59 V8 rebuild, no oil pressure

[petehoovie]

What 'tubman' said....

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

Not so. The pressure relief is still active in the pump, just like normal.

Whether it is internally regulated or reverse flow regulated depends on where the plug is inside the pump. I've never seen a diagram of the pump modification for the full flow system. All I see is the exit port from the bottom of the gear chamber. If the original outlet inside the pump is plugged above the relief valve, then it would regulate. It has to be plugged somewhere in there or it will still be oiling the rear main bearing before it gets to the filter. That would make it an overly complicated 95% filter system and not a full flow.

I wonder if anyone has a description on how the full flow pump is modified. That would answer this question.

[Bored&Stroked]

To each his own as far as what you prefer. The system shown is a 100% full-flow system and the pump has been modified to output 100% of the oil out the bottom of the pump, through the oil-pan and then into the full-flow filter.

I have this same system and it will take awhile for the oil to get to the filter, fill it and achieve oil pressure. So, like others said - pull the plugs, pull the filter and crank it over until you see oil coming into the filter mount. Put the filter back on - crank it over some more (and it will take awhile to fill the filter) - then you'll finally achieve oil pressure. Yes - it takes awhile the first time for sure. I have an oil pressure gauge right on the bottom of my 'custom Fram looking' filter - so I can be on the side of the car and see the pressure.

Now while we're at it, the '95%' claim is a bit much anyway -- I look at it more like 66% - as the rear main gets unfiltered oil and who knows exactly how much of the oil in that location then pressurizes the rod journal next to it, or goes back up through the cam bearing and into the oil pressure tube. (2 outta 3 mains = 66% to me)

The only reason I run a full-flow filter is to keep crap out of my main bearings (yes, the rear for sure). Having 100% filtered oil makes me happy - but setting up the system is a big pain in the rear. (at least in my case - as I wanted it to look as close to Fram stock as possible. I still need to make hard lines for it, just haven't gotten to that little project!)

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[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I wonder if anyone has a description on how the full flow pump is modified. That would answer this question.

As you can see in the picture, the pump is modified so that the stock output port from the gears is plugged (the one that goes through the pump body) - then there are two different methods that are used to modify the pump bottom:

1) Motor City: They make a thick steel plate that replaces the original plate - with the necessary holes and fittings tapped into it.

2) The One I Have: Uses the stock steel plate (with a hole in it), then a secondary aluminum plate is mounted on top of it -- with the necessary output ports and fittings in it. The reason I like this method is that the stock steel plate is hardened and I'm not sure the one from MCF is/was. I don't want the plate to wear.

[tubman]

Dale, I have only one question;. Where does the "crap" that you want to keep out of your rear main come from? I can't see any responsible builder leaving ANYTHING like that in the engine after a build, and I don't see it coming in from the environment. I'd rather see the finer stuff filtered out rather than worrying about big chunks. We don't do a lot of driving on dirt roads anymore.

[Jack E/NJ]

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tubman>>>Boy, I'm sure glad I left the stock bypass systems >>>

Boy, I'm sure glad I left the stock no-filter system on mine! 8^) Jack E/NJ

[tubman]

Jack, what are you trying to say here? Surely, everyone that I have heard believes that a bypass system is better than none.

[Jack E/NJ]

tubman>>>I think a bypass system is a lot better any of these "Full-Flow" or "95%" systems. They are overkill.>>>

I think changing my 5w-20 every 2000 miles or less is a lot better than the complications of adding filtration to an engine that wasn't originally designed to have much more oil filtration than a pickup screen. 8^) Jack E/NJ

[rotorwrench]

I finally found an old hot rod mag article that shows how they plug that long slot passage on the oil pump body. They just welded it up. I wonder if all of them are set up this way? A person would have to do some work every time they replace an old worn out pump. I think Ford and GM & maybe others just having a 95% (or what ever %) bypass was good enough. Having to purge the system at every oil change sounds like a PITA to me. I like to fill my filters with oil when I put them on. Never heard a rod knock yet and PSI comes right up.

I'm keeping the old OEM bypass system for my stockers. All the other stuff gets confusing and that's when bearings get oil starved and burned up. I don't get enough miles on my old antiques to even worry about the amount of miles on the oil. I just change it every 6-months whether it has 2000 miles or not.

[Ronnie]

This is a cut and past of the FAQ's

http://www.flatheadspeedandmachine.com/faq.html

They explain how the stock pump is modified to make it not lube the rear main like the oem design ford pump.All the oil is directed from the pump out to the fitting on the oil pan and up to the spin on filter adapter.From there out of the filter and into the block.Other than this the internal bypass is not disturbed.This is the line to be removed to confirm the pump has flow. Then trouble shoot from there.

this what they did 30 years ago
http://myplace.frontier.com/~wgmumaw...ilterBills.htm

R

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

tubman>>>I think a bypass system is a lot better any of these "Full-Flow" or "95%" systems. They are overkill.>>>

I think changing my 5w-20 every 2000 miles or less is a lot better than the complications of adding filtration to an engine that wasn't originally designed to have much more oil filtration than a pickup screen. 8^) Jack E/NJ

I am primarily an 8BA guy, and I don't think that one of them ever left the factory without a bypass system. Ford offered them earlier as well. Don't we all believe that the factory engineers knew what they were doing? I think a similar situation existed with just about all of the other manufacturers who came to the same conclusion at the same time.

[BillM]

this what they did 30 years ago
http://myplace.frontier.com/~wgmumaw...ilterBills.htm

How time flies !

Another thing to think about is that today's detergent oil is designed to keep the trash in suspension and the full flow (or bypass) filter can then remove it. The trash in the non-detergent oil would settle out and drop to the bottom of the pan as sludge. I remember being surprised at how clean the first engine was that I took apart that had been using detergent oil.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

As you can see in the picture, the pump is modified so that the stock output port from the gears is plugged (the one that goes through the pump body) - then there are two different methods that are used to modify the pump bottom:

1) Motor City: They make a thick steel plate that replaces the original plate - with the necessary holes and fittings tapped into it.

2) The One I Have: Uses the stock steel plate (with a hole in it), then a secondary aluminum plate is mounted on top of it -- with the necessary output ports and fittings in it. The reason I like this method is that the stock steel plate is hardened and I'm not sure the one from MCF is/was. I don't want the plate to wear.

I have had my MCF full flow system installed for over 25 years and is still going strong. I do like your setup though. I too have a problem with the naming of the 95% oil system.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I finally found an old hot rod mag article that shows how they plug that long slot passage on the oil pump body. They just welded it up. I wonder if all of them are set up this way? A person would have to do some work every time they replace an old worn out pump. I think Ford and GM & maybe others just having a 95% (or what ever %) bypass was good enough. Having to purge the system at every oil change sounds like a PITA to me. I like to fill my filters with oil when I put them on. Never heard a rod knock yet and PSI comes right up.

I'm keeping the old OEM bypass system for my stockers. All the other stuff gets confusing and that's when bearings get oil starved and burned up. I don't get enough miles on my old antiques to even worry about the amount of miles on the oil. I just change it every 6-months whether it has 2000 miles or not.

I don't think you can wear out these pumps. Once the system is up and operational, changing filters does not require purging anything. It is just the original start up that takes a little time.

[Tinker]

from a guy with no pressure too a debate on filters and pumps. Alright in my book.

No motor with a 3ft hole to the motor is going to show pressure without some running. Gauge too block is the ticket.

Prime that motor

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by tubman

Dale, I have only one question;. Where does the "crap" that you want to keep out of your rear main come from? I can't see any responsible builder leaving ANYTHING like that in the engine after a build, and I don't see it coming in from the environment. I'd rather see the finer stuff filtered out rather than worrying about big chunks. We don't do a lot of driving on dirt roads anymore.

Couple things: First of all, I'd agree . . . in a perfect world, would never have an issue - but I've seen a lot of funny stuff happen - especially if you have a problem you didn't anticipate (like losing a rod bearing) - or some little piece of crap, buried in some damn place you couldn't see and your pressure washer didn't get too - somehow coming loose and going through a bearing. Lastly, I cut my filters apart and check them for signs of bearing issues. Keep in mind that I'm running 21A rods and ancient full-floater bearings - I try to pick the best ones I can find, but who knows how they're going to work out. (I'm kind of an abusive fella!).

Lastly on filtration in general: Today, we all use detergent oil - the 'sump' isn't the collector of sludge and crap like it used to be. Anybody whose taken apart an old flathead with tens of thousands of miles on it (running non-detergent oil) - knows what I'm talking about. You can use a putty knife and a spool to clean the crap up. So - where is all that crap going today? It stays in suspension and is running through your oil, pump, bearings, etc..

Modern engines run for hundreds of thousands of miles - and they all have full-flow filters on them. And I am perfectly aware that we can't compare those miles to ours - very different engine management systems. But, the oil pumps and galleys in these engines aren't really any different than our flatheads - same basic designs, same oiling systems - all with an external filter. They wouldn't put them on the cars if they didn't think they needed them.

So - I'll run my full-flow filter on this engine and we'll see how well it does. Would I suspect that I'd be safe with a '66%' filter - probably, just wanted to go this route instead.

Whew - too much coffee this AM . . . better get my butt to work!

B&S

[JSeery]

B&S, by the way, that is a slick filter setup you have there!

[rotorwrench]

I still don't totally agree that you are going to lose 34% of the oil through the port to the rear main and aft cam bearing. If the rear main. rear con rods, and cam bearing are in good condition, they will slow down a good bit of that flow. If it lost very much pressure, it would show up on your pressure gauge. There is a lot more flow going on elsewhere than that. There are two more cam and main bearing/con rod sets plus all the tappets, timing gears, and the pump push rod. 90% filtration might be more accurate but there are too many flow factors to even be able to calculate it with concerns for individual bearing condition at any point in the life of an engine.

[JSeery]

Not sure that actual amount (% of filtration) is important as far as identifying the type of system is concerned. It is a less than full flow system vs a full flow system. For ID purposes it has been referred to as the 95% for a long time! I think of it as an ID and not a documented fact as to the percentage of oil that passes through the filter per unit of time. Attempting to rename it would most likely just add to the confusion when looking at archived articles on the subject. Ford seemed to be happy with the non-full flow filtration systems in this era. I would have to agree that a full flow system is superior, but then the so called 95% system is much simpler to achieve. I use the 95% system myself mainly because it is easy to remotely hide the filter.

[rotorwrench]

Most all of the manufacturers had the bypass type back in the early era through the post war years. The next improvement is what is generally referred to as the partial flow filtration system was used by Ford and by GM. and others well up into the more modern era. This would provide a more thorough filtration put still allow some flow if the filter started to get clogged.

I think most manufacturers were worried that the filter would plug up and cause starvation. This fear likely governed design changes for a long period before the full flow set ups came along. Spin on filters for aircraft have an internal bypass valve that will open at a higher than normal differential so that the engine will continue to get flow if the filter media is clogged. I'm not sure if any automotive types have this feature but many do have the anti drain back check valve set up. In aviation, you want all you can get for as long as you can get it. We cut the filters open at each oil change (every 50-hours) to look for metallic content as well as abnormal carbon build up the will indicate an internal engine problem.