slipping out of 2nd gear

[FrankWest]

1933 model B, stays in 2nd as long as I keep foot on gas once gas pedal released slips out of 2nd into neutral.

[fordwife]

Possibly weak or broken detent springs in the shift tower.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

1933 model B, stays in 2nd as long as I keep foot on gas once gas pedal released slips out of 2nd into neutral.

Usually this is an internal issue. Often too much clearance (washers worn).

Perhaps Van Pelt can weigh in?


Some guys attempt the "band aid" fix by installing heavier springs in the detent (shift tower) with mixed results.
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but my betting money rides on an internal (transmission) issue.

[rotorwrench]

Worn thrust surfaces on the countershaft cluster gear. Worn bushing on the intermediate gear. Worn synchronizer parts. There are these and other possible shaft & component thrust wear situations that cause it to slip out of the intermediate gear.

When a person lets off the accelerator, the thrust load reverses. If there is enough play in there it will be enough to cause both the mainshaft intermediate gear and the cluster gear to shift a good bit to the opposite thrust direction. This is why the slip out of gear. Reduce the play to minimum and it will function normally. This can require replacement of parts that may look to be in good condition so a person has to know what they are looking for clearance wise.

[Ol' Ron]

This can also be caused by case stretch. assemble the main shaft. and measure between the bearing snap rings. Then measure the length of the case. I forget the clearance required but i know it was tight. If the input shaft turned easy it was too loose. Today we use shims to accomplish the same thing. I stopped working on these trans over 50 years ago, just couldn't take the power. However, the later ones are a very good design. We shortened the case by milling of the material from the rear of the case.

[grumppyoldman]

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Ol' Ron you are just a wealth of knowledge, sounds like you've been around as long as I have. Al

[FrankWest]

I APPRECIATE ALL YOUR COMMENTS. This is a recent occurrence. It was not doing this when I got the car running several years ago. So maybe something internal snapped?

[Bruce_MO]

Frank,


I hope you resolved your DL question.


My '32 started doing that a number of years ago and I did some research on it and it's pretty much as folks said... wear of components. I'd add that misalignment was possible... which is another way of saying "wear". One area I was told about was wear of the pilot bearing causing the main shaft to get slightly out of alignment. My problem only happens going down a long hill toward my house in 2nd. So now I drive down in 3rd! The first couple times were scary because the hill is steep. When I rebuilt the transmission, the gears "looked good", so I only replaced bearings and spacers. I doubt that I'd do it differently today. I frankly have learned to drive in ways that minimize the symptoms I have with my Fords.

[Talkwrench]

I just rebuilt mine , clearances all checked, new bearings, shafts syncros etc .. went great for the first run but about 50 miles on , damn its doing it again.. Its been getting a hard time as Im breaking the engine in and Im working it hard. Just didnt last for me ..Damn! Doesn't leak though ...lol
Shift fork ?

[Step-down]

Theres a band-ad fix that no on like but works. There a guy on e - bay that sell a spring and ball caps for the placement in the shift tower ..
I've used them . Pull the shift tower ,pull one shaft and place the spring/ ball caps in between the shafts . It stiffens thing up until it's time to pull the transmission and fix proper ....

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Bruce_MO

Frank,


I hope you resolved your DL question.


My '32 started doing that a number of years ago and I did some research on it and it's pretty much as folks said... wear of components. I'd add that misalignment was possible... which is another way of saying "wear". One area I was told about was wear of the pilot bearing causing the main shaft to get slightly out of alignment. My problem only happens going down a long hill toward my house in 2nd. So now I drive down in 3rd! The first couple times were scary because the hill is steep. When I rebuilt the transmission, the gears "looked good", so I only replaced bearings and spacers. I doubt that I'd do it differently today. I frankly have learned to drive in ways that minimize the symptoms I have with my Fords.

I too, have been able to drive around the problem. I use 3rd gear most of the time, without any problems.

[FL&WVMIKE]

The '34 will do this occasionally, under the right/wrong circumstances. I remember asking dad about this, and he said it was common... and that some people would install a little 'J' hook near the dash to clip the shifter handle into, in order to hold it into place. I guess it was a semi-effective band-aid. lol

[Jack E/NJ]

VanPelt sez-- https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-10828925

Wow, I always thought dash hooks were invented to fix this. 8^) Jack E/NJ

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

VanPelt sez-- https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-10828925

Wow, I always thought dash hooks were invented to fix this. 8^) Jack E/NJ

Correct me if I'm wrong... as I have a far greater background in 60's-70's Fords, than 30's.

The passage linked above keeps mentioning synchronizers. The topic of that thread involved late 40's/early 50's transmissions.

It's my understanding that the transmissions in the '34 and '35 are NOT synchronized, as they need double clutched when shifting. Dad always said they were not a synchronized transmission, and taught me to double clutch when shifting.

Are the late 40's/early 50's transmissions synchronized? Or, are the simply incorrectly referring to the sliders and engagement teeth as synchros? As, synchronizers are the brass/bronze blocking rings that provide the friction for the gears to match speeds as the slider engages the teeth on the next gear.

Am I missing something here?

I've rebuilt several Ford Toploaders, and some other, 60's-80's era transmissions... so i have a pretty good background of transmission basics.

Thanks!

[FL&WVMIKE]

Looking at the below link, it looks like the pre-1940 transmissions have very primitive synchronizers. They are not the traditional blocking rings found on the later stuff. Starting out in 1938, the commercial stuff looks traditionally synchronized, and sometime in 1940, the cars started using the updated synchros... with the 1946-54 units looking almost exactly like what is found in a more 'modern' Ford Toploader built from around 1964-73.

All I know, is dad's '29 Model A, '34 Phaeton and '35 Cabriolet never felt synchronized, and worked a lot better if you double clutched them.

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...d-synchros.htm

[1931 flamingo]

Frank: Keep your hand on the shifter..................
Paul in CT

[JSeery]

Only problem with that (hand on shifter) or a dash hook, is that it forces the shifting fork against the collar and it slowly wares the shifting fork surface away. Some of the issues with these transmission is because of someone resting there hand on the shifter while driving. It is a good short term solution, but if it is drive that way for an extended distance/time not sure it is so good of an idea.

[Karl]

Mine did the same
There is a old fix . Take the top off Pull the second selector rod Make a matching groove opposite the existing grove in the end of the rod Reinstall the rod and then place a shortened dedent piece and spring under the dedent screw cover Effectively gives you a dedent mechanism on both sides of the rod and stopped mine dropping out of gear -Karl

[rotorwrench]

Some folks convert the early synchro to the late 1939 or 91A type set up on the early cog boxes but the old shift tower never had a shift fork made to work with the 91A synchro sleeve. The quick fix is to install the late type guts and the late type double detent shift tower. The floor has to be modified a bit for that since the tower is in a little bit different position.


The early synchro worked but not as well as the late type with the brass blocker rings to help slow things to the correct rpm for a trouble free shift. On the old types a person has to do the rpm matching by ear to get a decent shift. Double clutching will do the same thing but they can be shifted from intermediate to high & back without grinding if a person gets used to what makes it function the best.


Engine braking can't be totally eliminated since it is necessary may times but it can be minimized by utilizing the vehicle brakes as much as is practicable. The engine braking wears on the opposite thrust surfaces inside the gearbox so over time the disconnect of the syncro starts to show up as the clearances increase with wear.

[FrankWest]

I never checked these parts on my transmission tower. Maybe the spring is broken?
I guess I will have to remove the transmission floor plate to get at this.

[Step-down]

Frank West I’ve used this part and it works but it’s a bandade

[Cool 33]

I've always heard this is a deluxe transmission with the auto-neutral feature. Just saying...

[35fordtn]

Please understand that the transmission he has is a early type.. All these "band-aid" fixes are relative to the later 39-up transmission when refering to the plungers and spring between the shift rails. The Early 32-37 transmissions had ONLY the plungers and spring between the rail. So..... the part he shows in post #20 is NOT a band aid fix but rather a stock replacement part for the 32-37 transmission. I am betting money this is not his issue..

[FrankWest]

if my original spring has fractured this replacement may be just what I need. Like I said,
When I first got my car running it was not jumping out of and gears, so maybe with the operation of the gear changer work hardened 80 years old springs fractured? I is worth a shot, as long as I can get at the original part. I assume removing the transmission floor cover will allow me access.

[35fordtn]

While it is a possible cause, I’ve never seen one break. You’ll need to remove the whole shifter assembly and remove the 2-3 shift fork and rail to replace. You’ll also need a 3/8” freeze plug to replace the one you’ll remove to replace the detent..

[Karl]

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Frank this is the fix I used -Karl

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Karl

Frank this is the fix I used -Karl

WOW! what great info...Does this mean that the basic design was flawed?

[rotorwrench]

The key word is basic. The 32 thru 35 transmissions were a lot better than the Model A with no synchro at all. The single detent vertical tower shift top came along in 1936 with other transmission improvements. The double detent type tower came along in 1938 or so. The side shifters from 40 thru 48 can also wear to the point they will pop out of gear. The flaw in all equipment is that they all wear out eventually. Some just wear out quicker than others.

[FrankWest]

Thanks.....You are right..everything wears, especially 85 year old cars...These engines and transmission are very well made considering they we built as a cheap form of transportation for the masses.

[FrankWest]

Problem solved.....No more slipping out of gear....
What happened?
I drained transmission fluid and replace with Marvel Mystery Oil....
Drove only a couple of miles,, Drained the Marvel Mystery Oil.
Replaced new transmission/gear oil.
No more popping out of gear.
Did the MMO clean the trans so that it would operate properly..Maybe magic.??

[cas3]

Brace yourself Frank, you might get some feedback on this one !

[DavidG]

Like Douglas MacArthur, it shall return.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Like Douglas MacArthur, it shall return.

That would be my best guess as well . . .

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

That would be my best guess as well . . .

Thanks

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by cas3

Brace yourself Frank, you might get some feedback on this one !

Of course.
When I first bought my car, people on this forum told me not to run it but take the engine all apart first to inspect it.
It will not post anymore on here.
I just tried to tell of a simple possible fix.''
Don\t worry I will not post anymore on here

[cas3]

Well geez Frank, can't a guy put some humor in here without rocking the boat ? I certainly meant no insult, only some humor. Please don't run off, I always enjoy your adventures with your 33

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Like Douglas MacArthur, it shall return.

how do you know?

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

That would be my best guess as well . . .

How do you know?

[DavidG]

Because it is a common, wear-related occurrence and eventually happens to just about all of them. Search this forum and you will find that you are not the first to experience 2nd gear pop-out on deceleration.

[Bored&Stroked]

The reason I know is that I've spent countless hours rebuilding these transmissions - even going so far as to make my own cluster shafts, adding special "hard stops" on the shift rails, using a precision surface grinder to tune clearances, etc..

I've had multiple transmissions with the same problem you're experiencing -- so I fix them and if they are ran for a few years and abused (I'm hard on them), then they'll be back in this situation at a later date.

The "fix" is complicated in that it involves trying to fix all the compounded "slop" in the fitment of the various pieces -- shims, bearings, shafts, etc.. I try to achieve the tightest clearances possible (on the low end of every spec) - and that usually works . . . at least for awhile. If we all had a supply of NOS parts, it would be a lot easier . . . but most of those supplies have dried up over the years.

So, not trying to deliver bad news to you - just trying to be honest (based on the last 45 years of screwing with these transmissions).

Best of luck - please stay around!
B&S

[chain drive]

when we were racing always had a hook on the dash back then the trannys were dime a dozen

[tubman]

I sure hope Frank's right; it'll save a lot of time and money.