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Old 01-28-2020, 05:57 AM   #21
Merc Cruzer
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

Between this and the prior postings:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...+53%27+Mercury

My hope is that someone else will be able to use it in the future.
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Old 01-28-2020, 06:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

How would distributor orientation have anything to do with pulley-TDC location??
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:23 AM   #23
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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How would distributor orientation have anything to do with pulley-TDC location??
It was the "artificial" TDC location on the pulley, that was established by the distributor being one tooth off.

The TDC button (timing mark) on the far left, on the pulley, is the correct TDC (actually 2 degrees off). The mark on the far right of the pulley was the "artificial" TDC with the distributor one tooth off.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:39 AM   #24
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Default Re: Pulley casting number

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Looks OK, now rotate the distributor (CCW) to bring the rotor to where it will be in alignment with the cap #1 position. lock it down and start it up.
Should be good to go for timing adjustment.
One final issue: I moved the rotor one tooth counter clockwise, as pictured yesterday. Took the vacuum line off the vacuum advance pod, plunged it and then set the timing. Everything is good and the timing is right on, using the timing button and the pointer.

The issue is that in order to get the timing correct, the vacuum pod is literally pushed into the thermostat housing, and will not allow any further rotation/ advance adjustment. Have you seen this previously?
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:21 AM   #25
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Default Re: Pulley casting number

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One final issue: I moved the rotor one tooth counter clockwise, as pictured yesterday. Took the vacuum line off the vacuum advance pod, plunged it and then set the timing. Everything is good and the timing is right on, using the timing button and the pointer.

The issue is that in order to get the timing correct, the vacuum pod is literally pushed into the thermostat housing, and will not allow any further rotation/ advance adjustment. Have you seen this previously?

Yes, had the same situation.

You can rotate the distributor and rotor 1 tooth clock wise, remembering to keep the rotor at the same #1 cap location.
This moves the distributor about 32 .72 or 1 inch at the cap O.D.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you can rewire the plugs on the distributor cap to make any terminal #1. That would allow distributer rotation for diafragham clearance.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:37 AM   #27
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you can rewire the plugs on the distributor cap to make any terminal #1. That would allow distributer rotation for diafragham clearance.
Correct that you could make any cap location #1 but if just rotating the distributor corrects the problem why relocate wires?
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:18 AM   #28
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

BUT moving the distributor one tooth doesn't change the TDC location on the pulley. The OP said he verified the TDC using the cable tie method to be about 1 1/2" in advance of the factory timing button. The car ran well while timed to the verified location. It seems all he has done is moved the distributor one notch and retimed it to the factory button. How does it run now?
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:03 AM   #29
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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BUT moving the distributor one tooth doesn't change the TDC location on the pulley. The OP said he verified the TDC using the cable tie method to be about 1 1/2" in advance of the factory timing button. The car ran well while timed to the verified location. It seems all he has done is moved the distributor one notch and retimed it to the factory button. How does it run now?
You are correct: "It seems all he has done is moved the distributor one notch and retimed it to the factory button"

This should have read: "verified the TDC using the cable tie method to be about 1 1/2" in advance of the of the new TDC mark on the pulley." Sorry for the confusion.

Starts easier and sounds good. It snowed last night, so the test run will be some time this weekend, once the roads are clear again. Also this confirms, my timing light, works as it should.The timing light was the first suspect.
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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Correct that you could make any cap location #1 but if just rotating the distributor corrects the problem why relocate wires?
Good point. Thanks.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:11 PM   #31
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

Back in the day when I was buying $100 junkers for my daily transportation, just about all of them would benefit greatly with a simple tune-up. I would be willing to bet that over half of the cars I worked on had the plug wires in the wrong positions. It was just easier to change the wires than to re-stab an improperly installed distributor. I had a '68 Corvette that had a mis-wired distributor and a slipped harmonic balancer. The car ran great the way it was, but it took me over a year to figure out what was wrong and fix it. The only symptom was that it wouldn't run for shit when it appeared to be timed correctly.
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Old 01-28-2020, 03:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

Here is the point---If the engine performed BEST with timing flashing 1 1/2 inches from TDC it should continue running at its best at that 1 1/2 inch location no matter how many distributor teeth are relocated.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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Here is the point---If the engine performed BEST with timing flashing 1 1/2 inches from TDC it should continue running at its best at that 1 1/2 inch location no matter how many distributor teeth are relocated.
I've had a hard time following this for the same reason, not sure what is really going on here.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

Me, too, JSeery. Here's my understanding and summary. The PO's car was timed to the factory marks and hesitating, spitting. He found a mark scribed on the lock down pad (I think) of the distributor and set the timing to that mark. The engine ran good, but the new timing was about 1 1/2" advanced from the factory mark. He was advised to locate TDC with the cable tie method. He did and it verified his advanced timing mark as TDC, about 1 1/2" advanced of the factory mark. He explored the possibility of the wrong crank pulley and was advised (because of the position of his rotor) to rotate his distributor one tooth and re-time. Here is where it gets unclear to me. Without giving specifics, he indicated the problem was solved. So I'm assuming he moved the distributor one tooth and re-timed to factory marks and it runs well. We know that rotating the distributor won't change the TDC indicator, unless something else has changed.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:00 PM   #35
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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Me, too, JSeery. Here's my understanding and summary. The PO's car was timed to the factory marks and hesitating, spitting. He found a mark scribed on the lock down pad (I think) of the distributor and set the timing to that mark. The engine ran good, but the new timing was about 1 1/2" advanced from the factory mark. He was advised to locate TDC with the cable tie method. He did and it verified his advanced timing mark as TDC, about 1 1/2" advanced of the factory mark. He explored the possibility of the wrong crank pulley and was advised (because of the position of his rotor) to rotate his distributor one tooth and re-time. Here is where it gets unclear to me. Without giving specifics, he indicated the problem was solved. So I'm assuming he moved the distributor one tooth and re-timed to factory marks and it runs well. We know that rotating the distributor won't change the TDC indicator, unless something else has changed.
You are close. This all started when I decided to set the timing with a timing light as apposed to setting it with the best vacuum then backing it off a bit. The car has been running this way for the past 8 years.

When I used the timing light, for some reason it was 1 1/2" off the timing button. I posted the question, why?

I have attached a picture of the pulley with the factory timing marks (on the left) and the location of the artificial TDC in silver marker, that is one tooth off (on the right) when using a timing light. My goal was to find out why and then correct the situation to use the factory timing marks.

There were many suggestion and questions during the course of the discussion.

The final solution, was that the distributor was off on tooth. If I pulled the distributor up and rotated it one tooth (counter clock wise), I would then be able to use a timing light and the original factory timing mark on the pulley.

Bottom line, I did move the distributor back one tooth and now, I am able to use the timing light in conjunction with the factory timing dot on the pulley. Problem solved.
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:06 AM   #36
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

I am afraid this is not yet understood. Changing distributor teeth has NOTHING to do with the relationship between the timing light and the pulley marker for where best performance is achieved. Where the light flashes on the pulley/pointer is the actual ignition timing. If the engine ran at it's best with the flashing light 1 1/2 inches beyond the pointer it will continue to do so no matter which distributor tooth is engaged. Changing tooth engagement does not impact the relationship between spark timing and best engine performance.


Of course connecting the light to the wrong plug wire will alter results.
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

The cable tie method of finding TDC ia a time honored method of finding TDC. If you on't like this method just remove the head and use a positive stop. The object here is to find TDC. "THen" we can deal with timing the engine. Thanks Bruce!
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:31 AM   #38
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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I am afraid this is not yet understood. Changing distributor teeth has NOTHING to do with the relationship between the timing light and the pulley marker for where best performance is achieved. Where the light flashes on the pulley/pointer is the actual ignition timing. If the engine ran at it's best with the flashing light 1 1/2 inches beyond the pointer it will continue to do so no matter which distributor tooth is engaged. Changing tooth engagement does not impact the relationship between spark timing and best engine performance.


Of course connecting the light to the wrong plug wire will alter results.
Maybe if you replace "location of the artificial TDC in silver marker, that is one tooth off (on the right) when using a timing light" with [I]"Where the light flashes on the pulley/pointer is the actual ignition timing.", is the way it should have read.

I agree with your statement: "If the engine ran at it's best with the flashing light 1 1/2 inches beyond the pointer it will continue to do so no matter which distributor tooth is engaged.", but I wanted it to run where the timing light was pointed at the timing "dot" on the pulley. In order to do that I had to move the distributor one tooth CCW.

That is all what the post was about, nothing more. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:22 PM   #39
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

I think I'm getting brain cramp but I'm tossing this out there as my conclusion.


Consider that the distributor lobe has 8 positions, each dedicated to its own cylinder in the firing
order.
Moving the the rotor 1 tooth, moves the #1 position closer to either #5 or #2 position on the cap (depending
on direction rotor was moved.
The #1 position is now using either #5 or #2 position on the lobe.
So now when a timing light is used on #1 wire the signal is really giving an indication of timing
for either #5 or #2 position.
That is why it will not show correct reading on indicator.
If when the problem was first detected, the timing light was connected to the #5 or #2 wire
the pointer and dot would have been illuminated..
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File Type: jpg ONE TOOTH OFF3.jpg (36.7 KB, 45 views)
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Old 01-29-2020, 05:35 PM   #40
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Default Re: Distribator off by one tooth - Pulley casting number

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Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT View Post
I think I'm getting brain cramp but I'm tossing this out there as my conclusion.


Consider that the distributor lobe has 8 positions, each dedicated to its own cylinder in the firing
order.
Moving the the rotor 1 tooth, moves the #1 position closer to either #5 or #2 position on the cap (depending
on direction rotor was moved.
The #1 position is now using either #5 or #2 position on the lobe.
So now when a timing light is used on #1 wire the signal is really giving an indication of timing
for either #5 or #2 position.
That is why it will not show correct reading on indicator.
If when the problem was first detected, the timing light was connected to the #5 or #2 wire
the pointer and dot would have been illuminated..
Hopefully the pictures will help:

Picture #4 - First the timing mark on the pulley is aligned with the timing pin mounted to the front of the timing cover, on the compression stroke.

Picture #1 - distributor cap with arrow pointing to wire for #1 cylinder

Picture #2 - original location of rotor

Picture #3 - location of rotor after moving it CCW one tooth
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File Type: jpg DSCN9996 -1.jpg (65.6 KB, 11 views)
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