Fan blades are BREAKING

[forte]

Less than fifty miles between the two radiator fan blades breaking off two seperate fans. Before I replace a thrid time common sense tells me there is something causing this. My luck is not all bad. Motor = 1940 V8 85. all orig. Info that may help = Both times it happened in second gear. Since ownership of the car last Sept. it has a hard rumble accerlating from 0 to 45. Replacing the exhaust system including manifolds it does not hurt between my ears anymore, but it is still there. Purrs 50 to 60mph. And the rumble is gone after 45. Might hear a bit going up a hill but nothing like it use to be. Can this be connected to my baldes breaking?

[petehoovie]

Can you provide pictures of the broken fans?

[koates]

Hi there, just for a quick try remove the fan belt and drive it (briefly) and see if the noise is gone. This will narrow down your search. Regards, Kevin.

[forte]

So how do I get a url from my picture folder to be able to post one. Even my 14 yr old son is shaking his head on that one. Can't cut and paste, cant select drag and drop.

[Lawson Cox]

Chuck the next fan up in a lathe and check it for balance after closely inspecting it for cracks. Are you talking about genuine Ford parts or one of these modern plastic replacements?

[Tinker]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Click on the picture icon above on the message bar. Looks like a mountain with a postage stamp. Then paste your url in the popup box.

Or If you have pictures on your computer that you want to upload, you can click "go advanced". Scroll down and you will see "manage attachments" click that and upload pictures straight to the site.

Heres a link to how to post pictures with a better explanation then what I quickly did...

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ading+pictures
or
https://www.fordbarn.com/are-ya-lost/posting-images/




.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by forte

Less than fifty miles between the two radiator fan blades breaking off two seperate fans. Before I replace a thrid time common sense tells me there is something causing this. My luck is not all bad. Motor = 1940 V8 85. all orig. Info that may help = Both times it happened in second gear. Since ownership of the car last Sept. it has a hard rumble accerlating from 0 to 45. Replacing the exhaust system including manifolds it does not hurt between my ears anymore, but it is still there. Purrs 50 to 60mph. And the rumble is gone after 45. Might hear a bit going up a hill but nothing like it use to be. Can this be connected to my baldes breaking?

I wonder if someone has been turning the engine over by the fan blades and then straightening them when they were bent? As unusual as it is for a fan blade to break if you broke two there must be something else going on. How about pictures?

Charlie Stephens

[forte]

Both blades are metal. both were exactly like original. Now truth be told the first breake I blamed on myself as I did try to move the motor by hand and I DID feel like i bent a blade. But this second one I did no such thing. So I checked the pully there is no budging it one bit. It spins true while motor runs. Still working on the photo advice.
On the note of driving the car w/ out the fan on. Any damage to motor doing so. I need to get it up to 25 mph . Breifly means five minutes or less???

[petehoovie]

Is the "rumble" you refer to a vibration as well???.....

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by forte

So how do I get a url from my picture folder to be able to post one. Even my 14 yr old son is shaking his head on that one. Can't cut and paste, cant select drag and drop.

Go here real easy free and you don't have to join!!!
http://tinypic.com/

R

[forte]

Yes. Just checked my engine mounts and by tightening one up front I now snapped the water pump mount.

[Binx]

Yes, I'm just spitballing here but this reminds me of of a guy who had a totally different modern modified engine that kept loosening the bolt and shearing the key of his front pulley over and over again. Finally, he pulled the trans and found the flywheel bolts were loose with elongated holes. The vibration was transmitting through the crank and wiping out the front pulley as the only symptom.

Lonnie

[forte]

And I will do that kind of work too see, and if its not then I want to understand that nothing else can be checked beforehand and then I pull the engine and check the crankshaft. But it makes sense that it could be something like that. I will find a machine shop that can test # 3 fan for balance.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by forte

Yes. Just checked my engine mounts and by tightening one up front I now snapped the water pump mount.

I don't understand how you could do this. Aren't your motor mounts equipped with rubber pads?....

[51 MERC-CT]

Without having the fracture point analyzed, searching for and blaming some mysterious rumble or vibration for the failure is probably a moot point.
The as manufactured sheared and formed parts with jagged edges such as this are a perfect breeding ground for cracks to start.
I suspect that without stripping to bare metal and properly inspecting the area, the failure point existed before installation.
Having seen this failure if I had such a fan I would immediately strip the area and radius/polish the jagged edges.

[jimTN]

40 fans mount direct to the crank pulley and are not run by a belt. It is possible that the mounting flange on your pulley might be bent. Also check for interference from the fan hitting something. I doubt that turning the motor over with the fan blade caused this. It does appear from your comments that something between the pressure plate and fan tips is loose or out of balance and I would believe that a flywheel related problem could cause a harmonic balance thing that could cause a fan problem.

[Fordestes]

I had a cat engine that was shaking the fan mounts loose and also breaking some of the mount bolts, It had the wrong pressure plate in it , the thing causing the problem was causing Harmonics at a very high frequency, the average person couldn't detect the vibe, myself included, after a couple of failures, I had my tech. pull everything off the rear of the crankshaft and inspected all the parts, There was evidence of the bell adapter alignment pins being elongated due to the vibe. causing misalignment contributing to the problem, I had to replace all the parts and realign the flywheel, problem solved.

[forte]

Correct pully is mounted as part of the hand crank shaft.
I am trying to remove the pully. Using a 1 1/8" 6 point socket, transmission in reverse, parking brake on, this is not coming off. I am actually moving the car w/ every turn of the ratchet. The socket is not hitting the handcrank teeth. How do it stop the motor from rotating to enable the pully to be removed for inspection? I will start to soak the area w/ Gibbs in the meantime. The book states an impact wrench is used. But only a right angle one will fit behind the radiator. Please advise if this is the only way before I start asking to borrow one.
ASLO not sure if this helps: ever since I drained the super thick 4oz. of transmission fluid and replaced w/ 80W90 gear oil to correct level and drained and redid after 10 miles AND adjusted the clutch pedal to have the speced 1.5 to 1.75" of free travel it has been tough to shift from 1st to 2nd. Meaning I can feel it thru the column shifter. Not the teeth but its like it rubs. 2nd to 3rd is great. I'm thinking to set clutch pedal back to very little free play.

[Andy]

Not convenient with a running engine, but I put vice grips on the ring gear thru the starter hole. It really secures the engine from turning.

[Ronnie]

Nylon rope in spark plug hole will help you out.

R

[deuce_roadster]

On the back of the mounting flange of the fan is a small raised circular ridge that indexes the fan to the hub. Since this has happened on 2 fans it is possible that the recess this fits into is not concentric with the hub. I had a NOS hub that had to be machined because the recess was off center. This could be the source of unbalance even if the fan was perfect. Probably the reason this hub was in the parts bin was that fans didn't easily mount up.

[forte]

How to remove pully from installed motor = remove lower radiator hoses from motor only, remove funny looking wish bone support member from fenders and center of axle, place large pipe wrench on pully flange lock in against left fender, 1.125" 6pt socket w/ breaker bar, Effort = loose pully. Thank you Dad.
I will take old pully and my next victim to machine shop for a balance test. Will update when I have answers. I like the rope idea. Thank you all.

[forte]

Duce - So I remember this blade not falling into the hub recess as you describe. However the bolts drew it tight and I needed to tap the fan to get it off the hub shaft. i just rebolted it on the bech and the same thing. The bolts brought the two together and needed a tap to seperate. So. Are you saying that even if this happens it could still be off center?

[scooder]

I don't have an answer for your fan issue, just a pointer on stopping the engine moving so you can undo the crank bolt. Don't use first or reverse gear. Use top gear. It works much better. With the radiator out, you can't beat a knocker gun.
Hope you find your issue.
Martin.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Just get the breaker or ratchet handle pointed in a direction that gives some room, probably downward, and give it a good smack in the offward direction with a big rubber mallet. Okie impact wrench!

I wonder if the vibration might be based on some violence within the crank like a cylinder firing way too early from crossfire or wrong wiring...this can result in one cylinder trying to run backwards while one does nothing.

[deuce_roadster]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Forte, if more then just a little pressure is needed to seat the fan or remove it, I would have the concentricity of the recess checked in a lathe by a machinist. Yes, it could be off a little. Things can get mis machined when manufactured.
The fact this happened 2 times makes me suspect the hub, not the fans, as the source of the problem.

[JWL]

Put the transmission in 3rd gear and set the brakes. Too much torque multiplication in low or reverse.

[forte]

Test drove the car w/out the fan on, just a different hub. And before I even get 100' I hear the rumble. So I will attemp to remove the trans and go after the pressure plate area. In doing so I will go over every darn thing I touch and inspect 100%. FYI, I felt a vibration in both the gas and clutch pedals while heavy racing of the motor while sitting still. And that rope trick did save a lot of hassel when installing the hub, I needed to align the key way. Thank you all again. I'm sure I will be asking for help as I get into it. Any one live near Hampstead MD and want to join the fun?

[53F100Jeffie]

I had a fan blade come off on my 48 F1, which had a 51 Merc motor in it at the time. Went right through the hood. Scared the crap out of the kids and I. I am very wary of standing next to a running motor now.
I hope you find out what cause this. Good Luck!

Jeff

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, Yikes, two broken fans and a rumble/vibration. I don't know anything about this model year. I sure hope somebody in the area can listen to this car to help point the diagnosis.

[JWL]

Yeah, I don't know exactly what is going on?? Post#22 and several others were NOT showing at the time I wrote my comment. Perhaps I needed to refresh?

Thanks,
JWL

[Terry,OH]

It is amazing how much the pressure plate can be out of balance. It's a bit late to balance the crank but the flywheel and the clutch PP assembly. If you don't find another cause of the vibration.

[36coupe]

With the transmission shifting issue, I have the same issue after changing the oil to 80/90wt and it was suggested to add a couple ounces of STP and that solved the grinding gears issue, especially when warmed up.

[cordbob]

Not an expert but does the vibration you spoke of only happen under load or will it happen just bringing the r.p.m.s up in neutral.I chased a vibration that only under just the right load was causing the engine to move and contact the chassis. Maybe try loading up the drive train by power braking or with parking brake on ,have someone watch to see if that could be making your fan contact something.

[forte]

The fan is not contacting anything. It rumbles sitting still and revving it and it rumbles getting up to 45mph. After that it purrs like a kitty. But going up hills it rumbles no matter what speed. Im taking it to a local car shhow this Sun. hope to get some people who know more than me to take some crakes at its health issue.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by 53F100Jeffie

I had a fan blade come off on my 48 F1, which had a 51 Merc motor in it at the time. Went right through the hood. Scared the crap out of the kids and I. I am very wary of standing next to a running motor now.
I hope you find out what cause this. Good Luck!

Jeff

Jeff, I had the same thing happen on a 50 merc engine. Fan blades work hardened and cracked. Then one day when I was leaning over the engine giving it a little gas, fan blades went through the hood and radiator. Since then I learned: Never stand in the line of fire.

[Andy]

Crank may be broken. I had a VW that broke the crank at the center main. Ran fine but had funny vibration and noises. More pronounced as the load increased.

[53F100Jeffie]

Pretty Scary, lesson learned!!!

[deuce_roadster]

I would be more then happy to help but you live 3000 miles from me. Good luck and let us know what was the cause.
I once had a situation where the car ran fine at idle but shook like it was unbalanced when revved up. After inspecting the plugs, I could see one hadn't been firing even though there was spark there when shorted with a screwdriver. After further inspection, I had somehow adjusted the intake on that cyl way wrong and it wasn't opening enough to let enough fuel in. It wasn't that noisy either. Adjusted it correctly and it purrs like a kitten. I doubt that is your problem but it can always be something really weird.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Forte, I am a member of the EFV-8 C/A, RG36 here in MD, and I read your email to Norm that he forwarded to all of our club members. I am guessing that you either bought or borrowed a water pump if you are planning to drive your car from Hampstead to the Howard County Farm Museum this coming Sunday?? I would have liked meeting you and listening to that rumble noise, but unfortunately I cannot make it to that show due to family obligations that same day.
I may be a pessimist, but I believe you have something seriously wrong internal to your engine or possibly in the area of the flywheel that's causing components to break or otherwise fail. I really question driving your car, or even running the engine until you or a mechanic determines exactly what is wrong. Maybe you are planning to trailer to the show, but even then, if you have installed another fan, please do not allow anyone to be near the engine while it is running and the hood is open.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Lawson Cox

Chuck the next fan up in a lathe and check it for balance after closely inspecting it for cracks. Are you talking about genuine Ford parts or one of these modern plastic replacements?

Lawson that will take a pretty big lathe. G.M.

[JWL]

I agree with JM35 and would be reluctant to drive that fan breaking car until all reasonable possibilities for the vibration/rumble have been examined.

[Marv]

Could go with a electric fan until you find the trouble. Someone could get hurt with that fan breaker.

[Andy]

I sure would not run the engine without knowing what is wrong. It is not a minor problem.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, I'll be at the gig Sunday so I'll be able to talk with forte. I'm not a great diagnostician, but I'll listen to what he says and might possibly get a look or listen.

Hoping we know more soon.

[forte]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I just put a dial indicator from a fixed point to the rim of the hub. Using a socket and ratchet I rotated the crank shaft and noticed that I had 1/1000" movement just applying pressure to rotate. Meaning I was moving the hub/shaft downward before I started to rotate. I had a variable of 5/1000" difference w/ a complete revolution in terms of center of shaft to outer rim edge of pully hub where the hand crank bolt is. So would I be guessing right that it should not be doing either of those? Please note this motor is not easy to rotate. It takes much effort to move and thats w/ pushing downward on the ratchet.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by forte

. It takes much effort to move and thats w/ pushing downward on the ratchet.

Pull the spark plugs to make it easier to rotate. And you may also be able to rotate using the starter.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by forte

I just put a dial indicator from a fixed point to the rim of the hub. Using a socket and ratchet I rotated the crank shaft and noticed that I had 1/1000" movement just applying pressure to rotate. Meaning I was moving the hub/shaft downward before I started to rotate. I had a variable of 5/1000" difference w/ a complete revolution in terms of center of shaft to outer rim edge of pully hub where the hand crank bolt is. So would I be guessing right that it should not be doing either of those? Please note this motor is not easy to rotate. It takes much effort to move and thats w/ pushing downward on the ratchet.

Is the hub clean? In other words... no paint, crud, etc.
I would do as has been recently advised and turn the engine with the starter. See how the run out compares to the readings you got with pressure applied with the ratchet.

THEN I would remove the pulley and check the runout of the crankshaft stub..


I applaud your efforts thus far. It's refreshing to find a person that is willing to spend the time / effort to repair something properly.
I have to say, if the hub is clean and you are seeing .005" of runout, I'd start worrying if it were mine. If you get that same .005" on the crank "stub", there's a serious issue internally...crank bent? Bearings SHOT?

Good luck...

[forte]

Well, if I had 6grand around I might have sent the car to a shop. Then again probably not. I'd put it towards my Dads car like yours. So yes, I will do what ever I can. I need this car to be reliable for my family's sake. I'll do what you asked. It makes sense to me. Hub had paint but I can start the motor for one minute and take some sand paper to it and clean it right up.

[forte]

OK so I removed the pully/ flange/ hub. What is its proper name? the hub was clean of paint and it was smooth. I afixed a dial on the crankshaft. Spun it by hand and by starter button. Same results.
1) I have a solid 1/1000" variance. Is this ok?
2) I have a 1.5+/1000" free play in that shaft moving it by hand up and down side to side. Is this ok?
3) I also noticed that when using the starter the motor torqued it up to 5/1000" free play if you will. This does not look good to me. Right?

FYI, as I installed the pully it was tight starting 1" on the shaft, then it was free going on the shft to the motor. As I removed the pully it was tight coming off the first .5" then free then tight again the last 1".

tight = use of hammer and rod for install thru the crank hole and a puller to remove.
4) Is any of this not ok?

[forte]

The motor has been rebuilt probably back in '95 when the past owner had the paint done. Cylinder sleeves were used as evidence. Turns out there were only 3 crank shaft bolts still intact. All others were snapped off down inside where the threads are. There is also a crack in the block. Thank you to everyone who has pitched in their opinions. Now we know why my two fans broke.

[40cpe]

Thank you for returning with the problems found. Am I correct in understanding that three main cap bolts were broken? Was the crack in the area of the mains? Can anyone venture a theory on what broke the bolts?

[JM 35 Sedan]

It's sad to hear the bad news, but I think many of us who were following this thread knew something was seriously wrong with the internals of your engine. Thanks for coming back to let us know what you found. Where is the block cracked, and is this a fatal crack? What are your plans now to move forward with this and get your car back on the road? Is there anything us folks local to you can do to help you out on this? Maybe think about coming to the next RG36 membership meeting in Sunshine, MD, usually held on third Tuesday of most every month, and get to know our members who live near you. Someone is bound to have some good advice and maybe willing to lend you a hand.

[forte]

1)40cpe, What color is that Deluxe? Folkstone Gray?
2) Bolts broke. One bearing laying in oil pan. My theory = I've seen some p__s poor craftsmanship on this car. Scratches on every piece of glass from a DA. Hand cut bolts being used, What was done and by whom back in '95 was either steeling the previous owners money, or simply could not perform good quality work. I feel the rebuilt motor reflects what was done to the rest of the car. I'm my own boss running a custom cabinetry shop. I do things right the best way I can. I will get this car back together and might even get it to the Eastern National Meet on time. Gunther's has my Dad's Flathead and was issued a passing grade.
3) Crack = between a bolt hole and a water hole on block. I believe the broken bolts is why Gunther's did not want to rebuild the motor.
4) JM 35 = I have been attending the RG#36 meeting since I joined in October.
6-8 weeks before I have both motors back for photos. So now its a good time to clean the motor compartment.

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by forte

1)40cpe, What color is that Deluxe? Folkstone Gray?

3) Crack = between a bolt hole and a water hole on block. I believe the broken bolts is why Gunther's did not want to rebuild the motor.

Yes, Folkstone Gray

Those cracks are typically harmless.

I've been following flathead forums for 12+ years and have never heard of main cap bolts breaking in a running engine. I would like to know opinions of the cause. Wrong bolts? Too much torque? Crank badly out of balance?

[Cecil/WV]

Glad you found the problem, Ken, but sorry to hear the damage. I knew it was in the bottom when I heard it run at the show at the farm museum. See you on the 21st.

[JM 35 Sedan]

QUOTE=forte;1302187]
2) I will get this car back together and might even get it to the Eastern National Meet on time. Gunther's has my Dad's Flathead and was issued a passing grade.

I am hoping you can get the car done and bring it to the ENM in August

4) JM 35 = I have been attending the RG#36 meeting since I joined in October.

Did not know you were a member and cannot recall meeting you, but then I haven't attended many meetings myself since last October

6-8 weeks before I have both motors back for photos. So now its a good time to clean the motor compartment.

Hoping this build goes much better than the last[/QUOTE]

[Cecil/WV]

John, you been playing hooky too much, lately! You going to Tulsa??

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Cecil/WV

John, you been playing hooky too much, lately! You going to Tulsa??

Yep Cecil, I am missing a few meetings along the way, but I'm thinking about you folks constantly, so hoping that counts some . I am all signed up for Tulsa and Gettysburg, but don't think I'll make the '16 WNM.
Now all I need to do is finish getting the '35 fordor rear rebuilt with 3.54 gears, maybe put a set of later '39 to '48 gears in the transmission, and get it all back together before the d day, departure date.

[Bluebell]

40CPE, I have no previous knowledge. Pulling the bolts down too tight may have been the cause? What about wrong gudgeon pins (wrist pins) with wrong pistons. I understand that puts the engine out of balance. Just another possibility.

[Cecil/WV]

John, What day you plan to leave for Tulsa?? You better get hustling!!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Cecil/WV

John, What day you plan to leave for Tulsa?? You better get hustling!!

My calendar says Thursday, but more likely Friday morning. Depends on whether I decide to drive or trailer out. I believe my reservations begin Sunday night. Hoping for some better weather than I have seen happening there lately on the news.
What is your ETD & ETA?

[Cecil/WV]

Leaving on Sunday morning for a 2 day trip. towing my trailer with my '40 pickup on board. Starting back on Friday, another 2 day trip.