No Lead; 30 yrs later

[30ccpickup]

I have been reading Restorer magazines that date back to the eighties. I noticed, it was a huge concern regarding no more lead in gas. The discussions were quite similar to the debate on ethanol in gas today. Being 30 something years later, has anyone notice a problem with our A’s; and to take it a step further, has it ruined the valves in the muscle cars like predicted?

Paul

[Jason in TX]

WHAT? They are going to remove the lead from gas???? Argh!!!


Doing fine here!

[400A-64]

Am I correct that there was NO LEAD in the gas when the Model A was new?? Most of us have installed SS valves....hard to tell if there was a problem or not....
Bruce Davis

[H. L. Chauvin]

Humble opinion:

Non-leaded gas used to be called "White Gas" in some areas -- highly recommended in vintage outboard motors years ago. Used in vintage cars also with no problems -- spark plug lobbyists hated non-leaded gas.

It was once sold by Amoco -- ran a Model A "everyday" on non-leaded gas for 12 years -- old C-4 plugs were always clean, & never a valve problem.

If one repeats something that is not true often enough, appears it becomes Doctrine.

For example, today, it is said that George Washington was bled to death because medical science at that time thought bleeding was helpful -- also eggs today: one day good for consumption, next day bad -- appears people really don't change much over time in offering their "free" advice.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

No, I'm not past my usual early morning hum drums, but "in the day," I'll betcha" they just added a splash of LEAD, and some food coloring, and made a BIG DEAL about it!! Shell gas now has a splash of NITROGEN IN IT!! (I WASN'T BORN YESTERDAY!) Think I'll put some GREEN food coloring in my gas and play with friend's minds!! Bill W.

[MrTube]

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Speaking of that what does nitrogen do in gasoline? Take up space?
I thought it was an inert gas?

next, Eggs are one of natures best foods and the "A" doesn't need and never needed lead of any kind.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Speaking of that what does nitrogen do in gasoline? Take up space?
I thought it was an inert gas?

next, Eggs are one of natures best foods and the "A" doesn't need and never needed lead of any kind.

MR TUBE!
I appreciate you! you are a BRILLIANT common sense thinker. Bill W.

[ford1]

im old enough to remember when they charged an extra nickle for putting lead in the gas, and im still old enought to remember them charging an extra nickle to take it out, gotta love the tree huggers and big oil, lol, lead was added when the compression ration in the engine went up, it slowed the combustion enough to stop the pinging, and was there to cushion the valves when they slam shut, newer engines dont need lead because all modern engines now have hardened seats, and the compression ratios are between 8 and 9 to one, they sloved the pinging problem by msking higher octane gas, and this is for bill williamson, lol, a little piece of history and an engineering thing, did you know the auto advance on the dist was once called an octane selector, ok bill now you and chief mull that one over, lol, an another thing, since they removed lead from the fuel, spark plugs will go 100,000 with out cleaning and last a lot longer

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by ford1

im old enough to remember when they charged an extra nickle for putting lead in the gas, and im still old enought to remember them charging an extra nickle to take it out, gotta love the tree huggers and big oil, lol, lead was added when the compression ration in the engine went up, it slowed the combustion enough to stop the pinging, and was there to cushion the valves when they slam shut, newer engines dont need lead because all modern engines now have hardened seats, and the compression ratios are between 8 and 9 to one, they sloved the pinging problem by msking higher octane gas, and this is for bill williamson, lol, a little piece of history and an engineering thing, did you know the auto advance on the dist was once called an octane selector, ok bill now you and chief mull that one over, lol, an another thing, since they removed lead from the fuel, spark plugs will go 100,000 with out cleaning and last a lot longer

Actually most modern engines for sale in cars today are in the 10-11:1 range. Many are over 10:1 and even turbocharged on top of it using direct injection to control pinging. The two cars I own have 10.5:1 compression and run regular 87 octane. The days of low compression like 8:1 and 9:1 are gone for the most part. Perhaps some trucks still run that low, I haven't looked in a while.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

MR TUBE!
I appreciate you! you are a BRILLIANT common sense thinker. Bill W.

Thanks Bill.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

We just bought a 2012 Focus 5 door hatchback this week. Engine is a 2.0 liter variable cam timing with direct fuel injection and I read in the owner's book, it has 12.0:1 compression! And Ford stipulates 87 Octane gasoline. Flex Fuel vehicle, will burn E-85, but the engine diagnostician and the salesman at the Ford garage that I spoke with BOTH advised 'Stay away from that crap don't use it."

First fill up today, and it IS 40MPG absolutely love the car!! Engineered in Germany, they brought the technology over here and are building it in Michigan.

I was looking at a Mazda that was 12:1 compression, maybe the same engine?

[KR500]

Nitrogen in gas is pretty funny as a selling point. Nitrogen makes up 78% of the air here on earth, so I would say we all have nitrogen in us. Lead was developed in the 1930's to add to gasoline by DuPont I believe and worked to keep valves and other engine components exposed to combustion products. Octane in the 1930's was about 60-65 and was measured differently than today. As companies raised compression ratios and performance a better grade and higher octane was needed for a controlled burn and anti-knocking problems. I remember them(The Government) stipulsting that instead of the 1 gram of lead being added to gasoline they wanted it reduced to .1 of a gram per gallon. The fight and arguments of valve recession proliferated until what we have today. Not only no lead, although other bromides have been added to take the place of lead, but the fuel today has terrible storage lifes, hence the StaBil and Seafoam products, not to mention nitrile rubber fuel resistant hose which won't turn mushy after exposure to some of the methanol fuels. Bright side, we can still buy gasoline to get our cars around. What happens when Hydrogen becomes our main fuel?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by ford1

im old enough to remember when they charged an extra nickle for putting lead in the gas, and im still old enought to remember them charging an extra nickle to take it out, gotta love the tree huggers and big oil, lol, lead was added when the compression ration in the engine went up, it slowed the combustion enough to stop the pinging, and was there to cushion the valves when they slam shut, newer engines dont need lead because all modern engines now have hardened seats, and the compression ratios are between 8 and 9 to one, they sloved the pinging problem by msking higher octane gas, and this is for bill williamson, lol, a little piece of history and an engineering thing, did you know the auto advance on the dist was once called an octane selector, ok bill now you and chief mull that one over, lol, an another thing, since they removed lead from the fuel, spark plugs will go 100,000 with out cleaning and last a lot longer

B.R,
Can't MULL/w Chief anymore, tried, but he can't pickup mullin' signals there! We both recomember vac advances with even the little knurled adj. wheel to de-ping the danged thing. Some old chev's had them. I worked on a lot of the Lucas equipped Limey Iron with the lil' funny kunurled kunob.
By the way, how ooooold are you? I'm a young 76 1/2. B.J.W.

[Geo. H]

I don't know why Nitrogen would be added to gasoline, but it is NOT an inert gas. Some combinations of Nitrogen are explosive, as in nitrates. Inert gases such as Helium will not combine with anything. I'm 78. but I still remember a little freshman chemistry.

[40 Deluxe]

"Auto" or centrifugal advance was never called an "octane selector"! The "octane selector" was just a way to set initial or base timing. The above mentioned six cylinder Chevies had a slot with numbers at the base of the distributor. You'd loosen the hold down bolt and turn the distributor to the 'minus' side to stop ping or the 'plus' side if you wanted more timing. Then remember the number you set it at for future reference. The knurled knob" was a grease cup for lubing the shaft bushing. Flathead Fords had a screw on the side of the distributor you could loosen and slide up or down to increase or decrease timing a few degrees.

[dumb person]

Lucas distributors have a knurled knob on the vacuum advance to change the timing a little.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Geo. H

I don't know why Nitrogen would be added to gasoline, but it is NOT an inert gas. Some combinations of Nitrogen are explosive, as in nitrates. Inert gases such as Helium will not combine with anything. I'm 78. but I still remember a little freshman chemistry.

Ok, so its mostly an inert gas at standard conditions...

Elemental nitrogen is a colorless, odorless, tasteless, and mostly inert diatomic gas at standard conditions, constituting 78.09% by volume of Earth's atmosphere.

[Uncle Bob]

The nitrogen compounds are the detergent portion of the gasoline mixture, primarily to control valve deposits.

Lead compounds were added begining in the mid '30s to increase octane. "Lubricating" or "cushioning" valves/seats was a side result, not an intended result. In actuality the lead deposits "dirtied" the area and prevented the exhaust valve face from welding to the seat (welders will understand this best).

Bromide compounds were added to leaded gasolines to scavenge out excess lead to prevent too much deposition of the lead solids (they lowered the boiling point so the lead stayed a vapor and exited with the rest of the exhaust gases). A side note, these bromide compounds would join with h2o formed in the combustion process resulting in a mild acid that shortened the life of such things as spark plugs and exhaust systems.