The Ford Barn

edhd58 · 05-21-2018, 10:28 AM

If the cam timing is off by one tooth which the Ford G six controls the cam timing to a point. Will that cause it not start. The marks line up but it spins over looked crazy won't start. No backfiring or spitting just turns over. It started once and good for about 10 minutes but that was after about20 minutes of cranking.

George/Maine · 05-21-2018, 11:30 AM

Try a few oz of gas in carb

FlatheadTed · 05-21-2018, 03:24 PM

One tooth shouldn't stop it ,it will be low on power though ,check the compression with your thumb it you haven't got a gauge ,Ted

Ol' Ron · 05-21-2018, 03:32 PM

I think one tooth is about 14 degrees. Might want to do a compression check

edhd58 · 05-21-2018, 03:36 PM

It has 125lbs +/- a couple on all cylinders

edhd58 · 05-21-2018, 03:38 PM

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gas in the carburetor or starting fluid either one has no effect

flatjack9 · 05-21-2018, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edhd58

It has 125lbs +/- a couple on all cylinders

You do not have a cam timing problem. Got to be either fuel or spark.

FlatheadTed · 05-21-2018, 04:35 PM

Yes check the spark ,points should be fully open at TDC as a ball park ,Ted

George/Maine · 05-21-2018, 05:10 PM

I think when your dots are lined up it should point to #1 cylinder.
If you take coil wire out of dist. hold close 1/2" see if spark jumps 1/2"
If not tune-up, dist. poinst and condenser..

edhd58 · 05-21-2018, 08:56 PM

Tonight I check points gap, again, its at 0.012. put distributor back in checked for spark, both at distributor end of the coil wire and at each plug. I pulled each plug, grounded it and cranked the motor. It has a nice blue spark all the time, no intermittent sparking.

I then checked the carb once more for float level, and accelerator pump working.

All this after I tried it to see if it would fire. Nothing before or after doing all this.

I have now pulled the front off the motor (timing cover) to check and make sure the marks I think I am supposed to use are lined up. The marks I think I am supposed to be using are lined up.

I have a slot on the cam gear that lines up with the "O" on the crank gear, but there is also an "O" on the cam gear but it doesnt line up with the mark on the crank, its either going to be before or after the crank gear mark. So I lined up the O on the crank and the slot on the cam.

In both pics the O on the crank is lined up with the slot on the cam, the one picture is showing the O on the cam gear marked so you can see where it is against where the slot on the cam gear is.

Am I wrong timing the cam this way??

40cpe · 05-21-2018, 09:24 PM

You had it "purring like a kitten" on the 19th. What makes you think you have a cam timing issue? The distributor was the problem then, check the last thing you changed.

edhd58 · 05-21-2018, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

You had it "purring like a kitten" on the 19th. What makes you think you have a cam timing issue? The distributor was the problem then, check the last thing you changed.

This whole thing started as a bad sound like a rod knocking. That turned out to be bad piston slap. So i tore it down, honed the cylinders and put in NOS pistons and rings. Then put it all back together, same carb, same coil etc etc.

it wouldnt start after I put it back together last week, and I knew the vacuum brake plunger was bad, so I waited to put in the new one.
After i put the new vacuum brake in, I had to crank it a lot again but it did finally start and ran good for about 5 minutes, then again started sputtering and died and hasnt run since.
I did drive it for less than half a mile when it was running good and was afraid I wasnt going to make it back home because it started sputtering while i was driving it.

Until tonight I havent changed a thing except points gap and carb float level.

Tonight I am going back to square one. And because of the multiple marks on this cam gear I am questioning how it should be timed to the crank gear.

George/Maine · 05-21-2018, 10:34 PM

When the gears were pressed on they used the valves to time.
I think the key way on crank is TDC
They want the intake to open at 3 degs BTDC
So look at intake just opening see were key way is. TDC

Make sure the dist is in slut only one way.
Dist cap pass side #1 is in middle. check wiring.
Line up rotor to #1 and see how close you are to TDC.
Your crank gear could be backwards.
Check dot when you are on #1 rotor.

Your Dist slut looks like its been on backwards a few times.
My guess you are out 180 degs.

edhd58 · 05-22-2018, 08:28 PM

I know youre all getting tired of this post, but I am still searching for the solution.
I put a new set of plugs in it tonight and while it did try to start better tonight than last night, it never did run more than a few seconds.
To make it attempt to run, I have to retard the timing as far as the distributor will allow.
I am now beginning to think the machine shop knew the cam gear was marked wrong and adjusted things accordingly.
I talked to the machine shop a few weeks back about the motor, he didnt remember all the details but did remember Egge kept sending him parts for the H 226 and he had to keep sending parts back.
That has me wondering now if the timing gear is for the H and is marked differently than the G is.
I found where to get a G cam gear and am going to get it and see if there is a difference.
Till then, I'm at a loss as what to do next.

JSeery · 05-22-2018, 08:36 PM

How can the engine run fine for, believe you said 5 min and the compression check at 125# and you still think it's a cam timing problem? I don't follow the logic here.

flatjack9 · 05-22-2018, 09:53 PM

Nor do I.

George/Maine · 05-23-2018, 02:44 AM

Look at the slut on end of cam . The dist should go on one way.
The rotor should point to middle wire on cap pass side.
Seeing you don,t want to look at valves look at the rotor.
Make sure the wires are on correct check firing order.
When you have dots lined up do you still have 125 lbs.
my guess you are 180 out and dist on wrong, and wiring wrong.

chap52 · 05-23-2018, 07:35 AM

I remember struggling with a fresh start for a few days..When I put it back together I had the timing gear and the cam gear matching up but they were 180 degrees out. Had to pull the front cover and remove the timing gear, turn the crank into proper position, button it back up.
One of those things I checked several times during assembly and still had the cam out of proper sequence.
Then it fired right up. But it wouldn't start at all. Also as George said the dist. may be 180 out.
Another "Learning Experience". You'll get it figured out. Chap

Kurt in NJ · 05-23-2018, 07:53 AM

do a baisic cam timing check, look a valve motion, there is a place that the exhaust valve is just about to close, and the intake is just opening ---for a very short time both valves are open (overlap) ---then look at piston position, the piston in that cylinder should be at top dead center -----and the dist rotor should be pointing at the contact for the other cylinder that is at top dead center ---on most inline 6 cyl # 1, #6 are paired --#2,#5 ---#3,#4

edhd58 · 05-23-2018, 10:29 AM

JSeery and flatjack. The only reason I am considering cam timing is because have move the distributor timing all way to the top, which think is retarding the timing. Any other position and it never tried to fire.

George. I did as you suggested. I rechecked the plug wires at the distributor and on the plugs. They are correct.
I do want to watch the valves and how they open and close and where the piston is when they are. I wa hoping I could see the crank and watch the valves thru the spark plug hole with the timing cover off but I cant see thecrank. And I cant see the piston thru the spark plug hole. I am considering pulling the head to verify all this. I did the finger over the spark plug hole to find TDC and then looked at the rotor position. It looks a little off. Again I'm going re-look at all this again.

Guys thanks for your suggestions. I taking them heart and checking things suggested. I really appreciate your thoughts.

05-21-2018, 04:35 PM	#8
FlatheadTed Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auckland Posts: 4,705	Re: Timing question Yes check the spark ,points should be fully open at TDC as a ball park ,Ted __________________ http://www.flatheadted.com Flathead Ted brake Floaters ,

05-21-2018, 05:10 PM	#9
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Timing question I think when your dots are lined up it should point to #1 cylinder. If you take coil wire out of dist. hold close 1/2" see if spark jumps 1/2" If not tune-up, dist. poinst and condenser..

05-21-2018, 09:24 PM	#11
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: Timing question You had it "purring like a kitten" on the 19th. What makes you think you have a cam timing issue? The distributor was the problem then, check the last thing you changed.

05-21-2018, 10:34 PM	#13
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Timing question When the gears were pressed on they used the valves to time. I think the key way on crank is TDC They want the intake to open at 3 degs BTDC So look at intake just opening see were key way is. TDC Make sure the dist is in slut only one way. Dist cap pass side #1 is in middle. check wiring. Line up rotor to #1 and see how close you are to TDC. Your crank gear could be backwards. Check dot when you are on #1 rotor. Your Dist slut looks like its been on backwards a few times. My guess you are out 180 degs. Last edited by George/Maine; 05-22-2018 at 11:40 AM.

05-22-2018, 08:28 PM	#14
edhd58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Guston,ky Posts: 653	Re: Timing question I know youre all getting tired of this post, but I am still searching for the solution. I put a new set of plugs in it tonight and while it did try to start better tonight than last night, it never did run more than a few seconds. To make it attempt to run, I have to retard the timing as far as the distributor will allow. I am now beginning to think the machine shop knew the cam gear was marked wrong and adjusted things accordingly. I talked to the machine shop a few weeks back about the motor, he didnt remember all the details but did remember Egge kept sending him parts for the H 226 and he had to keep sending parts back. That has me wondering now if the timing gear is for the H and is marked differently than the G is. I found where to get a G cam gear and am going to get it and see if there is a difference. Till then, I'm at a loss as what to do next.

05-21-2018, 10:28 AM	#1
edhd58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Guston,ky Posts: 653	Timing question If the cam timing is off by one tooth which the Ford G six controls the cam timing to a point. Will that cause it not start. The marks line up but it spins over looked crazy won't start. No backfiring or spitting just turns over. It started once and good for about 10 minutes but that was after about20 minutes of cranking.

05-21-2018, 11:30 AM	#2
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Timing question Try a few oz of gas in carb

05-21-2018, 03:24 PM	#3
FlatheadTed Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auckland Posts: 4,705	Re: Timing question One tooth shouldn't stop it ,it will be low on power though ,check the compression with your thumb it you haven't got a gauge ,Ted __________________ http://www.flatheadted.com Flathead Ted brake Floaters ,

05-21-2018, 03:32 PM	#4
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Timing question I think one tooth is about 14 degrees. Might want to do a compression check

05-21-2018, 03:36 PM	#5
edhd58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Guston,ky Posts: 653	Re: Timing question It has 125lbs +/- a couple on all cylinders

05-21-2018, 03:38 PM	#6
edhd58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Guston,ky Posts: 653	Re: Timing question Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) gas in the carburetor or starting fluid either one has no effect

05-22-2018, 08:36 PM	#15
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Timing question How can the engine run fine for, believe you said 5 min and the compression check at 125# and you still think it's a cam timing problem? I don't follow the logic here.

05-22-2018, 09:53 PM	#16
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: Timing question Nor do I.

05-23-2018, 02:44 AM	#17
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Timing question Look at the slut on end of cam . The dist should go on one way. The rotor should point to middle wire on cap pass side. Seeing you don,t want to look at valves look at the rotor. Make sure the wires are on correct check firing order. When you have dots lined up do you still have 125 lbs. my guess you are 180 out and dist on wrong, and wiring wrong.

05-23-2018, 07:35 AM	#18
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: Timing question I remember struggling with a fresh start for a few days..When I put it back together I had the timing gear and the cam gear matching up but they were 180 degrees out. Had to pull the front cover and remove the timing gear, turn the crank into proper position, button it back up. One of those things I checked several times during assembly and still had the cam out of proper sequence. Then it fired right up. But it wouldn't start at all. Also as George said the dist. may be 180 out. Another "Learning Experience". You'll get it figured out. Chap

05-23-2018, 07:53 AM	#19
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: Timing question do a baisic cam timing check, look a valve motion, there is a place that the exhaust valve is just about to close, and the intake is just opening ---for a very short time both valves are open (overlap) ---then look at piston position, the piston in that cylinder should be at top dead center -----and the dist rotor should be pointing at the contact for the other cylinder that is at top dead center ---on most inline 6 cyl # 1, #6 are paired --#2,#5 ---#3,#4

05-23-2018, 10:29 AM	#20
edhd58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Guston,ky Posts: 653	Re: Timing question JSeery and flatjack. The only reason I am considering cam timing is because have move the distributor timing all way to the top, which think is retarding the timing. Any other position and it never tried to fire. George. I did as you suggested. I rechecked the plug wires at the distributor and on the plugs. They are correct. I do want to watch the valves and how they open and close and where the piston is when they are. I wa hoping I could see the crank and watch the valves thru the spark plug hole with the timing cover off but I cant see thecrank. And I cant see the piston thru the spark plug hole. I am considering pulling the head to verify all this. I did the finger over the spark plug hole to find TDC and then looked at the rotor position. It looks a little off. Again I'm going re-look at all this again. Guys thanks for your suggestions. I taking them heart and checking things suggested. I really appreciate your thoughts.