STP and Transmission: any negative experience ?

[Forddan]

Hi

Before you hate me this isn't a thread to ask about the best oil to use in the model A transmission. There are many searching this forum.

What I would like to know, is something simple.

Those, who are using 100% STP in the transmission have experience any negative point ?

Like :

have the external temperature affected the viscosity such that it was not shifting smoothly ?

Or have you experience any other issue that make your mind change, regretting the use of STP ?

Or....you got the idea.

We do not need to enter in another discussion of all the 600 W oils that can be used. I have read them almost all.

In those threads I have NOT read anyone saying something bad about using 100% STP. Because the threads were NOT pointed to get that type of comment, then here we are.

To 100% STP users:

Are you happy with the results ?

Anyone stop using it ?

Will I regret my decision of using 100% STP in my transmission?

Thank you !!!

Cheers
Forddan

[Forddan]

This is the STP I intend to use



Best !!
Forddan

[BillCNC]

I have been using it as it was cheaper than the 600w oil. About two week's ago I bought a case of the 600w and will be swapping the STP out for the 600w.

I have had ZERO negative effect's and would still use it but with this 600w lying around, ... I just want to give it a try.

Regards
Bill

[rfitzpatrick]

Boy! Don't I understand your "Disclaimer" (don't hate me) !! I'm using an ultra heavy duty oil, part number G.L. 1500 from Mikes Affordable and really like it. The next best thing -- installed their transmission dip-stick assembly -- don't have to take up my flood board to check fluid level any more --. Instructions to cutting an opening in your board is included --

I do live South Florida so this oil might not be appricated in the Northern States.

[whirnot]

Although I don't use Stop think the viscosity could be an issue in low temps. Even the 600 w is a little stiff on a cold morning in Oregon.

[rotorwrench]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

600W cylinder oil is a spec that predates modern standards for viscosity. It is still sold more for it's capability to work around steam or for old style worm gear drives. It is a straight mineral type lube that is comparable to GL1 SAE 140 gear lubricants. Any GL1 SAE 140 type lube will work in a model A transmission. STP is a viscosity builder so a person should mix it with a gear lubricant such as SAE 80 or 90 in order to get an acceptable viscosity. Straight STP is more viscous than SAE 140 gear oil and may cause stiffness in the shifting of gears. Too heavy a viscosity is almost as bad as too thin a viscosity. Another thing to consider is if you look at the advertisement in post 2 you will notice that is now has ZDDP additive. This is an EP additive that may have a detrimental effect on the phosphor bronze or brass in the transmission. This is why they used straight mineral oil in the first place. STP is designed for internal combustion engines.

[katy]

STP is not an oil, it's an additive.

[duke36]

Originally Posted by katy

STP is not an oil, it's an additive.

Yes; the closest modern gear oil found, based on inspection of an original "600W" can is 250W, such as Penrite's or Lubriplate SPO 299. These are OK for yellow metals without additives. The ZDDP additive is usually added to engine oils to increase zinc levels but could damage catalytic convertors. That's our understanding why STP discontinued the zinc- rich red bottle in the US some years ago.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Just use 140 W gear oil & learn to shift your gears properly!!!
Bill W.

[mhsprecher]

I use the tranny oil from Bratton's.

FWIW, last weekend on a drive to a cars and coffee, I was crashing gears like crazy. Once it warmed up, I was fine. It was not really cold, just cool and I thought that either: 1. I couldn't shift anymore or 2. my trans was out of oil. I drive it a lot and never really noticed the extent of the crashing before.

[WHN]

We have been using STP in the transmission and rear end for years.

Shifts nicely, no leaks, changes just like the old 600w oil.

I would recommend. I do understand your beginning comment. Enjoy.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by duke36

Yes; the closest modern gear oil found, based on inspection of an original "600W" can is 250W, such as Penrite's or Lubriplate SPO 299. These are OK for yellow metals without additives. The ZDDP additive is usually added to engine oils to increase zinc levels but could damage catalytic convertors. That's our understanding why STP discontinued the zinc- rich red bottle in the US some years ago.

Lubriplate SPO 299 is ISO Grade 1000; they also classify it SAE Gear Oil 250 Heavy. That is quite thick. Probably too thick.

Lubriplate SPO 288, with ISO Grade 680, SAE Gear Oil 250, is closer to the original 600W. This may even be too thick for cold climates, until the transmission warms up. But if you know what's happening and adjust shifting appropriately, it's OK.

The Ford Service Bulletins mention diluting the 600W with 10% kerosene in the winter to thin it out a bit. I don't think I'd bother with that, but you can (if you are driving your A in Minnesota in the winter!). Or use the thinner Lubriplate SPO-277 (ISO 460) in winter, only in the transmission.

With an ISO Grade 680 oil in the transmission, the gears in the transmission will slow down their spinning very quickly when you step on the clutch and shift to neutral. It makes driving and shifting a pleasure. You do not need to double-clutch when going from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd gears. You only need to double-clutch when going from 3rd back down to 2nd gear at speeds above 15 MPH.

MANY Model A transmissions have been filled in the past with "modern" gear oil that is way too thin (like SAE 90 or SAE 140 oil). This was mostly done out of ignorance of what viscosity the original oil was, and the guys used what they had on hand. They did not have an SAE 250 oil (probably didn't even know it existed!). As soon as you do that, the shifting problems begin. You have to double-clutch on every shift because the gears spin too fast for too long, so they clash when you shift. Thus began the old wive's tale that you had to double-clutch a Model A all the time. Not so.

Answering the Original Poster's question, STP is not a stand-alone lubricant, it is a thickener additive. It is not intended (per the manufacturer) to be the only thing you put in a gearbox. They say add 10% STP to your manual transmission oil. Sure, running straight STP may work OK, but why do that when the proper ISO 680 (SAE 250) gear oil is available?

YMMV.

[Joe K]

When did they start putting brass components into Model A transmissions?

I can't think of a one.

STP now 100% and about 30 years. No adverse effects. Of course I don't drive cross country in the car. And I have noticed STP is a little "slow" at first when its below freezing - but so was the 600W.

I may be corrected, but STP in my estimation is probably the "original" synthetic oil - engineered for consistency of viscosity no matter the temperature. That is their selling point as it "holds up" and augments a thinner lubricant.

I believe I have STP in my John Deere 110 tractor - which has a lot of commonality with the Model A transmission - straight cut gears, no synchros. But John Deere wanted all of outdoors and my first born child for the quart of JD branded gear oil for this application. But JD is like that. What the market (and market ignorance) will bear.

Tranny (both of them) still going strong.

Joe K

[BillCNC]

The only time I ever have issues with shifting is when I haven't driven the car in a month or so. You kind of forget all the weird idiosyncrasies the transmission has. It only takes a few miles and it all fall back into place. I know it's not because I now have warmed up the transmission because If I drive it after I let it cool down, it shift's flawlessly, ... leaving muscle memory the only variable that changes.

For myself, ... it's forgetting that on my car, shifting into second requires a slight hook to the left when entering into the gear position. Or like 4th requires a slight twist of the wrist to the right.

Every transmission has it's own of shifting issues, it's just up to the driver to know what they are and not forgetting what's required for the shift.

Depending on how much you drive your car, ... it could be just as simple as a Muscle memory problem.

Regards
Bill

[Forddan]

Thank you all for your answers.

I wrote my "don't hate me" in an ironic and funny way as I have read in many of the previous "gears oil thread" that people ask and ask always the same. So before someone thinks "oh well, hear we go again with the same old story" I just wanted to be funny and clear about my question.

My apologies if was not seen in that way.

Now, to the STP discussion. As I am a newbie on Ford A and don't know anything about mechanics I am cautious before I proceed to my change of the gear oil.

From all what I was able to read, I couldn't find any posting saying something negative about using 100 % STP, less if it is in a ratio 50/50 with one of the 600 W oils sell by the Ford A shops.

Because any of those threads were pointed to just talk about STP, I decided to write this one.

I can see that WHN lives in Connecticut, that means same temperatures at Massachusetts, where I am. And WHN have been using full STP. Beside, I do not plan to drive the A in winter. This one that just finished the A was very relaxed hybernating in the barn. From time to time I was starting it, just to bother him a little :-) . So then why the temp question ? Well, the first week of January we were here in MA without snow but with Minus 11 Celcius = 12,2 Farenheit. Pretty cold, but I couldn't avoid to take him for a ride on that Sunny Saturday.

Now I have new 600W oil from those Ford A sellers. But, I have an almost persistence soft grinding from 1st to 2nd. Not always but enough times to bother me. I have tried shifting immediately or later using double clutching. Both ways with success and failures. From 2nd to 3rd 70% of the time goes fine and others I have a soft grinding.

So, after reading that these 600 W sell buy these A sellers are not precisely what was used during Ford A times I was wondering if I going to full STP , or 50/50 will smooth the shifting to compensate my issue.

Unfortunately I can not find in my area the 600 + modern oils recomended all around also they are sell online in quantities that I will never be able to use them.

With all that, I see STP as a solution.

Best
Daniel (fordan)

[Forddan]

WOW, 2 more posting during my writing. Thank you !!!

[chap52]

Something else that has an impact on smooth shifting is idle speed. Your A should be able to idle with the right hand steering column lever in the all the way up position. If it is idling to fast when you take your foot off the gas to shift then the engine/trans cannot slow down enough to facilitate a smooth shift. Chap

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by chap52

Something else that has an impact on smooth shifting is idle speed. Your A should be able to idle with the right hand steering column lever in the all the way up position. If it is idling to fast when you take your foot off the gas to shift then the engine/trans cannot slow down enough to facilitate a smooth shift. Chap

Thank you Chap !! I read that in the forums. At the "clinic tour day" of my club, the experts told me it was idling nice. I only have the right hand lever 1 or 2 notches down when driving, but to tell you the truth, I only feel a change in acceleration when I go below the middle. I will use it now at the top. Will test it this weekend.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Forddan

Thank you Chap !! I read that in the forums. At the "clinic tour day" of my club, the experts told me it was idling nice. I only have the right hand lever 1 or 2 notches down when driving, but to tell you the truth, I only feel a change in acceleration when I go below the middle. I will use it now at the top. Will test it this weekend.

I think chap means the RIGHT hand lever (the throttle).

If your A is timed correctly, you will want the left hand lever (spark advance) below the middle while driving. Better performance and easier on the engine.

[Terry, NJ]

I think I've read in a couple of places that Bratton's or somebody, maybe every vendor was mixing 50/50 600 with STP. If that's true, you're all using it anyway. As for STP not being a lubricant, Take the test! With a straight blade screwdriver, dip the tip in STP. Now try to hold it by the tip! Betcha can't do it!
Terry

[bucket-o-rust]

I agree with Bill learn to shift correctly and have evey thing in your car set up correctly and you will have no problems shifting. And if you think you need to double clutch then you have some kind of problem and it is not oil. 600 wt has always worked for me. Sometimes people that do not know how to shift need someone that knows how to shift teach them how to shift.

[chap52]

Thank's Dick for clarifying.
Dan, if you don't have an instruction Manual here is the link for a pdf of one. All these lever positions and setting the idle is covered in it. We all learn as we go. Chap
http://motormayhem.net/wp-uploads/20...ion-Manual.pdf

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

I think chap means the RIGHT hand lever (the throttle).

If your A is timed correctly, you will want the left hand lever (spark advance) below the middle while driving. Better performance and easier on the engine.

Thank you. Yes, I wrote right hand lever. The club technician of the club checked the timing too and it was perfect. They also told me to drive the A fully advance based on my timing. And from that day I am doing that. Previously I was half way down.

Cheers
Daniel

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I think I've read in a couple of places that Bratton's or somebody, maybe every vendor was mixing 50/50 600 with STP. If that's true, you're all using it anyway. As for STP not being a lubricant, Take the test! With a straight blade screwdriver, dip the tip in STP. Now try to hold it by the tip! Betcha can't do it!. Terry

Ja, ja,... this is a very slippery test.

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by chap52

Thank's Dick for clarifying.
Dan, if you don't have an instruction Manual here is the link for a pdf of one. All these lever positions and setting the idle is covered in it. We all learn as we go. Chap
http://motormayhem.net/wp-uploads/20...ion-Manual.pdf

This forum is fantastic and you all are soo nice.

Thank you for the info. Is good to have this link.

I have a new copy of the manual in my car and I was able to get an original 1929 for my collection.

I do agree 100 % with the latest comments. Still I need more experience, no discussion at all. My intention is to help that inexperience, probably by improving the gear oil. In other posts I have read about people adding less heavy oil or shifting without clutching, etc. I bet my name that those drivers have many, many years of experience. Could be one day I will achieve it. In the meantime, I am trying to provide the best condition to my gears so i can only focus on improving my expertise.

Cheers
Daniel

[Forddan]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Let me introduce my 1929 Tudor





Best
Daniel - Forddan-

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by Joe K

When did they start putting brass components into Model A transmissions?

I can't think of a one.

STP now 100% and about 30 years. No adverse effects. Of course I don't drive cross country in the car. And I have noticed STP is a little "slow" at first when its below freezing - but so was the 600W.

I may be corrected, but STP in my estimation is probably the "original" synthetic oil - engineered for consistency of viscosity no matter the temperature. That is their selling point as it "holds up" and augments a thinner lubricant.

I believe I have STP in my John Deere 110 tractor - which has a lot of commonality with the Model A transmission - straight cut gears, no synchros. But John Deere wanted all of outdoors and my first born child for the quart of JD branded gear oil for this application. But JD is like that. What the market (and market ignorance) will bear.

Tranny (both of them) still going strong.

Joe K

Hi, On The Early Cluster Gear at each end, Brass/Bronze.. Until 1929

[d.]

check the archives in MARC for Roger Kauffman the Tech advisor for many years. He had a '30 pickup he ran for years, all over the US and used 100% STP in the steering box, transmission and rear end.
He opened them up after 50 k miles and the fluid was clear and everything was operating properly.
A pretty good real life testimonial in my view.

[rotorwrench]

The reverse idler bushing is likely phosphor bronze. I have one of the early transmissions in my A that has the thrust washers. ZDDP is an EP additive with zinc and phosphate that is designed to eat in to the cam and tappet faces in order to act as a sacrificial coating to protect the cam components from uneven wear. It is mildly acidic and can act on the few soft metals in a sliding gear type unit. I don't think it was in the original STP oil treatment from the 1960s as Studebaker Tech Products originally formulated it.

Anyone that describes SAE 140 gear lube as thin hasn't had a bath in it yet. This is a link to Mobil 600W cylinder oil specs.https://www.mobil.com/English-US/Ind...-Cylinder-Oils
This is a link to a viscosity comparison chart. https://www.acculube.com/lubricant-viscosity.html
If you look at Mobil's spec on standard 600W you will see that it is somewhere between the beginning of the SAE 140 range and ISO 460. The Super Cylinder oil is ISO 460. Those above that are out of the 600W range. Even ISO 680 is at the high end of the SAE 140 range.

I realize that this is a plain old sliding dog & gear transmission but that cluster will slow down just fine in the viscosities below SAE 250. If folks want to use a viscosity builder for a gear lube, far be it from me to stop them but is is not a gear lube unless it is mixed with one. The Model A crash box was built with some of the best steel Ford could make at the time and it is a testament to how much they could take from just about anyone with any kind of perceived lubricant put inside of it. It probably would run just fine with John Deere Corn header gearbox lube inside. It damn sure wouldn't leak.

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by d.

check the archives in MARC for Roger Kauffman the Tech advisor for many years. He had a '30 pickup he ran for years, all over the US and used 100% STP in the steering box, transmission and rear end.
He opened them up after 50 k miles and the fluid was clear and everything was operating properly.
A pretty good real life testimonial in my view.

I read that in many posts, but I tried and failed to find those technicals archived files.

Can someone point me where I have to search ?

I did a lot of Google search with different keywords and only postings like yours were found. I failed to find the articles.

Thanks
Daniel

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Forddan

They also told me to drive the A fully advance based on my timing. And from that day I am doing that. Previously I was half way down.

Cheers
Daniel

Daniel,
So now you drive with the left lever (spark advance) all the way down, right?

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by F.M.

Hi, On The Early Cluster Gear at each end, Brass/Bronze.. Until 1929

Hah! You got me there. March 1929 no gots.

Ah well, each to their own. Those who buy Cadillac NEVER regret the decision. Those who bought Yugo now wish they had bought TWO.

Back then they needed it. Not so much now except as investment.

Joe K

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

Daniel,
So now you drive with the left lever (spark advance) all the way down, right?

Correct !!

I have both levers up when I start the A. For driving I use the left (spark lever) all advanced. Car drives very well.

This weekend I drove it under a pretty nasty rain. And all went OK. I was very afraid of any issue due to water, but nothing happened. A woman wrote the club if someone nearby with a 1929 A could take her dad to a surprise party for his 90 years old. The dad is a car fan. I said that I will do it. Saturday was all sunny and Sunday was going to rain late afternoon. Well, all changes in 24 hours. At 10 AM the sky started to pour water. I already have the car out of the barn, so by 11 AM it was all soaked. Suddenly sun. I said now I go. 15' later it was worst. Fortunately I made it to the house. The guy was surprised. He jumped inside the car under the rain. I do not now if it was due to excitement or because it was raining a lot :-). We make it to the restaurant and stop raining. Sun out and 50 family members all around the A taking pictures with the 90 years old guy and a car of the same age. A lot of fun. My round trip was 60 miles. Not bad, mainly because 30 miles were under rain.

Sorry, this is out of topic. But I just wanted to tell it.

Cheers
Daniel Forddan

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by F.M.

Hi, On The Early Cluster Gear at each end, Brass/Bronze.. Until 1929

Mine is from January 1929. Can I be relax about this aspect ?

Thanks
Daniel

[Terry, NJ]

Dan (Fordan) that looks like a very nice Tudor! Good Luck with her! The next gear lube I want to mention is Lucas Hub Oil, which is great for beginners, It won't leak out, It will stiffen up the tranny. So stiff in the winter you may find shifting difficult. The stuff is hard to find, lotta dealers don't have it. You can usually find it in truckstops. For your steering box, try John Deere Cornhead grease. Do not put a grease fitting on the box and pump it up till it's full! "Normal" greases will not run down into the gears. The gears will cavitate and just make a hole in the grease and never get on the teeth where the grease can do it's job. Cornhead grease never gets solid enough to not lube the gears. You'll wonder if it's grease or a heavy oil. $3 a tube at the JD dealership. Type in JD Cornhead grease and JD has a lot of info about it. Not for transmissions though. One more semi solution to the shifting problem is to park on a slope (with the left side down) And fill the transmission with just a little more oil. This gives the gears more liquid resistance. Just a little more, don't try to fill the case. Till you learn to shift, then get that extra oil out of here. Good Luck!
Terry

[Forddan]

Hi Terry. I read about the JD grease/oil. I did not find any negative comment about it. I will go to JD site to read more about it. Thank you for the oil tip !!!

Thanks
Daniel

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Forddan

Correct !!

I have both levers up when I start the A. For driving I use the left (spark lever) all advanced. Car drives very well.

Mine too, Dan.

[Hoovercw]

50/50 STP and Lucas oil stabilizer here. About 15k miles on it. I will probably go with 100% STP next as I do have some difficulty making quiet gear changes. Especially when someone is tailgating from a light and I am working on getting into second in an expedited manner. No ill effects that I can find from the STP though.

[Joe K]

And there are those who have pointed out that current production of STP has bronze attacking additives.

My addition was from back in the "peel off the top" can days - no additive.

I think?

The old stuff is still out there (Ebay)



Joe K

[Terry, NJ]

It MAY be ok, It MAY not be! Generally speaking, in 1930 (28, 29,) it was the place to have your timing lever. However, with the higher compression heads and oversized bores you may have to back off a few degrees or you get preignition and that will ruin your bearings . Have you done a compression test? Your head may be stock, or an aftermarket High Compression. Or just ground. Your cylinders may be as much as .125 oversize or 215 cu. in. as opposed to it's original 200.5 . This is an increase of 7% in horsepower, I don't know what it will increase the Comp. Ratio by. Does it have a large B or C cast into it? This would also indicate either a model B ( C ) or a police head ( B ). Both are higher compression than a stock A head. Normally, most people can hear pinging, I can't. If your engine pings, back the timing off till it stops while at speed on the highway. When climbing steep hills, back the timing off a few degrees. When running slow back it off a few degrees . Modern engines perform these operations automatically as did the later mod B 1932 - 1934. with a centrifical advance This timing stuff is controversial and it can be confusing and you will meet guys who tell you to set it and forget it. But the timing can be critical to engine life, gas mileage, and performance. For me, "set it and forget it" is not good enough.
Terry

Originally Posted by Forddan

Thank you. Yes, I wrote right hand lever. The club technician of the club checked the timing too and it was perfect. They also told me to drive the A fully advance based on my timing. And from that day I am doing that. Previously I was half way down.

Cheers
Daniel

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

It MAY be ok, It MAY not be! Generally speaking, in 1930 (28, 29,) it was the place to have your timing lever. However, with the higher compression heads and oversized bores you may have to back off a few degrees or you get preignition and that will ruin your bearings . Have you done a compression test? Your head may be stock, or an aftermarket High Compression. Or just ground. Your cylinders may be as much as .125 oversize or 215 cu. in. as opposed to it's original 200.5 . This is an increase of 7% in horsepower, I don't know what it will increase the Comp. Ratio by. Does it have a large B or C cast into it? This would also indicate either a model B ( C ) or a police head ( B ). Both are higher compression than a stock A head. Normally, most people can hear pinging, I can't. If your engine pings, back the timing off till it stops while at speed on the highway. When climbing steep hills, back the timing off a few degrees. When running slow back it off a few degrees . Modern engines perform these operations automatically as did the later mod B 1932 - 1934. with a centrifical advance This timing stuff is controversial and it can be confusing and you will meet guys who tell you to set it and forget it. But the timing can be critical to engine life, gas mileage, and performance. For me, "set it and forget it" is not good enough.
Terry

I through so many times about your comments. I think I read it in the drivers manual of the car. The manual explain what you wrote. The driver has to advance the timing with speed and retard in slops.

Then I searched the net and I found all kinds of answers.

As I live in Massachusetts, we are surrounded of slops, a lot. On my first trip to the downtown of my town, I was in the middle of a slop and I have to stop the car, and take it all the way in 2nd. Suddenly I realized I had the lever all retarded.

As this matter (how to use the advance and retard correct) worried me a lot I started to ask all around. At the end all were using it in one position "half or full advanced". The same I was reading on internet.

Bottom line, I followed what i was told at the clinic after the car was tested by experts.

I do not hear any knocking when going up in a slop. But for sure i feel the lost of speed and the effort of the engine.

About the car history:

I was told, and have the pictures of it, that around 2005 the car had an off-body restoration. Fully dismantled and motor was redone. I do not have more info. Only the pictures that proof the restoration. That owner had a bike accident and could not drive it more. Sold the car ~2015 to the person who sold the car to me.

The car is in excellent shape, mechanically and all the rest. No rusted sections at all. Both owners took care of it.

How much is still original in the engine ? I do not have idea.

That is all the info I have.

Cheers
Daniel

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by katy

STP is not an oil, it's an additive.

Katy

Isn't a car oil made of "mineral oil and petroleum distillates " ?

I am asking because I just don't know.

Google " STP MSDS" and will pop up a pdf file with this data on it :

60-100% mineral oil-petroleum distillates
< 5% Calcium long-chain Alkylphenate Sulfide

[Joe K]

You can probably compare the STP MSDS and any car oil MSDS and find they're nearly identical.

Yes, there are those who claim that STP is not a lubricant. And (surprisingly) there are those that claim that car oil is now an "engineered product" and that the old oil of the past is gone.

Truth is - the margins between almost any two products used for lubrication have diminished as engineering continues to "push the envelope."

And - as I said earlier about Cadillacs - nobody will find fault with their own decision - and may even run down or critique decisions made by others.

Not to characterize because I'm one of them - all 64 years of it - but consider who populates this board - all of differing backgrounds, experience, engineering acumen, or confidence levels but with a commonality which is not necessarily complementary - and some consider fault.

And take your informational pill with plenty of water - or scotch - to wash it down.

Joe K

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by Joe K

.....And take your informational pill with plenty of water - or scotch - to wash it down.

Joe K

Joe, I love that end of your post. You are 100 % correct. I was expecting diversity in the answers. From those answers I learn and at the end I have to arrive to a conclusion of what I a m going to do.

For now after all the reading my conclusion is that I do not have enough evidence to feel comfortable using 100% STP.

I have 3 600W oils from Model A sellers. I will pick the one that I feel is more dense and add 10-20 % STP to help on that density.

I think that will work and is within STPs recommendation.

If anyone disagrees, please !!! Let me know the why. That's the only way to learn.

Thanks to all !!
Daniel

[Bob Bidonde]

Opinions are interesting, but of no value without experience to back them up.

SAE 140 gear Oil works in the transmission and the differential! Here is my evidence.


Since I restored the transmission and the differential in my Coupe during the 1970s, it has accumulated 50,000+ miles with SAE 140 Gear Oil in it, and it has not worn-out or broken-down or become noisy. Shifting in hot and cold weather works well. This car cruises at 55 MPH and I have run it over 65 MPH many times with a stock 3.78 differential and no overdrive!

[rotorwrench]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

STP mixture is a trade secret as indicated on the MSDS. What is in there is no mystery it's just the amounts of petrolium and additives is. The stuff was formulated originally back when most of the engine oils available were straight grade like SAE20W20 and SAE 30 which were likely the most popular viscosities used at the time. What Studebaker came up with was an additive that would help an oil burner retain more oil for the short term. Engines with a lot of blow by have a lot of combustion heat getting into the crankcase and further thinning an already thin mixture due to all the excess heat in there. The additives were designed to help the lubricant stick to surfaces better to reduce the blow by a bit. Most folks with a mechanical knowledge of the internal combustion engine know that any "fix" for a worn out engine is temporary in nature. They still burn and leak plenty of oil in that state.

With modern multi viscous oils the 10 in SAE 10W30 is the oil viscosity with the polymers relaxed and in a cool state. The 30 in SAE 10W30 is the viscosity with the polymers fully expanded due to heat. When you add STP oil treatment, its kind of a mystery where the cold & hot viscosities end up during operation of the engine since it is less predictable on where the viscosity will change with the polymers involved. Most folks guess at where they will go. STP Corp will tell you that it increases by about a full SAE index number so in a perfect world that would be somewhere near SAE 20W40 but it's all just a guess. All viscosities break down with time and the pressure of operation so where does it end up after 200 or 2000 miles? We know the polymers also are pretty well spent after 3000 miles as well.

On gear lubes, it's even harder to predict since they are graded differently and with different ranges of viscosity than motor oils. The pressure on them is likely higher than in the engine. What is the viscosity of straight STP? What is it after 2000 or 3000 miles? What is the viscosity of SAE 140 GL1 after you add a pint of STP to a pint of SAE 140? You will quickly find that NO one can answer those questions or what happens after 2000 miles for that matter.

STP had to settle a suit back in 1978 for advertising claims that they couldn't substantiate and they aren't the only ones either. Quaker State was hit pretty hard on Slick 50 as well. Companies producing these products are very careful now not to tell the customer much about what the product actually does for them.

If the product works for you then keep on using it but be aware that there are alternatives. Ford dropped the use of 600W after the model A era when they started using partially synchronized transmissions and they never went back. They were using SAE 80 gear lube in the cooler climates and SAE 90 in the warmer climates. The gear oil mixed with soda soap for the U-joint was the only odd mix after that.

[katy]

[QUOTE=Forddan;1760872]Katy

Isn't a car oil made of "mineral oil and petroleum distillates " ?

I am asking because I just don't know.

Google " STP MSDS" and will pop up a pdf file with this data on it :

60-100% mineral oil-petroleum distillates
< 5% Calcium long-chain Alkylphenate Sulfide

You're correct, STP is a type of oil, but it's not sold as an oil it's sold as an additive.

[rotorwrench]

All lubricants that are natural mineral base are a product of fractional distillation process from crude oil in a heated column. Oils for lubricants will come from a paraffinic crude that contains hydrocarbon chains that are good for this purpose. There are other forms of crude oil but they aren't all conducive for the purpose of distilling out good quality lubricants.

It depends on what part of the fractionating column the liquid is siphoned from as to whether it will have the properties required for specific base stocks in the lubricant blending process. Additives for anti wear, anti corrosion, anti sludge, and anti foaming are all added in during a blending process and each company that sells one of these products has their own recipes but by nature of the use, they are pretty much the same product. In order to meet MIL-Specs, they have to be the same. I watched an episode of "How It's Made" where they were blending a batch of motor oil in a mixing vat. One of the employees came over with a bale of polymer plastic material and just dumped it in there. I was surprised that that is how the multi viscous oil was blended. After it was all mixed up, it all went to the bottling station for consumer packaging.

Heavy gear lubricants come off a lower part of the column. A GL1 grade of lube will have no EP additives and a lesser amount of overall additives blended in where a GL5 will have more with the EP additive blended in.

[Terry, NJ]

I watch "how it's made" too!You seem to know more than I do about oils and such. Maybe you can answer this. It's always bothered me. Back in the day around 1962 my friend and I barely managing to keep a 53 Ford with a flat head V8 running. This Thing was using oil! A trip 20 miles out and 20 miles back would use as much as 4-5 qts. We had no money for this and we got oil from anywhere we could just keep pressure in the engine. When we got the engine out we found about 60 (1/16) endplay in the crank. But we had a guy next door who donated about 10 gals of used 10 weight vacuum pump oil. We were very nervous about using such light oil. We would have preferred 90 wt gear oil. Finally, push came to shove and one day when the end was getting close, we poured the stuff in. A few miles down the road, we checked it. Yeah it was down a little but no where near what we thought it would be, 10 Wt? we thought the stuff would run through the engine like water through a screen. It actually cut the consumption a little better than half. Can you explain why the super light vacuum pump oil stayed in the engine while the normal motor oil poured out?
Terry

[rotorwrench]

Vacuum pump oil is special stuff. It is distilled sometimes multiple times to lower its vapor pressure and reduce any moisture content. The lower vapor pressure is important when it is acting to help a rotary vane type pump seal between the normal outside air pressure and the low pressure of the vacuum being drawn. Being a highly refined material, I'm not surprised that it would last longer in an engine with a lot of blow by. I don't know how well it lubricates but I doubt it would hurt an internal combustion engine in the short term. The only problem is that the extra steps it goes through in the refining processes make it an expensive product for use in an engine. The low viscosity may also lower the oil pressure if there is a lot of clearance in the old worn bottom end bearings. It would likely have no additives to hold waist products in suspension either. In a vacuum pump, there is no worry about combustion byproducts.

[Terry, NJ]

Thanks Rotor, This sorta bothered myself and my friend, the why of what kept it in the engine when it was so light. As far as I can recall, it didn't seem to effect the power one way or another. Within a week we had the engine out of there and replaced with a "new" rebuilt from R & S.
Terry

[DHZIEMAN]

On the STP web page under FAQ is the following:
Can I use STP® Oil Treatment in my manual transmission?

STP® Oil Treatment has been used successfully in manual transmissions, gearboxes and differentials at a 10% treat-rate by volume (i.e., 90% oil and 10% Oil Treatment by volume). Do not overfill.

[fuzes45]

Back in the 60's to 70's, Young kids filled tranny with STP, went down road


And it blew. I would mix 50-50 with oil.

[M2M]

Originally Posted by DHZIEMAN

On the STP web page under FAQ is the following:
Can I use STP® Oil Treatment in my manual transmission?

STP® Oil Treatment has been used successfully in manual transmissions, gearboxes and differentials at a 10% treat-rate by volume (i.e., 90% oil and 10% Oil Treatment by volume). Do not overfill.

Clever answer...rather than say "yes you can use it" they said it's "been used successfully"...that's not a yes.

[M2M]

Originally Posted by Jim/TX/GA

Lubriplate SPO 299 is ISO Grade 1000; they also classify it SAE Gear Oil 250 Heavy. That is quite thick. Probably too thick.

Lubriplate SPO 288, with ISO Grade 680, SAE Gear Oil 250, is closer to the original 600W. This may even be too thick for cold climates, until the transmission warms up. But if you know what's happening and adjust shifting appropriately, it's OK.

The Ford Service Bulletins mention diluting the 600W with 10% kerosene in the winter to thin it out a bit. I don't think I'd bother with that, but you can (if you are driving your A in Minnesota in the winter!). Or use the thinner Lubriplate SPO-277 (ISO 460) in winter, only in the transmission.

With an ISO Grade 680 oil in the transmission, the gears in the transmission will slow down their spinning very quickly when you step on the clutch and shift to neutral. It makes driving and shifting a pleasure. You do not need to double-clutch when going from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd gears. You only need to double-clutch when going from 3rd back down to 2nd gear at speeds above 15 MPH.

MANY Model A transmissions have been filled in the past with "modern" gear oil that is way too thin (like SAE 90 or SAE 140 oil). This was mostly done out of ignorance of what viscosity the original oil was, and the guys used what they had on hand. They did not have an SAE 250 oil (probably didn't even know it existed!). As soon as you do that, the shifting problems begin. You have to double-clutch on every shift because the gears spin too fast for too long, so they clash when you shift. Thus began the old wive's tale that you had to double-clutch a Model A all the time. Not so.

Answering the Original Poster's question, STP is not a stand-alone lubricant, it is a thickener additive. It is not intended (per the manufacturer) to be the only thing you put in a gearbox. They say add 10% STP to your manual transmission oil. Sure, running straight STP may work OK, but why do that when the proper ISO 680 (SAE 250) gear oil is available?

YMMV.

Very good information here and you're spot on by asking why use STP when you can buy proper gear oil to suit the car.

I think you're probably correct that real 600w (not the fake stuff the suppliers sell) was thicker than SAE 140. Note that there was a SAE 190 standard for gear oil, and it's still available:

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2498.pdf

(this Amsoil is good but expensive)

Penrite Transoil 250 is a better way to go than STP but I don't like that a full spec sheet doesn't exist (such as the spec sheet on the Amsoil 190 and 250 SAE in the link just above)...fair-dinkum oil makers provide full specs unless they're selling low quality stuff. We don't know the pour point for Penrite Transoil 250 but my guess is it's around freezing.

Lubriplate SPO 288 spec sheet is here:

https://www.lubriplate.com/Lubriplat...s.pdf?ext=.pdf

Non-synthetic Lubriplate and Penrite are good, but the Amsoil synthetic clearly outperforms them.

For a few dollars more than Lubriplate SPO 288 and Penrite Transoil 250, but cheaper than Amsoil, you can buy high quality full synthetic ISO grade 680 gear oil that's yellow metal friendly and with a pour point of -30F. The problem is often these oils are only available in 5 gallon pale size or larger but I've found a couple of companies that sell it in gallon jugs for a fair price for the quality you get.

[updraught]

The first 1/3rd of this is interesting about STP lubrication and wear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CfLBkew2c

It may not have been invented in the USA ...
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-11521614

[Forddan]

Hi all

I wanted to update the thread letting you all know what I finally did.

After all your answers and my readings I decided to order a gear oil that I can buy in small quantities and could be as dense as STP. If you pour a bit of each one, they both looks very similar, concerning density. Definitely they are more dense than the 600W oils I have from 3 different Model A vendors.

https://www.restorationstuff.com/eco...oducts_id=1088

LUBO26 (Meropa 1500) from Restoration Supply Company.

I did the oil change yesterday, but couldn't test it because it was raining. I will go out today for a short test. Tomorrow I have to drive 30 miles to a model A club picnic (60 miles round trip).

After the weekend I will let you know if I have seen any difference when shifting gears. Nevertheless, I have seen I am improving and most of the times I am able to shif with just a small grinding or without. Let see if this more dense oil helps me on my learning curve.

Cheers
Daniel

[Forddan]

I drove the A ~3 miles. As I am new, I am not sure if what happened was normal or not after a transmission oil change.

Started and warmed the car for a few minutes. Until the idle sounded good. Left the barn and when I tried to do 2nd gear it was too difficult. I tried double clutching or directly when the car just started to move. Very difficult. I live in a quiet street and drove along it, several times, stopping and starting again. Trying to understand if I screwed it. Then shifting started to go better and better with no grinding at all or very soft.

Question to the experts: I drained the transmission overnight and filled next morning with the Meropa 1500.

Could be It took time to this gear oil to oil all the gears ? (As if they were too dry)

Could be it was a combination of temperature (~21 C/70F) with the fact the oil was new and not yet well distributed?

Well, after I feel all was going back to normal I took it for a ride to the gas station under a soft midday local traffic. I tried not to think too much if the gears will grind or not. I focused my attention on the motor sound and time to shift. It went very well. Shift changed much better.

Let's see tomorrow during the long trip.

Cheers
Daniel

[ryanheacox]

Highly doubt the gears were dry as the counter shaft is always spinning and slinging oil all over the inside of the transmission.


It sounds like a typical Model A to me, they can be very particular about rev matching. I think you'll find the more you drive the better it'll shift.



There have been a couple cases when I missed the 1-2 shift, tried to rev the engine to match the road speed and ended up having to stop and start over... this happened right after getting the car out for the season, had to re-learn how to shift.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Difficult to shift - grinding gears?


I had this issue, then had my carb gone through, and was amazed how low teh A would idle.


After the idle was down, found that shifting was a lot easier. With idle at 400- 500 rpm, upshifting at lower Rpms, off the gas and pushing clutch in, waiting a second before shifting into neutral, wait another 1- 2 seconds then softly shift into the gear, work great. Was amazed at how smoothly it shifted. Can't hurry the shifting.

[Joe K]

More likely the "time" involved was the time necessary to "heat" the oil to operating temperature.

I know even with my STP - the first 400 yards of driving is a miserable gear change. Then it sort of "loosens up" and becomes more normal. Not a lot of gear clash - and yes, as I drive and re-attune myself to the car I clash less.

Joe K

[SAJ]

I agree with Joe K. I use a mix of Mobil 680, STP and Moly disulphide. First thing when it is really thick the gears slow down so fast when you de clutch that I can just whisk it through like a synchro box -Straight through as fast as you can. After a few minutes the lube warms and thins and gears slow down less rapidly and then normal double de-clutching becomes necessary.
This cold oil experience proves that thicker oils change easier than SAE 140 or 190 in my opinion.
I tested and set my brew to an SAE 280 viscosity spec, with higher viscosity index (less reduction in viscosity with increasing temperature) than the raw Mobil 680, due to the added STP
SAJ in NZ

[M2M]

Originally Posted by Forddan

I drove the A ~3 miles. As I am new, I am not sure if what happened was normal or not after a transmission oil change.

Started and warmed the car for a few minutes. Until the idle sounded good. Left the barn and when I tried to do 2nd gear it was too difficult. I tried double clutching or directly when the car just started to move. Very difficult. I live in a quiet street and drove along it, several times, stopping and starting again. Trying to understand if I screwed it. Then shifting started to go better and better with no grinding at all or very soft.

Question to the experts: I drained the transmission overnight and filled next morning with the Meropa 1500.

Could be It took time to this gear oil to oil all the gears ? (As if they were too dry)

Could be it was a combination of temperature (~21 C/70F) with the fact the oil was new and not yet well distributed?

Well, after I feel all was going back to normal I took it for a ride to the gas station under a soft midday local traffic. I tried not to think too much if the gears will grind or not. I focused my attention on the motor sound and time to shift. It went very well. Shift changed much better.

Let's see tomorrow during the long trip.

Cheers
Daniel

Good that you opened your mind and didn't join the STP bandwagon but you chose a ISO 1500 oil, the thickest possible gear oil, while you don't live in a hot climate area; see:

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...&docFormat=PDF

Meropa 1000 or 680 would have been better for you but it's not sold in quart bottles as far as I know

Do you plan to use your A in cold weather? If yes, you could perhaps mix in some of the supplier's "600W" or better yet Lubriplate SPO-299 or SPO-288, or Amsoil SAE190 or SAE250.

[M2M]

Originally Posted by SAJ

I agree with Joe K. I use a mix of Mobil 680, STP and Moly disulphide. First thing when it is really thick the gears slow down so fast when you de clutch that I can just whisk it through like a synchro box -Straight through as fast as you can. After a few minutes the lube warms and thins and gears slow down less rapidly and then normal double de-clutching becomes necessary.
This cold oil experience proves that thicker oils change easier than SAE 140 or 190 in my opinion.
I tested and set my brew to an SAE 280 viscosity spec, with higher viscosity index (less reduction in viscosity with increasing temperature) than the raw Mobil 680, due to the added STP
SAJ in NZ

How did you come up with the SAE 280 figure for your brew? Does adding STP increase or decrease the viscosity index (a measure of the quality of the oil)?

[Forddan]

Originally Posted by M2M

Good that you opened your mind and didn't join the STP bandwagon but you chose a ISO 1500 oil, the thickest possible gear oil, while you don't live in a hot climate area; see:

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...&docFormat=PDF

Meropa 1000 or 680 would have been better for you but it's not sold in quart bottles as far as I know

Do you plan to use your A in cold weather? If yes, you could perhaps mix in some of the supplier's "600W" or better yet Lubriplate SPO-299 or SPO-288, or Amsoil SAE190 or SAE250.

I got the car on the first week of January this year. I was very lucky that we didn't have snow yet. Normally we have a white Christmas. The seller drove it home. Next day I drove it a few miles (-11 Celcius/12F that day in January) (seller used 600W) and went to the barn. 3 days later we had a nice snow storm. The Tudor spent the rest of the winter comfortable in the barn. I do not plan to drive it this next winter either. Only until the town start to salt the streets.

Nevertheless temperatures in October/November could be around 8 Celcius/46 F or lower. If I start to see that the Meropa 1500 affects the shifting then I will mix it with the 600W, as suggested, like 50/50.

In my club there is only 1 member using STP mixed with 600W (50/50). If that ratio is working for him with MA temperatures, I suspect that the mix of Meropa 1500 and 600W will work too. I also read a posting of 2 members using STP, one living in CT and the other in NH. They have too my temperatures. If STP density is working for them, could be the Meropa 1500 will work for me. I will see.

Today will be a normal June day with good temperatures and no rain (finally :-) ).

Temperature will be between 18C/64F and 23C/73F . In a couple of hours I will drove the A ~30 miles to the Model A club picnic. All backroads and i will get the true feeling if I am happy with my decision (at least for the summer).

Thank you for proving your experts comments. I learn from every posting.

Will let you all know what happened.

Best
Daniel

[Corley]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I've had a ton of these trans apart over the years, and found them filed with everything from light weight motor oil to almost axle grease. I can't honestly say that any failure I've seen was due to the WRONG lub. Failures due to NO lub, yes, but not due to the wrong lub. It is not that fussy guys... But, use something that won't leak out too easily, meaning a thicker pub, not motor oil.

To those with grinding gears: Shift slowly, you don't have synchronizers, and remember, get into second right away. First is only needed to get her rolling, then move up to second. Second to third, just slow down your shifting and you won't be grinding. (And as previously mentioned, a nice low idle speed to allow the gears to align helps a lot.)

The biggest problem with using STP is cleaning up after getting near the stuff. A trans full of it is a sticky messy proposition, when you have to work on it. Plus, it is a bit thicker than needed.

Just my opinion...

[SAJ]

M2M. If you are asking how I got SAE 280 viscosity I used a Brookfield viscometer to return the Mobil 680 to its original viscosity after adding a percentage (I think 10% from memory) of MoS2 oil and then adding STP oil treatment to thicken back up. STP polymers increase the viscosity with temperature index.
I am in Canada at present so don't have access to my laboratory books.
I made 20 litres up years ago and other club members have been using it up too.
I had a full oil lab then since I manufactured oils and greases under the Rocol brand. I still have viscometers but no longer other lubricant testing gear.
If you are asking why I chose SAE280 viscosity spec. it was simple because that is what the original 600W oil viscosity was as far as I recall without access to my notes from many years ago.
I did not spend any time on researching and testing, just made the mix and found it worked better than that from one of the parts suppliers.
Plus I studied tribology when it was a new science in the early 60s and have experience of gear lubes from my manufacturing days.
SAJ in NZ

[Forddan]

Drove 60 miles today with the Meropa 1500 and haven't seen/feel any difference with the 600W, from one of my local model A parts sellers, when shifting.

It is a learning curve.

Best to all, this is the end, for me, of this threads. You guys can continue posting. Interesting comments on the last postings.

Daniel

[M2M]

Originally Posted by SAJ

M2M. If you are asking how I got SAE 280 viscosity I used a Brookfield viscometer to return the Mobil 680 to its original viscosity after adding a percentage (I think 10% from memory) of MoS2 oil and then adding STP oil treatment to thicken back up. STP polymers increase the viscosity with temperature index.
I am in Canada at present so don't have access to my laboratory books.
I made 20 litres up years ago and other club members have been using it up too.
I had a full oil lab then since I manufactured oils and greases under the Rocol brand. I still have viscometers but no longer other lubricant testing gear.
If you are asking why I chose SAE280 viscosity spec. it was simple because that is what the original 600W oil viscosity was as far as I recall without access to my notes from many years ago.
I did not spend any time on researching and testing, just made the mix and found it worked better than that from one of the parts suppliers.
Plus I studied tribology when it was a new science in the early 60s and have experience of gear lubes from my manufacturing days.
SAJ in NZ

SAJ, if you can find the info that says original 600W is SAE 280 I'd be very interested in that...that's always been a mystery in 600w discussions.

Does anyone know how hot the gear oil usually gets inside a transmission and inside a differential?

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by M2M

SAJ, if you can find the info that says original 600W is SAE 280 I'd be very interested in that...that's always been a mystery in 600w discussions.

Does anyone know how hot the gear oil usually gets inside a transmission and inside a differential?

I have measured mine after runs for comparison with other components. The exterior has been a consistent 110 -120 deg. F depending on the ambient temperature and whether or not I came home by way of a long, steep hill and how much heat it absorbs from the engine. These are external temperatures, and not the internal, which may be slightly higher.
Terry

[Tom Wesenberg]

After a 17 mile drive at 85* my rear axle temp was still below 100*.
I didn't shoot the tranny temp.


BTW, I like MMO, STP, and Sea Foam. They've all done good things, just as they are supposed to.

[M2M]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I have measured mine after runs for comparison with other components. The exterior has been a consistent 110 -120 deg. F depending on the ambient temperature and whether or not I came home by way of a long, steep hill and how much heat it absorbs from the engine. These are external temperatures, and not the internal, which may be slightly higher.
Terry

Thanks Terry for the info but wouldn't the temperature of the oil inside the tranny be significantly higher rather than slightly higher?

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by M2M

Thanks Terry for the info but wouldn't the temperature of the oil inside the tranny be significantly higher rather than slightly higher?

Good Question! Possibly in the winter. Not appreciably in the summer. These temperatures were taken immediately after shutting the car down from a run. One part of which is on a highway, which is long and steep. Ambient summer temperatures locally, run about 75 to 90 F, so the transmission and rear end are not getting a good chill as they would in the winter.
Terry