Classtique Upholstery

[JayJay]

Another data point - I just placed an order with Classtique for a complete interior for my '30 Town Sedan that I'm restoring. Mike gave me an estimated ship date of 11/19/2024, so he's a year out. He told me that if he can get some good workers in it might be earlier, but that's apparently what his constraint is. (BTW, same story I heard from Steve Mitchell, seems to be a recurring theme.)

I thought I had heard somewhere that Classtique was able to ship the side panels and headliner well in advance of the seat covers. I asked Mike about that and he told me there is no truth to that, he makes the entire order at one time. Which makes sense to me.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Here is where many of us are struggling right now, -is it is not a lack of being able to hire someone. It is the lack of finding anyone that has the ability.

Training is the key to making good workers, ...however I am finding the issue is now there are people that are willing to work however they honestly do not have the skillset. I am basically running wide-open from 6:00AM until 6:00PM just trying to stay ahead of 4 employees. I have never been so exhausted in my entire life as what I am experiencing now. I am finding that 'problem solving' abilities are basically non-existent, ...not only in my line of work but in many of the vendors I deal with. In a nutshell, Smart Phones have ruined society where memorization and reasoning are a thing of the past. In the case of Mike, imagine if he spends 50% of his time for a whole year training an employee (-watching over their shoulder, showing by example, explaining, etc.) and just about the time that employee is competent to make a kit with minimal supervision, that employee decides to change careers leaving Mike with a year of wasted efforts. It isn't just Mike, -or me. It is so many different vendors and suppliers I deal with on a daily basis. I have a Roadster that we are 95% completed with but needed to respray a deck lid door. My local paint store had eliminated the Concept paint line about two years ago. I began using a different paint store in a neighboring state however 3 months ago they quit handling PPG Concept. Three different paint stores have tried matching this paint and no one has the talent or ability to match the existing paint. Their solution is for us to repaint the vehicle!! Multiply similar problems with tire manufacturers, chrome shops, engine part suppliers, etc., etc., and you quickly find this hobby is losing ground. Ohh, and my friend who owns a transmission shop is ready to close his doors because of the same basic reasons.

[David in San Antonio]

I imagine myself back at age 17 joining a full blown, structured apprenticeship program at a restoration shop. Did this exist in the US? The closest thing I know of today is the college that prepares students to work in restoration, focusing on a specific discipline such as metal shaping, interiors, or drivetrain.
I wonder if young people from outside the US would view a formal apprenticeships as an attractive proposition? It would need to either provide housing and meals, or sufficient interim income to cover it. Anyway, just letting my mind wander.

[holdover]

I understand the help problem. I have been retired since 2008 and spend my time restoring Model A's and classic Mustangs. I use to teach at the local HS, teaching welding, machining, building trades and automotive. A few months ago I was asked if I would substitute as a certified teacher in the vocational education programs, due to lack of lab certified substitute teachers. I agreed. Without a certified instructor the students can not go into the labs. There are 20 students in each of the labs which have a potential to learn a trade. Within each group there are only about 10 students that have any interest in learning. The welding group especially has the opportunity to get certified and leave school making great pay. I would think that these young adults would understand that they are missing a great opportunity.

[Marshall V. Daut]

What??? Learn a trade, get a job, move out of Mom and Dad's free basement room and actually WORK for a living?? What a radical idea!!! What are you smoking???
Marshall

[ModelA29]

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When our daughter was in high school (she's 51 now) the district shut down all the shop classes and even home economics for the girls. They went heavy into college prep classes. The dropout count increased when the students who could get an A in shop but hadn't a clue about trig decided to start flipping burgers or pumping gas.


Baldwin Park school district saw the problem and went heavy into automotive education with a lot of support from the industry. https://architizer.com/projects/bald...nology-center/
They even offer adult ed - https://bpace.bpusd.net/apps/pages/i...REC_ID=1975709

[rotorwrench]

I remember that I started seeing more problems with kids as far back as the early 70s. It was becoming more acceptable for couples to get a divorce. There was a stigma to it before that time but after the disaster that was the Vietnam War, kids started to change and less parental supervision was the beginning to show results. The high school I went to started shutting down their vocational courses due to lack of both student and parental interest. Young adults had to go in the military to be able to afford any higher learning to include trade schools. Many young adults don't want to join up any more. Too many single and over protective parents is having it's affect in the modern era. Mass communication devices are a distraction in a lot of workplaces so they don't help at all in this respect.

Businesses that deal with the old car hobby have the ebb and flow attached to the economic conditions at any given time. I just hope they survive this odd situation we are having currently. I also hope we don't lose a whole generation of potential antique auto inthusiasts. We are the ones that have to spark that interest in any way we can.

[Gene F]

I'd like to just say something about the employer side of this situation. I am guessing we all have had an employer that hired a manager that was terrible. Perhaps the owner was terrible. Yes I read these comments and I agree with them all. In fact I think a lot of these above really are just the tip of the iceberg.

However I have worked for employers/managers that were just terrible, and drove all the best people away. I worked for one company, and the saying was "we train the best, and keep the rest".

I had a nice discussion with a recruiter at my last company. We were getting ready to start a new business unit. I asked her out of a pool of 60 people how many will still be here in a year. Her answer was less than 10. Likely range will be 3 to 8 Gene. I asked her if hiring people about 50 or older tend to stay. Her answer was yes, and in some cases even 45 and up. She said it was that way the last two places (diff type of companies and diff state) she work and hired for.

Just something to think about. We can see that these issues effect us all. And supply chain effects our economy.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I remember that I started seeing more problems with kids as far back as the early 70s. It was becoming more acceptable for couples to get a divorce. There was a stigma to it before that time but after the disaster that was the Vietnam War, kids started to change and less parental supervision was the beginning to show results. The high school I went to started shutting down their vocational courses due to lack of both student and parental interest. Young adults had to go in the military to be able to afford any higher learning to include trade schools. Many young adults don't want to join up any more. Too many single and over protective parents is having it's affect in the modern era. Mass communication devices are a distraction in a lot of workplaces so they don't help at all in this respect.

Businesses that deal with the old car hobby have the ebb and flow attached to the economic conditions at any given time. I just hope they survive this odd situation we are having currently. I also hope we don't lose a whole generation of potential antique auto inthusiasts. We are the ones that have to spark that interest in any way we can.

edit

[Oldbluoval]

Times they is ah changin’

And I don’t like any of it!!!

[ronn]

Well said Brent..........


and now the problem of painting your roadster.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I remember that I started seeing more problems with kids as far back as the early 70s. It was becoming more acceptable for couples to get a divorce. .

I think it began when it started to take 2 incomes to achieve the American Dream.
The house my parents built in SoCal in 1954 cost 12 grand today it's worth about 900,000. My mom stayed at home until my sister and I were both in high school. She went to work and they saved her money to buy a retirement motorhome. In the 2 families across the street one worked and the other stayed home. The wives got into a keep up with the Jones thing and the guy whose wife didn't work finally got a divorce because she was driving him to the poorhouse. Of course once people had 2 incomes the powers to be raised the prices of everything - heaven forbid a taxpayer should advance out of the middle class.

[JayJay]

I think that US society has done our young folks a disservice with the message that "you ain't worth anything without a college degree". This started after WWII with the introduction of the GI bill. All of a sudden it became desirable to get a college degree and thus a "proper" white collar job. The trades became devalued, and with it became the devaluation of trade education in high schools. That attitude was what a lot of baby boomers (including me) were brought up on, and that has in turn been pushed down to their children. Today we end up with a lot of folks in college who really should not be there, and as a consequence a lot of garbage college degrees that aren't worth the paper they're written on and do nothing to prepare young people for real life. Today we are at the predictable end point of that societal devaluation of the trades.

Couple that with the shift to a fully volunteer armed forces, we no longer have individuals who entered the military more or less involuntarily and were given a trade whether they wanted it or not. I'm not in any way advocating that we reinstitute the draft, I'm just saying that a stopping point in a young adult's career for two to four years in the military is no longer viewed as normal or desirable.

My $0.02 worth, and likely overpayment at that.

[CarlG]

In High School I took Wood Shop, Metal Shop, Driver's Training, and Auto Mechanics. Haven't regretted any of that.

I don't think any of that was offered to my boys except maybe Driver's Training. Even that isn't offered any more.

[dave in australia]

It's not just in the USA, we have a similar problem here in Australia. I work at a small rural, dual brand, dealership. We have six immigrant mechanics, all good employees, and two Aussie mechanics. Why? because we couldn't get any Aussie mechanics to sign up. We're not the only ones. One workshop up the road from us has been advertising for over two years. When there is more money being a delivery driver than being a mechanic, it's going to be hard to find employees. Also, FIFO mine work pays about three to four times as much per hour, so that's where they go. Then there is the attitude that you need year twelve education as a minimum, I don't know the equivalent in USA education, but it is the year level for seventeen to eighteen year olds. Plus quite a few want to start at the top instead of doing the hard yards at the start. Crazy times, and I don't see much improving soon.

[ronn]

after reading all of this, I believe it pays to become a bank robber.


Much more lucrative!

[old31]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

What??? Learn a trade, get a job, move out of Mom and Dad's free basement room and actually WORK for a living?? What a radical idea!!! What are you smoking???
Marshall

Well said Marshall.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by holdover

I understand the help problem. I have been retired since 2008 and spend my time restoring Model A's and classic Mustangs. I use to teach at the local HS, teaching welding, machining, building trades and automotive. A few months ago I was asked if I would substitute as a certified teacher in the vocational education programs, due to lack of lab certified substitute teachers. I agreed. Without a certified instructor the students can not go into the labs. There are 20 students in each of the labs which have a potential to learn a trade. Within each group there are only about 10 students that have any interest in learning. The welding group especially has the opportunity to get certified and leave school making great pay. I would think that these young adults would understand that they are missing a great opportunity.

The issue around here is there are a small percentage of students who do show ambition to learn however they lack the motor skills to be able to do the job efficiently. So while they are willing to be trained, the majority are untrainable. The local colleges (-one of which I am on their advisory board) now tell their goal with the student is to expose them to what it takes in the industry. Gone are the days where they train them for the industry.

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

What??? Learn a trade, get a job, move out of Mom and Dad's free basement room and actually WORK for a living?? What a radical idea!!! What are you smoking???
Marshall

Originally Posted by TerryO

If the gov't quit giving them a check each month they would get hungry and have to either steal or work...until then things won't change...

TOB

Actualy Marshall/Terry, around here most (-if not all) of the government subsidies have stopped being handed out. Now people are out looking for work. All the time I get people wanting a job here however their issue is they do not have any mechanical skills necessary to do the job. Truth being told, they struggle even knowing the the very basics such as fractional wrench sizes, nor can they hold a screwdriver or a hammer effectively, ...and honestly most lack memory retention. These basic skills needed to be taught when they children. One other factor is, their cost of living is such that they must make a strong enough wage to support their obligations however their lack of skills affect their amount of pay. While the fault is definitely theirs, it is the employer/business who comes up on the short-end of the deal.

Originally Posted by Gene F

I'd like to just say something about the employer side of this situation. I am guessing we all have had an employer that hired a manager that was terrible. Perhaps the owner was terrible. Yes I read these comments and I agree with them all. In fact I think a lot of these above really are just the tip of the iceberg.

However I have worked for employers/managers that were just terrible, and drove all the best people away. I worked for one company, and the saying was "we train the best, and keep the rest".

I had a nice discussion with a recruiter at my last company. We were getting ready to start a new business unit. I asked her out of a pool of 60 people how many will still be here in a year. Her answer was less than 10. Likely range will be 3 to 8 Gene. I asked her if hiring people about 50 or older tend to stay. Her answer was yes, and in some cases even 45 and up. She said it was that way the last two places (diff type of companies and diff state) she work and hired for.

Just something to think about. We can see that these issues effect us all. And supply chain effects our economy.

This is VERY true. Loyalty is almost non-existent in the workforce today. The mindset of 'lack of responsibility' even expands past the workplace into their households with responsibilities such as marriage commitments, loan repayments, child raising, fiscal management, etc. This lack of maturity is beyond rampant today. So the 'expectation mindset' of today is that an employee expects their workplace company to train them ...however the company sees this as a financial burden many are unwilling to take. When the company agrees to take on that burden with the hope that the employee will be productive enough one day for them to see a ROI, often times the employee becomes bored and leaves the company for a new career path. In my situation, I am absolutely overwhelmed trying to train 4 people simultaneously. Back in the late 90s when I started this business, it took me a year or so to train a couple of guys who then stayed with me for years. Then I kept bringing on new people that 3 helped train, and then the 4th helped train the 5th, and so on. It was only after the 3rd trained employee did I become profitable. In speaking with other business owners in my area, they are experiencing the same thing. The future is definitely bleek for the trades industries.

[alexiskai]

I'm trying to stay out of this discussion, but I will say that I think a lot of the people who used to go into these industries, and had the brains to succeed in them, now go into other lines of work where they get paid more and the work environment is nicer.

I work in IT and we have plenty of young people on staff who are creative problem solvers, easily trainable, high ROI, self-taught or certified through vocational schools. Many of them have technical hobbies like electronics and programming.

I think in a pre-computer age many of them would have gravitated toward mechanical trades, industrial design, engineering, etc. But they make a higher salary here than they would in most restoration shops, and their skills are transferable if they have to move due to family commitments.

[Planojc]

As a kid in the 50's and 60's I learned many skills by working on my old car, just to keep it running. Changing the points, plugs, condenser, rebuilding the carburetor, etc. taught me a lot, but the cars today are not anywhere easy to work on. Even the dealerships can't fix them.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"...after reading all of this, I believe it pays to become a bank robber."

Actually asked of Great Depression era bank robber Willie Sutton during one of his incarcerations:
Reporter: "Why do you rob banks?
Sutton: "Because that's where the money is."

Hard to argue with that logic. This quip is often attributed to John Dillinger. But if he did say that, he was not the first one to do so.
Marshall

[Brubaker]

Loooking at the problem from a slightly different angle, I wish there was a way to part-time mentor someone on the restoration skills or occupations soon to be needed such as upholstery and many other specialized skills pertinent to antique auto restoration.
Personally speaking, I cannot leave my current job/profession for ~10 years but could dedicate some time to learn a new specific skill. Tough to pull-off from the cooperator's end. Using Mike at Classtique as an example, he's so busy he couldn't exactly conduct a MasterClass or Zoom session to tutor (although if he did I'd be first in line!). I know just a 'pipe dream' but there is interest out there to help (somehow). Difficulty lies in matching 'need' with available 'help' (as always).

Bruce

[Sunny the Model A]

Originally Posted by oldbluoval

times they is ah changin’

and i don’t like any of it!!!

amen!

[Sunny the Model A]

Originally Posted by Planojc

As a kid in the 50's and 60's I learned many skills by working on my old car, just to keep it running. Changing the points, plugs, condenser, rebuilding the carburetor, etc. taught me a lot, but the cars today are not anywhere easy to work on. Even the dealerships can't fix them.

I'm only 21, but I learned the hard way how hard those jellybeans are to work on. I can't even look at the damn things without them chirping or freaking out that something else is wrong. That's the reason I drive an A Model Ford. I am not computer minded, give me an old Ford however and I can work on it with ease.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by Brubaker

Loooking at the problem from a slightly different angle, I wish there was a way to part-time mentor someone on the restoration skills or occupations soon to be needed such as upholstery and many other specialized skills pertinent to antique auto restoration.
Personally speaking, I cannot leave my current job/profession for ~10 years but could dedicate some time to learn a new specific skill. Tough to pull-off from the cooperator's end. Using Mike at Classtique as an example, he's so busy he couldn't exactly conduct a MasterClass or Zoom session to tutor (although if he did I'd be first in line!). I know just a 'pipe dream' but there is interest out there to help (somehow). Difficulty lies in matching 'need' with available 'help' (as always).

Bruce

Upholstery seems to be a dying art/trade. My grandfather, and his brother both were upholsterers, but I never learned it, and now they have long since been gone. I have his sheers, and his upholsters hammer but that is it. I was at a chapter meeting this summer, and a couple visited our meeting, and they made presentations on different things they offer. The host home, he had a coupe that they upholstered, and it looked even nicer than my Lebaron-Bonney.

My Grand-Father was an upholsterer for Curtis-Wright, and later Rockwell Aviation. He covered seats, and made things like wing covers. We always upholstered all our furniture. He learned doing furniture in a shop. His Brother lined caskets (before his death a result of US Coast Guard accident) for Belmont Casket Co.

There seems to be people that can weld, fabricate metal, and even paint.

[rotorwrench]

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I was on C-list one day and saw some sewing machines offered up by a local furniture manufacturer that was going into a new line of work. The owner had three Consew 206 models and one Pfaff. All were walking foot models with reverse. The guy was going into the medical clothing field and didn't need heavy machinery anymore. He was subbing a lot of stuff out to Vietnamese manufacturers anyway. I bought the best one of those machines and have never regretted it.

San Antonio used to have a Levi Strauss manufacturing plant. A large portion of the workers were 3rd or 4th generation Mexican lmmigrants, and they worked for what I consider to be normal union wages. The plant shut down back in the 2000s, and all the work went down into Mexico. A lot of good sewing machine operators were out of a job. All the machines went south too. Most workers had to either retire or find a new line of work. This is the way of the new globalist corporate world. There is no loyalty to the USA in that bunch.

[jrelliott]

You all are correct about problem solving skills and hands on experience. In 7th grade wood shop learned graphic design by doing mechanical drawings. Being able to see a 2 dimensional drawing and translating into a solid is a learned skill. Took wood shop in 7th and 8th grade. Still use a lot of those skills today as have a cabinet shop. Had to take two semesters of mechanical drawing in college for degree in EE/Computer science. After two years of college, dropped out and went into the Navy for Electronics Technician. The Navy taught us excellent trouble shooting skills. After the Navy was working at a small electronics company where we were taught how to use a vertical mill, metal lathe and various other tools. Got recruited by IBM as a technician, and eventually got a degree in EE/Computer science. In rebuilding my A, learned upholstery, welding, and painting. Had learned about cars as a youngster with my father's help. Not every kid is college material. There are very many trades where you can earn a good living and be able to leave work and not think about the job the next day. Myself ended up as a engineer designing tests for ASIC computer chips which were on the cutting edge of technology. Looked forward to going into work each day for the challenges that I would encounter. Wish there was a way to instill that enthusiasm on the younger generation. You are correct that it is the parents that have created the younger folks that have no goals, or work ethic, and want hand outs. Lets go back to the principal, no work-no free meal.

[Marshall V. Daut]

The government paying younger workers NOT to work and giving them more money than they had earned at their jobs a couple years ago sent the wrong message to the wrong people at the wrong time in their lives, just when they were learning how to survive in the work-a-day world. It will take another generation to undo the damage that one act alone did to the younger work force, whose idea of work and its rewards are now completely skewed in the wrong direction. This is not a political or partisan party rant. It is a commentary on a very poor governmental decision that has seriously damaged our work force and our economic system. And we haven't seen the bottom of this pit yet.
Marshall

[ronn]

Alex, well said. Couldnt agree more.


Marshall I love to hear those old quips. So many were spot on and really hard to argue with!

[Jeff/Illinois]

I understand Mike up at Classtique's is very good at what he does, and very busy at his shop, but give me a refresher on this subject....

For many years LeBarron Bonney was well known and used for their interior services. So exactly just why did they close? It seems like there is enough business out there for several shops/suppliers?

If God forbid something happens to Mike we are all in a world of hurt.

[Synchro909]

I hear what all of you guys are saying but I have a different take on why it is so. For the past few decades, it has not been necessary to win a race to get a prize - everybody gets one. That has led to a generation of self entitled brats who have learned that they are just as good, maybe better than everybody else. They have been told "You can do anything you like." so many times they heartily believe it. The problem is, they have never been told the rest of it like we were back in the 1950s and 60s. "You can do anything you like SO LONG AS IT DOESN'T HARM ANYBODY ELSE." Without the last bit, the first is very dangerous and we are just starting to see that it is. But not by most.
The same thing applies in the class room. A student does not need to pass the end of year exam (even if they have exams) to move on the the next year level so the further you go, the greater are the number of dumb kids mixed in the class holding back those who do have a few IQ points.
Teachers are not held in high regard over here and although some are excellent, too many should not be teaching. 2 years after I completed my secondary school education and entered university, I found myself in the same mathematics lecture hall as my secondary school maths teacher. He was an excellent teacher but I wonder how much better he would have been if he had a better understanding of mathematics when he taught us.
Having just re read this, I realise that the old saying is dead right. "A fish rots from the head" It is clear to me that our western world is and has been in decline for years and it is those at the "top" who are to blame or maybe it is us, after all, we voted them in there.

[alexiskai]

A 2019 study by the University of Michigan stated that "the labor-force participation rate of prime-age
American men has decreased in a near-continuous fashion from 97.2% in 1960 to 88.2% in 2015—a cumulative decline of 9 percentage points. Considering that the population of prime-age men in 2015 was around 61.4 million, the secular decline in participation implies a cumulative loss of 5.53 million men from the prime-age workforce."

However, they found that the declining rate of labor force participation (LFP) by young men was not significantly influenced by going on welfare (though this did affect older men) or by declining inflation-adjusted wages (the wages have declined but there's no causal connection with LFP).

They also found that there was "little evidence that average skill levels in the high-school-dropout and high-school-graduate populations declined" between those born around 1960 and those born around 1980, even though LFP had declined during the intervening 20 years.

What they did find was that declining LFP among less-educated young men seemed to be connected to two things:
1. increased rates of women entering the labor market between 1970 and 2015 and competing against less-educated men for unskilled jobs, particularly in manufacturing, and
2. men are getting married later.

The authors of the study pointed to #2 in particular as an under-appreciated driver of reductions in young male LFP. They found that starting a family was a significant incentive for young men to obtain steady employment, so as men in this age cohort became less likely over the decades to be married, it became less important to them to move out of their parents' house. When they did get married, they delayed having kids for longer, which allowed a greater proportion of non-working men to live off their spouse's income.

To quote from the study:

As of 2015, only white high school graduates above age 35 were married a majority of the time... While parental co-residence was a rare event in 1970, by 2015 over 25% of whites and 40% of blacks aged 25–34 lived with a parent... Previous work has associated marriage with a decline in irresponsible male behavior, such as crime and excessive drug and alcohol use... Male participation in the labor force may also be a socially responsible activity that, like the avoidance of pathological behaviors, is intertwined with stable marriage. To the extent that the gains from marriage depend on male earnings, married men face an additional incentive to find and maintain a job. Indeed, the securing of gainful employment may even be
stipulated by men’s (explicit or implicit) marital contracts with their wives.

Link to the study if you want more info:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7745920/

[midgetracer]

" these damn kids these days; They don't want to work and expect everything for nothing." Same thing I heard when I was a teenager. I'm sure my parents heard that same thing when they were teenagers. I'm 75, but I ran a business for most of my life and I found that if you treated your employees as the valuable assets that they were, they would work really hard and make you lots of money that you could share with them. Have we become unappreciative of the younger generation. Personally I do not see things as changed from previous generations. appreciation and kindness go along way to build loyalty and remember that none of us were born competent without training. Just my humble opinion.

[Synchro909]

You make a good point, midget.

[ronn]

For many years LeBarron Bonney was well known and used for their interior services. So exactly just why did they close? It seems like there is enough business out there for several shops/supplier?


Unskilled labor, as Brent so aptly mentioned at the beginning of this thread......
if you cant find people who understand the skill set, then you have no product.


What is entirely surprising to me, is that some of these kits arent made off shore and we could all complain about the quality. Surely india could make cheap upholstery kits?

[German guy]

It is a reality that there is a shortage of skilled workers but I would hesitate to blame it on 'smart phones' or any other electronic media. Easy access to information does not negatively impact the application of higher order skills (think Bloom's Taxonomy) such as Assessment, Evaluation, or Creativity. These adult thinking skills are as important to mechanical skill development as they are to academic work. This deficit comes from a society ravaged by the idea that 'believing' is the same as 'knowing', and that everyone's opinion is of equal value. There is an absence of epistemological methodology in the parts of society which have not moved into higher education...with the average US high school grad leaving 12 years of school reading at or below the 6th grade level (depending on state...with Texas and many southern states resting at the 4th grade level) and never having been exposed to the rigors of having to validate an opinion with fact. It becomes very difficult to train an apprentice who is convinced that his/her opinion is as valid as the master mechanic. This becomes increasingly problematic when higher salaries and benefits are available elsewhere. The US is suffering far more than other industrial countries which have maintained a more rigid education system. "Diplomas for everyone" simply does not work.

[Chuck Kuntz]

Did anyone else note that the quality of LB interiors had declined in recent years. The last one I purchased for my 36 coupe did not fit well at all. I also purchased one for my 33 tudor but have not got around to installing it as yet. My Dad and I had installed several LB interiors in the 70's and 80's with no real problems.

[Marshall V. Daut]

'Gotta echo Chuck's sentiments. I saw the same alarming downward trend in quality over the final years of LB. Boy, were those kits great in the 1960's and 70's, though - and affordable! An ENTIRE new top assembly with material for a '30-31 DeLuxe Roadster for $495??? Even at pre-inflationary dollars, that was a deal. And the quality and fit were excellent. 'Really miss those days, too. LB was one vendor that could always be counted on in a positive way.
Marshall

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by German guy

It is a reality that there is a shortage of skilled workers but I would hesitate to blame it on 'smart phones' or any other electronic media. Easy access to information does not negatively impact the application of higher order skills (think Bloom's Taxonomy) such as Assessment, Evaluation, or Creativity. These adult thinking skills are as important to mechanical skill development as they are to academic work. This deficit comes from a society ravaged by the idea that 'believing' is the same as 'knowing', and that everyone's opinion is of equal value. There is an absence of epistemological methodology in the parts of society which have not moved into higher education...with the average US high school grad leaving 12 years of school reading at or below the 6th grade level (depending on state...with Texas and many southern states resting at the 4th grade level) and never having been exposed to the rigors of having to validate an opinion with fact. It becomes very difficult to train an apprentice who is convinced that his/her opinion is as valid as the master mechanic. This becomes increasingly problematic when higher salaries and benefits are available elsewhere. The US is suffering far more than other industrial countries which have maintained a more rigid education system. "Diplomas for everyone" simply does not work.

I definitely agree with you on many of these thoughts.

I do have a question though. You made the statement that many students graduate high school reading at a level of a 6th grader. Who established the benchmark for what a 6th grade level is? Since generally nothing seeming is as it really was any longer (i.e.: 50 is the new 40, etc.), has the Regents now lowered the benchmark of a 12th grade education?

Ohh, and the reason why I say the 'smart phone' has ruined this country is because much of what you are saying was a direct result of usage of a smart phone. For example, some 50 years ago as a teenager, I probably had 40-50 telephone numbers memorized of friends & family. I struggle remembering my own telephone number now since my 'smart phone' remembers them for me. When I was in school, I memorized how a word was spelled, -and even learned to recognize if a word was misspelled. Now, my 'smart phone' corrects my spelling (-whether I want to or not). Some 50+ years ago I needed to be able to do math (addition, subtraction, multiplcation,etc.) in my head when calculating numbers required for everyday tasks. My 'smart phone' as taken the need for us to be able to accurately do math in our head. A great for example, when we had an appointment to keep, we factored in the approximate distance, speed traveled, and how much factor for delays to know when to leave to go to an appointment. Now I tell my 'smart phone' where I want to go (-not the address necessarily but the place) and my phone tells me when I will arrive and how to get there. Sure all of these examples are for convenience, but we are now seeing the effects of how our problem solving abilities, and/or our memorizational or knowledge retaining skills have greatly deteriorated. People's nature is to be lazy, ...if enabled to be lazy. It is my opinion the use of the 'smart phone' has enabled more people to become lazy instead of them becoming smarter.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"...but we are now seeing the effects of how our problem solving abilities, and/or our memorizational or knowledge retaining skills have greatly deteriorated."

What you don't use, you lose.
Marshall

[alexiskai]

The most recent nationwide review of literacy rates is being done by PIAAC and you can find their data here. The common shorthand "6th-grade level" corresponds to Level 2 on the PIAAC map, so if you search for the percentage of adults in some age range who are at or above Level 3, and take the complement, that gives you the percentage of adults at or below the 6th-grade level.

Talking about literacy rates at the national level obscures more than it clarifies. Literacy rates are much higher in cities; they tend to be lower in areas with a lot of immigrants. At the county level, literacy rates correlate closely with poverty. For example, in Carter County TN, the percentage of adults reading at or below a 6th-grade level is 69%. Step across the state line into Watauga County NC and that number drops to 46%.

Another thing to keep in mind is that declining educational metrics are muddied by the fact that over the decades more people have completed schooling who would previously have left early. Someone who graduates high school with low literacy may have achieved that level at an earlier age and then simply plateaued. In the '60s that guy might have left school to work in a factory and earn money instead of killing time in the classroom, but now he sticks it out and is likely encouraged to try for an associates' degree.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Not to continue flogging a dead horse here - although some horses NEED to be flogged post-mortem - but one well-known and oft-published indicator of the declining literacy and reading comprehension skills (and frighteningly possibly also the intelligence?) of the upcoming generations in this country during the last 40 years has been the periodic lowering of the standards for college SAT test scores in order to qualify for college entrance. Test score results continued to drop noticeably during these years, when "relevant" feel-good-about-yourself courses replaced the traditional cirriculum of science, math and English composition courses, leaving more and more students technically unqualified to be accepted by colleges. The solution? Simply lower the minimum score requirements to fit the scores so that more students would qualify. Easy-peasey, right? You know how THAT has turned out for this country! This lowering of the standards to validate the lowest common denominator reinforces the old adage that for every complicated, difficult-to-solve problem, there is a simple, easy-to-understand WRONG answer. And lowering the SAT score qualifications certainly proves that! It's like putting a Band-Aid over an open cancer sore: the problem is still there right beneath the surface.
Marshall

[ronn]

very good discussion


I am enjoying everyones input on this thread.

[Keith True]

I learned to read at a very young age,long before the first grade.It was just something I liked to do.I think it's the learning process I like,not the end result.I never got into the smart phone thing,I open my phone and talk when it rings,it doesn't have a TV screen or a typewriter on it.I was building my new house and was laying out some planks to figure some angles and a friend said give me the height,length,and a couple of other figures and I will hand you an answer.He came up with the same thing I did in a minute or two.I asked him how he arrived at that answer and he said he didn't care,he didn't have to know all that,he just wanted an answer.I want to know the process.The phone doesn't let you think for yourself.It may tell you how to put upholstery on a set of seat springs,but it doesn't tell you what is acceptable for weak springs,to make sure the rust is dealt with on them,eyt.I've seen cushions with sharp wires pokng out through the material because the phone didn't tell them to look for it beforehand.

[Hitman]

This is too far off topic for me!

It's so far off topic, it reminds me of the discussions of how the hobby is dying and our cars will never be worth anything, my kids don't want them, blah, blah, blah. That conversation has been going on for decades, so will this one. Yet everything will kind of remain the same long after we're gone.

I thought we were talking about upholstery!

[alexiskai]

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Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

one well-known and oft-published indicator of the declining literacy and reading comprehension skills (and frighteningly possibly also the intelligence?) of the upcoming generations in this country during the last 40 years has been the periodic lowering of the standards for college SAT test scores in order to qualify for college entrance. Test score results continued to drop noticeably during these years, when "relevant" feel-good-about-yourself courses replaced the traditional cirriculum of science, math and English composition courses, leaving more and more students technically unqualified to be accepted by colleges.

Both of these claims are factually false. The average score on the critical reading section of the SAT was 502 in 1980, 500 in 1990, 505 in 2000, and 500 in 2010. Scores on the math section actually went up during that time.

Far from replacing the core curriculum, over the past 20 years K-12 schools have doubled down on the core curriculum because they're trying to meet standards set by No Child Left Behind and other federal reform efforts. Schools have gutted arts classes, gym classes, elementary recess, and yes, shop classes, so kids can spend more time in remedial math and reading. All to little effect, I might add.

[BillCNC]

I was thinking about refreshing my interior because the seat tops and backs (parts people contact) have small holes and tears. But if it's more than a year long waiting list, I think I'll buy some cheap fabric from Joann's and practice on making my own tops and backs. Once I'm satisfied I can do straight lines, I'll buy the correct fabric from Classtique Upholstery and have a go at it.

Worst case, I'm out about $500, but at least I'll have fun trying.

Regards
Bill

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

I was thinking about refreshing my interior because the seat tops and backs (parts people contact) have small holes and tears. But if it's more than a year long waiting list, I think I'll buy some cheap fabric from Joann's and practice on making my own tops and backs. Once I'm satisfied I can do straight lines, I'll buy the correct fabric from Classtique Upholstery and have a go at it.

Worst case, I'm out about $500, but at least I'll have fun trying.

Regards
Bill

Let us know how it turns out! I wouldn't think it would be too difficult on Tudor seats, but I'm not an upholstery person.

[rackops]

This is a rather interesting discussion for me as I'm one of those kids who grew up with no practical mechanical skills.

My dad learned electronics in the Navy during the Korean War and started collecting and restoring toy trains in the 50s. I used to watch him and marvel at all the neat things that could be done...but I never learned how to do them. Similarly, my other brother loved working on cars and restored a couple of military jeeps in the early 80s. Again...I enjoyed being part of the process, but never learned how to do any of it myself.

I joined the Navy and they thought I'd be a perfect candidate for going into the engineering department of ships. I had zero background in anything mechanical, but, for the sake of not failing at my job, learned quite a bit. I also went into the electronics side of things as well. That experience didn't completely translate into turning wrenches at home though.

I bought my first Model A in 2008 at the ripe age of 33. It was on this car that I learned to change the oil in a car for the first time. Because Model As reproduce, I ended up buying another one that happened to be a total basketcase. I invested a ton of time and money into that car in order to get it to a place where it could be sold, and eventually parted with it. That might have been one of the best educations though...having to actually turn wrenches in order to get the car sold (I was angry at buying the car and wanted it gone...long story...) I learned a lot.

I left the Navy and (shockingly enough) ended up in the power generation business, managing a couple of power plants. I learned a ton there about mechanical and electrical work and by the time I went back on active duty after six years, had a really great handle on at least managing people who turned wrenches.

Fast forward to me retiring from the Navy and I bought another Model A...and then another. BUT, this time 15 years after my first foray into Model As, I have a much better grasp on how the cars work and turning wrenches on them. I've shocked myself at my level of interest and enjoyment working on the cars and really getting into the weeds. I've taken educated stabs at restoring speedometers, rebuilding carburetors, serving as a MARC fine point apprentice judge at the last national meet, and plan on starting a ground-up restoration on my 1928 Phaeton here in the near future.

All of this preamble to make a couple of points:

1. Although many kids now aren't interested in old cars, people change and I wouldn't be surprised if we see an influx of interest in future years as people have more disposable time, money, and the freedom to pursue interests. I am far different as a 48 year old than I was as a 21 year old, and have dramatically increased my ability and capability working on these cars, even though the hobby has aged another 27 years in the process (these cars were only in their late 70s back then!)

2. I think everyone would be surprised if they knew the number of the current young generation who are involved in and are really good at hands-on work. Yes, I'm aware it's tough to find good people for a lot of things (I'm still trying to chase down my carpenter to finish some cabinets in my own house!) but there actually are young people who are good at some of the older trades. Having spent time as an engineering officer on small ships, as the logistics and material readiness officer for an aircraft carrier strike group, as well as managing power plants, I think we'd all be impressed at the number of young people who can turn wrenches, and more importantly enjoy the trades and are skilled at them. Now, where they go and what they do after the military is a different matter, but I was confident in our ability to keep ships afloat, operating, and keeping an air wing of 75 high tech aircraft in the sky.

3. The biggest change that we will see (at least in my prediction) is the demise of in-person clubs. Throughout the centuries, people have had clubs and organizations because they allowed them to interact with others who shared the same values and interests. Fast forward to now and today's population isn't nearly as keen on being part of groups that require in-person attendance. Perhaps I'm generalizing because I'm part of that generation and the thought of trying to squeeze in a Model A club meeting between work, being a husband, and running around trying to raise four small humans...it's tough to do. Not only that, but I know I can pose a question on here, or on the facebook groups, and within minutes get an answer, or offer some bit of my experience to someone else anywhere in the world. It's a changing world as far as in-person interactions are concerned, and in my opinion, only time will tell if our former and current in-person organizations will survive.

My three cents worth.

Dave

[Synchro909]

We have been giving the young generation a hard time largely, IMO because they don't know what we were taught even though it is not relevant o their lives these many decades since. I do however believe they have a shorter attention span because they are accustomed to instant gratification.
This video is a couple of 17 year old youths trying to work out how to use a dial telephone. It is 4 minutes long. I'd love to know how many here even bother to watch it and I doubt many will watch it trough. What was that about short attention spans?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkXDEdQ7fnM

[wrndln]

I agree with Marshal and Chuck about LB. Their recent quality before they went belly up has deteriorated. I am installing an upholstery kit from them for my 29 phaeton and it has had several problems with the back rest cover and the small curved panels inside the rear wheel wells. I haven't got to the seat cushions yet, but it appears there are going to be problems with them also. I bought the kit about 12 years ago and am now at the point of installing it. I should have bought the kit from Classtique like I did for my 28 special coupe.
Rusty Nelson

[Gene F]

#44 - yes

#42 - I attained my Associates Degree at the age of 60. My Son is in high-school, and they have a program that allows for some (advanced) classes to count towards associates degrees. I am encouraging him to get a jump=start on his college. He decided he wants to go, we did not decide for him.

College is not for everyone, and there is nothing wrong with learning a skill. I learned several, and they served me and my employers well.

#51 - BTW, I have a dial telephone on my desk right now, and use it regularly. One of the neighbors' grandkids saw it and asked "what is that thing"? LOL

[rotorwrench]

The old timers that established LB way back in the day eventually wanted to retire so they sold the business. The folks the purchased it payed some pretty good coin for it so I imagine there was some business loan involved with that purchase. I noticed that they started branching further into into the reproduction parts business as well. It may have been a combination of high monetary outflow coupled with slowing monetary in flow during the 2008 economic downturn. The sources of materials also hit the skids about that time.

For whatever reason, they went insolvent and had to file bankruptcy. SMS tried to purchase what was left out of bankruptcy but was outbid by Ecklers group. Ecklers sort of followed the same path into insolvency that LB did. I'm not sure what is going on with the Ecklers group but they aren't what they used to be. That shut the doors on Cartouche as well.

[Tinbasher]

Looks like the problem is everywhere. I taught the Autobody apprenticeship programe for 12 years and the main thing that stood out was finding that student that truly had the interest or the skill. out of 1200 students I had taught, 6 had the natural skill for the trade. Others with the interest would learn it. Most of the students where heading to the collision repair side of the trade but there where a few that wanted to get into custom or restoration work. I always tried to connect them with someone running a restoration shop or a custom shop. From that point it was up to them to make it happen. It was interesting that over the three intakes for the trade we would start with 120 students at the basic level, 60-80 students at the intermediate level and 25 - 40 in the advanced level. You can see how the interest dwindled as the work become more involved. Over the 5 year apprenticeship, the last segment the student had 9 months of time in left in the training and then would write there exam for there license. Then after another 5 or 6 years they would get proficient at the repairs. All for $20.00 to $25.00 per hour. That bearly covers the rent in the Toronto Ont. area. my thought. JP

[Tinbasher]

Hi Brent:
As for the colour, can they not scan the colour and get a place to start? Or can your painter go to the supplier and tint the colour to get the match.
JP

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Tinbasher

Hi Brent:
As for the colour, can they not scan the colour and get a place to start? Or can your painter go to the supplier and tint the colour to get the match.
JP

It very well may come to that. Our paint store is located in a neighboring state about 1 hour away.

[David in San Antonio]

The difference in behavior of young people today is a rational response to the changed environment in which they live. If they were born into our circumstances they would have our values, life experiences, attitudes and achievements.
The earliest ancient Greeks discoursed at length about how the younger generation was lazy, indifferent, lacked morals, were too weak to defend the country, unskilled and resentful of authority.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The old timers that established LB way back in the day eventually wanted to retire so they sold the business. The folks the purchased it payed some pretty good coin for it so I imagine there was some business loan involved with that purchase. I noticed that they started branching further into into the reproduction parts business as well. It may have been a combination of high monetary outflow coupled with slowing monetary in flow during the 2008 economic downturn. The sources of materials also hit the skids about that time.

For whatever reason, they went insolvent and had to file bankruptcy. SMS tried to purchase what was left out of bankruptcy but was outbid by Ecklers group. Ecklers sort of followed the same path into insolvency that LB did. I'm not sure what is going on with the Ecklers group but they aren't what they used to be. That shut the doors on Cartouche as well.

Kerby, check your PMs when you get a chance. No rush.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by David in San Antonio

The difference in behavior of young people today is a rational response to the changed environment in which they live. If they were born into our circumstances they would have our values, life experiences, attitudes and achievements.
The earliest ancient Greeks discoursed at length about how the younger generation was lazy, indifferent, lacked morals, were too weak to defend the country, unskilled and resentful of authority.

You have that history pretty well down. Young people need good mentors to help them out of the post puberty condition. I was fortunate to have good mentors when I went on from high school into the real world. I wouldn't have made it this far without each one of them. My Pop was a good man and a heroic survivor of WWII but he loved farming and I wanted to be an aircraft mechanic so I gravitated towards people that could help me get there.

I always try to instill this in young folks so they can get where they want to go. Just trying to pass it on.

[BillCNC]

Us Boomers began our skill development in a time were everything was repairable. The kids are learning their skills in a time were everything is replaceable.

What they do, I don't know, but show one a wrench or screwdriver, and it's as if they have seen a ghost.

Regards
Bill

[Oldbluoval]

BillCNC
That’s why the landfills are full and the oceans full of plastics
Environment endangered by our throw away society

[Tinbasher]

Well isn't that handy. JP

[BillCNC]

Originally Posted by Oldbluoval

BillCNC
That’s why the landfills are full and the oceans full of plastics
Environment endangered by our throw away society

Correct, a throw away society perpetuated by corporate greed.

Planed obsolescence, something our cars avoided when they were built and mfg's saw that in real time and began their plotting.

Regards
Bill

[Marshall V. Daut]

You can trace the concept of "planned obsolescence" in the automotive world back to GM Chairman Alfred P. Sloan in the late 1920's. The idea behind this concept was to create desire on the part of potential auto buyers for something new and different each year. In other words, create dissatisfaction with what they already had. That would equate to new sales each year for GM from repeat "dissatisfied" buyers.
So, the car that you are touting THIS YEAR as the best ever will be obsolete and unwanted in less than a year, necessitating buying a new best car ever? That's pretty much the way it was when I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's. The excitement over the new cars coming out in September relegated that trusty 11 month-old car in the garage a dinosaur that had to be replaced in order to satisfy one's personal ago - and to keep up with the Jonses on the block. I wonder when we finally got away from that nonsense and started keeping our cars longer than two years? Maybe when they started costing more than a new house in 1955 did?
Marshall

[Keith True]

Read about Henry Fords scrappage program.It's pretty interesting.Once you bought his car his aim was to have you use it for a while,trouble free,then scrap it and buy another one.Now on top of planned obsolescence we have tech advances leaving fairly new products becoming obsolete.I put some solar panels on the roof of a new home 8 years ago,the owner told me they have worked great,but they are really now obsolete.The new panels will make juice in the moonlight.His were the best available at the time.

[JayJay]

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Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

You can trace the concept of "planned obsolescence" in the automotive world back to GM Chairman Alfred P. Sloan in the late 1920's. The idea behind this concept was to create desire on the part of potential auto buyers for something new and different each year. In other words, create dissatisfaction with what they already had. That would equate to new sales each year for GM from repeat "dissatisfied" buyers.
So, the car that you are touting THIS YEAR as the best ever will be obsolete and unwanted in less than a year, necessitating buying a new best car ever? That's pretty much the way it was when I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's. The excitement over the new cars coming out in September relegated that trusty 11 month-old car in the garage a dinosaur that had to be replaced in order to satisfy one's personal ago - and to keep up with the Jonses on the block. I wonder when we finally got away from that nonsense and started keeping our cars longer than two years? Maybe when they started costing more than a new house in 1955 did?
Marshall

I remember in the ‘60s my dad (with me in tow) used to visit dealerships a few days before the official launch dates hoping to catch a preview of the new model year cars. He pretty much rotated cars every three years.

I think that nonsense disappeared just about the time that Japanese cars started making serious inroads into the US market in the ‘70s. All of a sudden buyers were faced with really crappy cars coming from Detroit (although there were exceptions, by and large the ‘70s were not really sterling offerings from US carmakers) coupled with solid, reliable cars that didn’t rattle, were economical to drive, and lasted over 100,000 miles. It took serious protectionism by the US government to avoid total loss of the US auto industry. Since then Ford has largely thrived, GM has contracted (remember Pontiac? remember Oldsmobile?), and the less said about Chrysler after that disaster with Fiat the better (they were so ashamed about that they changed the name of the company to Stellantis!).

Back to my father: GM guy all the way, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Buick, finally a series of Cadillacs. Replaced every three years. Me: other than Model As, last American car I owned was a 1990 Ford Taurus that got scrapped at 65,000 miles (four transaxles, head gasket, air conditioning compressor and heater core!). I’d gladly consider American again but my 20 year old Tundra and my wife’s 10 year old Prius are running great.

[dan]

Originally Posted by Brubaker

Loooking at the problem from a slightly different angle, I wish there was a way to part-time mentor someone on the restoration skills or occupations soon to be needed such as upholstery and many other specialized skills pertinent to antique auto restoration.
Personally speaking, I cannot leave my current job/profession for ~10 years but could dedicate some time to learn a new specific skill. Tough to pull-off from the cooperator's end. Using Mike at Classtique as an example, he's so busy he couldn't exactly conduct a MasterClass or Zoom session to tutor (although if he did I'd be first in line!). I know just a 'pipe dream' but there is interest out there to help (somehow). Difficulty lies in matching 'need' with available 'help' (as always).

Bruce

Bruce, I'm chiming in a little late here, but McPherson College offers "summer institute" classes that are like mini versions of their Auto Restoration courses. I know Kansas is a long drive from CA, but you might look into it. When I was getting my BS from Mac College, I talked to some of the summer institute participants and they were all pleased with the classes and enthusiastic. I believe they offer sheet metal and upholstery classes each summer--I don't recall all the details because as an undergrad I wasn't paying much attention, but you can probably contact the AR department at the college for more info.

[Brubaker]

Thanks Dan, I appreciate that.

B

[daveymc29]

So maybe, and it seems obviously true to me, instead of worrying so much about leaving a better word for our children, we should concentrate on leaving better children for the world.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by dan

Bruce, I'm chiming in a little late here, but McPherson College offers "summer institute" classes that are like mini versions of their Auto Restoration courses. I know Kansas is a long drive from CA, but you might look into it. When I was getting my BS from Mac College, I talked to some of the summer institute participants and they were all pleased with the classes and enthusiastic. I believe they offer sheet metal and upholstery classes each summer--I don't recall all the details because as an undergrad I wasn't paying much attention, but you can probably contact the AR department at the college for more info.

Thanks for the tip Dan. A lot of these classes are full already! McPherson could add some classes I'd think. They have a pretty decent package put together to take these classes. Some of these classes cover things that are dieing trades, like; upholstrey, and babbit

[ronn]

I did look up McPherson and the classes look interesting and the price reasonable. My only question is how much you can learn in 5 days?


Seems a 1 month course would make more sense.

[Oldgearz]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I'm trying to stay out of this discussion, but I will say that I think a lot of the people who used to go into these industries, and had the brains to succeed in them, now go into other lines of work where they get paid more and the work environment is nicer.

I work in IT and we have plenty of young people on staff who are creative problem solvers, easily trainable, high ROI, self-taught or certified through vocational schools. Many of them have technical hobbies like electronics and programming.

I think in a pre-computer age many of them would have gravitated toward mechanical trades, industrial design, engineering, etc. But they make a higher salary here than they would in most restoration shops, and their skills are transferable if they have to move due to family commitments.

I agree. Lots of bright, energetic young folks out there. Exactly what's wrong with them seeking higher paying, good benefits jobs?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Oldgearz

I agree. Lots of bright, energetic young folks out there. Exactly what's wrong with them seeking higher paying, good benefits jobs?

Well, there definitely is not anything wrong with them seeking the things you suggest ...however, how many students out of every graduating class would we guess has the aptitude to learn a hi-tech or IT type of job?

Furthermore, the competency issue is still there when there is a need for a tradesman to do a task. Who fixes the plumbing leaks, or maybe a household wiring issue? What about finding competent labor to repair our vehicles? I'm not sure a world full of IT guys would solve our labor talent issues.

[ronn]

I completely agree with Brent- maybe 1 in 10 are capable of IT or hi tech jobs


same might be said about becoming doctors...............


my wife works at a hospital in NY and most doctors are now foreigners- most Americans find it to be too much work or cant succeed in stem courses.


so the work force in general has become somewhat dumbied down. sad to say

[Jeff/Illinois]

ronn is right.

From my travels overseas and interacting with folks especially in Germany, America HAS been 'dumbed -down' We are some of the stupidest people on the planet. Gullible and easy to sell, few people question anything anymore. They just go along.

I won't go into the 'why's' I'd get banned from here.

I'll finish by saying looks like if I want a new top for our Roadster, and done right, I may have to take it overseas (Tongue-in-cheek)

[Brubaker]

@Jeff/Illinois: Removing tongue-from-cheek, I wonder where someone from Germany/Europe would go for vintage auto interior materials? Assuming it would be the U.S. market, but could be a wrong assumption. It's a worldwide marketplace after all.

[ronn]

@Jeff/Illinois: Removing tongue-from-cheek, I wonder where someone from Germany/Europe would go for vintage auto interior materials? Assuming it would be the U.S. market, but could be a wrong assumption. It's a worldwide marketplace after all.



Considering Germany for example, they had Mercedes Benz at the turn of the century up, so they too would have had various interiors, maybe not so different from our own.
Of course we've all had leather, but I wouldnt be surprised if they also offered mohair and the like.


I had an uncle 35 yrs ago who lived in the Munich region. He sold hundreds of textiles in his Munich based shop. The best cottons came from Belguim at the time, as I recall.
So yes, Europe was quite apt. Maybe not exactly as we have, but Im sure they produce quite fine product in Europe.
A big factor for America is the complete loss of manufacturing.........

[rotorwrench]

The materials are a big factor in the auto trim world. Some contract to textile mills and others may have the equipment to mill their own but I don't know how many still do. A lot of the best wools were milled in Europe in the past, but there has been less call for materials since the manufacturing of these products has shifted to the pacific rim countries.

There is still some mills here in Texas but I don't know much about their finished product. Angora goats and sheep are still raised here but not as many as in past decades. Cotton is still grown here too. Most mills are still family run operations.

[alexiskai]

I saw an interesting thread on Twitter that was basically this phenomenon, but in the custom clothing world. First tweet below:
https://twitter.com/dieworkwear/stat...37041865454003

In the last ten years, I've seen:

1. A small cottage industry of made-to-measure Shetland sweater knitters disappear.

2. Two bridle leather goods makers close down. No replacements.

3. A major West End bespoke shoemaking firm shutter.

4. Two major American suit factories narrowly saved from the brink of bankruptcy (almost completely wiping out suit production in the US).

5. A major American shirtmaking factory also narrowly saved from permanent closure.

6. Vanners, one of the oldest silk mills in England, having started in 1740, was repossessed by administrators for the second time in two years. Management told me it's largely because of the decline in high-end neckwear sales around the world.

7. One of Britain's best leather goods manufacturers, RBJ Simpson—otherwise known as Simpson London—closed.

8. Caerlee Mills, which made some of the best Scottish cashmere knitwear in the world, many under the name Ballantyne, turn off its machines after 225 years of operation. The video below shows the factory being demolished.

9. Several bespoke tailors and bagmakers pass away or retire. In many cases, they did not have apprentices, so there was no one who was able to take their place. Their businesses just closed.

10. One of the best American tailors (a cutter, technically) called me in 2021 after he lost one of his coatmakers to COVID. He wanted to know if I had any recommendations to coatmakers in the US or around the world, as he doesn't know anyone left in the US who can sew a bespoke suit jacket or sport coat together anymore. The only people I could recommend to him were in Southern Italy.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by ronn

....................
A big factor for America is the complete loss of manufacturing.........

True.

Oh so very true