The Ford Barn

glenn in camino · 07-12-2013, 09:26 PM

I have 2 hones. 1 has 3 flat stones on arms that separate out, with the centrifugal force to make contact with the cylinder walls. The second hone is a bunch of abrasive balls mounted on flexible stems that separate, as they spin, to contact the cylinder walls. Which one should I use on Model A cylinder walls, and what is the proper method of honing?

BILL WILLIAMSON · 07-12-2013, 09:40 PM

Glenn, DON'T use the "ball" hone!!! I used one on a Dodge Colt, washed the walls down thoroughly with Tide & it ate up the rings in 1,200 miles, rings had about .040" end gap. Seems like those hones leave particles imbedded in the pores of the cylinder walls or something???? Thy do a quick pretty job, but would be better suited for removing rust from SEWER PIPES!!! Bill W. (They must be carbide & when wheel cyls are honed with the little ones, they'll eat up the rubbers in a week!)

SeaSlugs · 07-12-2013, 09:48 PM

i hope someone else chines in but in auto mech years ago we used the kind with a buncha balls on it. they work quite well. put it in a drill ( your supposed to do this wet with some kinda compound) then plunge it down and back up in a steady motion.

go all the way to the bottom but not all the way out then pull it back up at the same rate while its spinning at the same RPM. goal is to make a diamond pattern - no screw threads and no chain link fence lookin patterns. NEVER reverse directions mid bore or stop the hone while your honing untill its fully out of the cyl. you may need to knock the ridge off the top of the cyl before honing with a ridge reamer.

i have been told the 3 or 4 spring loaded hones are OK but if they are worn or bent it wont hone correctly or if its got a chip in the hone etc. you dont want grooves or irregularities in the cyl walls. the ball kind are more forgiving in my opinion.

got a junk lawnmower engine to practice with or somehting like it? try each out and see what results you like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTqHQ5b4FAU not quite cyl honing but same principles apply

QGolden · 07-12-2013, 10:47 PM

The ball hone is fine, I own both and the ball hone is quicker. It does not leave a traditional looking crosshatch, but it ls quick. I like to run a steady stream of kerosene into the hone while using it. A 1/4 inch tubing like the type that is sold for fish tanks works. Put some kerosene in a container and set it to siphon down and run into the hone while you use it. It will lubricate and keep the hone clean, and allow you to see the cross hatch develop...

Tom Wesenberg · 07-12-2013, 11:10 PM

I also keep the cylinder walls wet while honing. A rigid hone would be the best, but if the cylinders are round and without taper, either hone will be fine. After honing I use my syphon sprayer with gas to clean the cylinder walls. I use a white rag and clean until the white rags stay white, then I put a good coat of oil on the cylinders and let it set over night. The next day I will clean and oil the cylinders again. That coat of oil setting overnight will often lift some grit to the surface. I also use the syphon sprayer to thoroughly wash the block after honing.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 07-12-2013, 11:49 PM

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Well, good luck with the dingle berry hone. I tole you my sad tale, so my conscience is clear. I've heard similar sad stories from 2 of my automotive machinest friends also.
Bill W.

dave in australia · 07-13-2013, 12:36 AM

The three leg hone will give a more even result for the correct finish. If there is a slight high spot, the stone block will have a slight increase in seating pressure from the other two legs. The dingle berry hone, as Bill calls them, will just jump over the high spots and start to produce a out of round bore, as there is no opposing force to seat the ball.

Bluebell · 07-13-2013, 01:05 AM

The Sheep dag hone (ball hone) is alright if the cylinder is in very good order to start with. the beauty of it is that it looks nice when its finished ( it doesn't matter how out of round or tapered the cylinder is)
Unless things have changed, the goal is a 60 degree cross hatch pattern of the correct grit.(at the exact dia.) (achieved by the correct drill speed and vertical movement combination)
The cheap 3 legged hone is likely to chatter, and make a mess.
A proper parallel hone (the old method of finishing after a rebore) used properly will bring the bore back to round and parellel. Most worn bores are tapered (hence the reason for a ridge remover)
The rings will wear fast in a tapered bore, aside from the fact that the piston to bore clearance can never be close to correct ( if it's bad, a short service life is guaranteed)

PC/SR · 07-13-2013, 02:11 AM

Whatever you use, clean with soap and water and a toilet brush, then oil and paper towels until white.

mpalilonis · 07-13-2013, 05:03 AM

Go to a engine building shop and have it done, don't do it yourself unless your 100% confidant you know what your doing. It will save you time and headaches later on. Good luck!

BCCHOPIT · 07-13-2013, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Well, good luck with the dingle berry hone. I tole you my sad tale, so my conscience is clear. I've heard similar sad stories from 2 of my automotive machinest friends also.
Bill W.

What grit was yours? I think that was the problem. I have used them on bike
Engines for years just to brake the glaze. At work I use small ones to bur small
Bores that get a O ring sliding up and down and they work great.
Also just becouse they fit in the bore that does not mean that is the right size hone for that bore.

Patrick L. · 07-13-2013, 05:34 AM

I feel the ball hones are for glaze breaking, the spring loaded 3-4 arm hones are for finishing and when done there should be a proper cross-hatch. This is on a straight cylinder with no ridge. I also believe in washing the cylinder[s] with hot soapy water then oil them down.

BCCHOPIT · 07-13-2013, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpalilonis

Go to a engine building shop and have it done, don't do it yourself unless your 100% confidant you know what your doing. It will save you time and headaches later on. Good luck!

I think we have a winner!!!!
If you are asking this question you might wont to bring it to a pro.
Have it done with a real machine not some toy with 3 stones hanging
off if it.

Terry, NJ · 07-13-2013, 08:31 AM

Rings are Springs! Just as you don't ignore bumps in the road because they cause the springs to flex more, it's the same with rings.Your cylinder should be straight with a even internal surface for the rings to ride on. Ball hones may be fine to hone a newly bored cylinder, but the fixed stone hone will give you a straighter, more level surface and will cause less flexing of the rings.
Terry

Kurt in NJ · 07-13-2013, 09:58 AM

In most cases you are better off NOT honing , I havn't honed any in chassis re-ring jobs with cast iron rings for the last 20 years, none of them had oil consumption or ring seating problems.

I have experimented on some of the cars I put together for my own use with using USED rings, the car I am driving now has used rings that had 250.000 miles on them when I put them in --(used crank,rods,pistons,rings,bearings put in a different block) ---the other part of the experiment was to use used synthetic oil for a first fill ---so far it has used 2 quarts in 8,000 miles (this is my "green" car, 100% post consumer recycled--even the first tank of fuel was recycled from another car)

redmodelt · 07-13-2013, 10:41 AM

Honing cylinders is to fit new pistons after boring for over size. The cross hatch is to help seat new rings.

Fitting new rings to old pistons, you want to remove any glazing on the walls and have a good cross hatch to help seat the new rings.

Old rings on old pistons, just install them.

If you don't know what you are doing you will blow up the motor so you better take it to a shop that might know what they are doing.

The ridge hone is for finish work after a bore job to fit the pistons, the spring loaded and ball type are for breaking glaze when installing new rings.

mpalilonis · 07-13-2013, 01:52 PM

Glenn... You live in Cali... There's a speed shop on just about every corner out there. Send it to the speed shop and go have a cold one in the mean time.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 07-14-2013, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCCHOPIT

What grit was yours? I think that was the problem. I have used them on bike
Engines for years just to brake the glaze. At work I use small ones to bur small
Bores that get a O ring sliding up and down and they work great.
Also just becouse they fit in the bore that does not mean that is the right size hone for that bore.

BC, I have no idea of the grit, I didn't know they offered different grits. They were probably as rough a grit as ME! Bill W.

Mitch//pa · 07-14-2013, 09:10 AM

yes there are different grits depending on the application and ring type.
Here is a quick tutorial which can explain it better.

http://www.enginehones.com/technical.html

Jim Brierley · 07-14-2013, 12:14 PM

As Tom says, rigid hones are best, but they are expensive. Rigid hones remove any high spots in the cylinders. Ball hones follow all the irregularities in the cyl. so only clean the rust, or whatever, out. Your spring-loaded hone is second best and will likely do what is needed. I use solvent while honing to lube and flush. A good cleaning afterwards is important.

07-12-2013, 09:26 PM	#1
glenn in camino Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camino, CA. Posts: 3,086	honing cylinders I have 2 hones. 1 has 3 flat stones on arms that separate out, with the centrifugal force to make contact with the cylinder walls. The second hone is a bunch of abrasive balls mounted on flexible stems that separate, as they spin, to contact the cylinder walls. Which one should I use on Model A cylinder walls, and what is the proper method of honing?

07-12-2013, 09:40 PM	#2
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: honing cylinders Glenn, DON'T use the "ball" hone!!! I used one on a Dodge Colt, washed the walls down thoroughly with Tide & it ate up the rings in 1,200 miles, rings had about .040" end gap. Seems like those hones leave particles imbedded in the pores of the cylinder walls or something???? Thy do a quick pretty job, but would be better suited for removing rust from SEWER PIPES!!! Bill W. (They must be carbide & when wheel cyls are honed with the little ones, they'll eat up the rubbers in a week!) __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

07-12-2013, 09:48 PM	#3
SeaSlugs Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central, IL Posts: 3,968	Re: honing cylinders i hope someone else chines in but in auto mech years ago we used the kind with a buncha balls on it. they work quite well. put it in a drill ( your supposed to do this wet with some kinda compound) then plunge it down and back up in a steady motion. go all the way to the bottom but not all the way out then pull it back up at the same rate while its spinning at the same RPM. goal is to make a diamond pattern - no screw threads and no chain link fence lookin patterns. NEVER reverse directions mid bore or stop the hone while your honing untill its fully out of the cyl. you may need to knock the ridge off the top of the cyl before honing with a ridge reamer. i have been told the 3 or 4 spring loaded hones are OK but if they are worn or bent it wont hone correctly or if its got a chip in the hone etc. you dont want grooves or irregularities in the cyl walls. the ball kind are more forgiving in my opinion. got a junk lawnmower engine to practice with or somehting like it? try each out and see what results you like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTqHQ5b4FAU not quite cyl honing but same principles apply __________________ 1929 Model AA - Need long splash aprons!

07-12-2013, 10:47 PM	#4
QGolden Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Alton, NH Posts: 1,231	Re: honing cylinders The ball hone is fine, I own both and the ball hone is quicker. It does not leave a traditional looking crosshatch, but it ls quick. I like to run a steady stream of kerosene into the hone while using it. A 1/4 inch tubing like the type that is sold for fish tanks works. Put some kerosene in a container and set it to siphon down and run into the hone while you use it. It will lubricate and keep the hone clean, and allow you to see the cross hatch develop... __________________ It's not what people think they know that will hurt them, it is what they think they know that aint so! -Mark Twain. It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.- Unknown

07-12-2013, 11:10 PM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: honing cylinders I also keep the cylinder walls wet while honing. A rigid hone would be the best, but if the cylinders are round and without taper, either hone will be fine. After honing I use my syphon sprayer with gas to clean the cylinder walls. I use a white rag and clean until the white rags stay white, then I put a good coat of oil on the cylinders and let it set over night. The next day I will clean and oil the cylinders again. That coat of oil setting overnight will often lift some grit to the surface. I also use the syphon sprayer to thoroughly wash the block after honing.

07-12-2013, 11:49 PM	#6
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: honing cylinders Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Well, good luck with the dingle berry hone. I tole you my sad tale, so my conscience is clear. I've heard similar sad stories from 2 of my automotive machinest friends also. Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

07-13-2013, 12:36 AM	#7
dave in australia Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 1,177	Re: honing cylinders The three leg hone will give a more even result for the correct finish. If there is a slight high spot, the stone block will have a slight increase in seating pressure from the other two legs. The dingle berry hone, as Bill calls them, will just jump over the high spots and start to produce a out of round bore, as there is no opposing force to seat the ball.

07-13-2013, 01:05 AM	#8
Bluebell Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 726	Re: honing cylinders The Sheep dag hone (ball hone) is alright if the cylinder is in very good order to start with. the beauty of it is that it looks nice when its finished ( it doesn't matter how out of round or tapered the cylinder is) Unless things have changed, the goal is a 60 degree cross hatch pattern of the correct grit.(at the exact dia.) (achieved by the correct drill speed and vertical movement combination) The cheap 3 legged hone is likely to chatter, and make a mess. A proper parallel hone (the old method of finishing after a rebore) used properly will bring the bore back to round and parellel. Most worn bores are tapered (hence the reason for a ridge remover) The rings will wear fast in a tapered bore, aside from the fact that the piston to bore clearance can never be close to correct ( if it's bad, a short service life is guaranteed)

07-13-2013, 02:11 AM	#9
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,279	Re: honing cylinders Whatever you use, clean with soap and water and a toilet brush, then oil and paper towels until white.

07-13-2013, 05:03 AM	#10
mpalilonis Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Philadelphia, Pa Posts: 62	Re: honing cylinders Go to a engine building shop and have it done, don't do it yourself unless your 100% confidant you know what your doing. It will save you time and headaches later on. Good luck!

07-13-2013, 05:34 AM	#12
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: honing cylinders I feel the ball hones are for glaze breaking, the spring loaded 3-4 arm hones are for finishing and when done there should be a proper cross-hatch. This is on a straight cylinder with no ridge. I also believe in washing the cylinder[s] with hot soapy water then oil them down.

07-13-2013, 08:31 AM	#14
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: honing cylinders Rings are Springs! Just as you don't ignore bumps in the road because they cause the springs to flex more, it's the same with rings.Your cylinder should be straight with a even internal surface for the rings to ride on. Ball hones may be fine to hone a newly bored cylinder, but the fixed stone hone will give you a straighter, more level surface and will cause less flexing of the rings. Terry

07-13-2013, 09:58 AM	#15
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: honing cylinders In most cases you are better off NOT honing , I havn't honed any in chassis re-ring jobs with cast iron rings for the last 20 years, none of them had oil consumption or ring seating problems. I have experimented on some of the cars I put together for my own use with using USED rings, the car I am driving now has used rings that had 250.000 miles on them when I put them in --(used crank,rods,pistons,rings,bearings put in a different block) ---the other part of the experiment was to use used synthetic oil for a first fill ---so far it has used 2 quarts in 8,000 miles (this is my "green" car, 100% post consumer recycled--even the first tank of fuel was recycled from another car)

07-13-2013, 10:41 AM	#16
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,342	Re: honing cylinders Honing cylinders is to fit new pistons after boring for over size. The cross hatch is to help seat new rings. Fitting new rings to old pistons, you want to remove any glazing on the walls and have a good cross hatch to help seat the new rings. Old rings on old pistons, just install them. If you don't know what you are doing you will blow up the motor so you better take it to a shop that might know what they are doing. The ridge hone is for finish work after a bore job to fit the pistons, the spring loaded and ball type are for breaking glaze when installing new rings.

07-13-2013, 01:52 PM	#17
mpalilonis Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Philadelphia, Pa Posts: 62	Re: honing cylinders Glenn... You live in Cali... There's a speed shop on just about every corner out there. Send it to the speed shop and go have a cold one in the mean time.

07-14-2013, 09:10 AM	#19
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: honing cylinders yes there are different grits depending on the application and ring type. Here is a quick tutorial which can explain it better. http://www.enginehones.com/technical.html

07-14-2013, 12:14 PM	#20
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,092	Re: honing cylinders As Tom says, rigid hones are best, but they are expensive. Rigid hones remove any high spots in the cylinders. Ball hones follow all the irregularities in the cyl. so only clean the rust, or whatever, out. Your spring-loaded hone is second best and will likely do what is needed. I use solvent while honing to lube and flush. A good cleaning afterwards is important.