Flathead Top Oiler

[peewee2you]

What are your thoughts or anyone using a top oiler system? if so what are the benefits and truth to this, engine performance, draw backs, better mileage, less wear on parts. Here is a link to item in question.

http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Amp...it-p/st100.htm

[Vic Piano]

I'm running the AMPCO top oilers, with MMO, on both my '39 CS and '39 LZ. It stopped a valve 'tic' in my '39 CS after about a week of use. It won't increase your horsepower, or give you better mileage, (in my experience) however, it does appear to help keep the valves quite. You also need to install the spacer between the intake and carb so, that could help keep the carb cooler, a good thing if your car/truck is prone to the dreaded Vapor Lock. I'm sure you'll get the usual naysayers here, claiming that MMO and the top oilers are 'snake oil' and will do absolutely nothing for your Flathead... My suggestion is to try it... and see for yourself.

[G.M.]

I use MMO in all my old Fords. I have Ampco and MMO oilers on some. BUT your better off putting it in the fuel tank if you DO IT with EVERY refill. Injected it only go's
in the engine. In the gas it can clean the tank, fuel lines, pump and carb before it gets to the engine. G.M.

[Vic Piano]

I agree with George. I forgot to mention that I use MMO in the gas tank as well.

[4ford]

how much do you put in a gallon or tank full??

[Kube]

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Originally Posted by peewee2you

What are your thoughts or anyone using a top oiler system? if so what are the benefits and truth to this, engine performance, draw backs, better mileage, less wear on parts. Here is a link to item in question.

http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Amp...it-p/st100.htm

Funny as heck! This was pre the "Slick 50" poop that way too many guys bought years ago. Later proven to be "snake oil", that company settled for tens of millions...

I can understand introducing MMO in the fuel tank now and then to keep some parts cleaner, however, with today's modern fuels and oils, there is even less benefit to adding this type of products as there was decades ago (think leaded gasoline).

Maintaining clean oil and a clean air filter is the best thing you can do to add longevity to your engine.
One (major) good thing about modern unleaded fuel is its ability to keep your engine clean.

[Boss1940]

Boy , I could not agree with you more KUBES .
I never liked engine additives, nor will I use them.
The best preventative maintenance you can do is to keep your oil clean , and use the proper viscosity .
I just tore apart a motor that was in a work truck , that I know for a fact had the oil changed every 5 k and the inside of that motor including the valve train was like it was pulled from the assembly line.

[Vic Piano]

Amen to that Hoop! Most, if not all, of the naysayers here don't drive their Flatheads, except to put them on and off a trailer... The only way to gain knowledge and experience, as to the validity of any product, is to actually use it in a daily driver. Like I said in my first post on this thread, my suggestion is to try it... and see for yourself.

[1938 Woody Cape Cod]

I put MMO in the gas tank with every fill up...........Bob

[G.M.]

Maybe the naysayers engines don't run smooth enough to know if the valves are slightly sticking or not??? G.M.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Amen to that Hoop! Most, if not all, of the naysayers here don't drive their Flatheads, except to put them on and off a trailer... The only way to gain knowledge and experience, as to the validity of any product, is to actually use it in a daily driver. Like I said in my first post on this thread, my suggestion is to try it... and see for yourself.

Vic, just curious: I must ask how you KNOW the so called "naysayers" don't drive their cars? Further, how do you know what type of experience they have with things like mechanical engineering, automotive design, automotive repair, etc? All things that would allow an informed opinion on the original posters query.
To simply "use a product" proves nothing unless there is an established with which to compare.

[Vic Piano]

Kube, just curious; why do you think I was referring to you? But, if the shoe fits... I've been using MMO in Flatheads for almost 50 years, in original high millage, as well as fresh rebuilds, and I'm happy with the results, even though I'm not a Mechanical Engineer. I reiterate, I suggested that the questioner try it for himself, rather then rely on the opinions of others, including Mechanical Engineers and/or Shadetree Mechanics. So sorry if you were offended...

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Kube, just curious; why do you think I was referring to you? But, if the shoe fits... I've been using MMO in Flatheads for almost 50 years, in original high millage, as well as fresh rebuilds, and I'm happy with the results, even though I'm not a Mechanical Engineer. I reiterate, I suggested that the questioner try it for himself, rather then rely on the opinions of others, including Mechanical Engineers and/or Shadetree Mechanics. So sorry if you were offended...

Yet another assumption. Why do you think I thought that you were referring to me? I was just wondering what you based your opinion upon.
Your answer herein once again proves nothing as you have nothing to make an even comparison to.

[Vic Piano]

Originally Posted by Kube

Yet another assumption. Why do you think I thought that you were referring to me? I was just wondering what you based your opinion upon.
Your answer herein once again proves nothing as you have nothing to make an even comparison to.

Nothing to compare it to??? How about sticking valves that no longer stick after an application of MMO? If that's not a valid comparison, I don't know what is... Point is; MMO works for me, and has for almost 50 years. What is your opinion based on? Have you ever even used MMO?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Nothing to compare it to??? How about sticking valves that no longer stick after an application of MMO? If that's not a valid comparison, I don't know what is... Point is; MMO works for me, and has for almost 50 years. What is your opinion based on? Have you ever even used MMO?

So, the underlying issue was a mechanical problem within your engine. I am happy for you in that the additive solved the issue.
My experience? Many years of formal training, two degrees and a state indentured apprenticeship. Plus, the "real world" experience of having repaired and / or rebuilt quite literally 100's of engines.

I have used a few additives throughout the past decades and a couple - only a couple, have performed as advertised. I have never used an additive as a "regular" treatment, preferring to build my engines correctly and maintaining them in a likewise way.

[Vic Piano]

So, let me get this straight Kube, you are admitting that MMO solved the mechanical issue with my Flathead? In other words, you are agreeing that MMO works as advertised...? Well, I guess that settles it! You are my Hero and, the absolute authority on all things Flathead... And, I guess, the only one who knows how to build and maintain them correctly... Wow, how have all the rest of us, who build, maintain and DRIVE our Flatheads, been able to do it for so long, without possessing all your self professed knowledge and expertise??? It must be a miracle...

[30-9]

I'm not taking any sides here but I have to say this thread is very entertaining. Better than my favorite tv show "finding Big Foot" which btw - watch the next episode I'm told they really see one ----- lol

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Kool!
An old fashioned pissing contest!

If you like it, use it
If not, then don't

What's so hard about that?

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Originally Posted by 30-9

I'm not taking any sides here but I have to say this thread is very entertaining. Better than my favorite tv show "finding Big Foot" which btw - watch the next episode I'm told they really see one ----- lol

Aye, you bet! I heard the caught him on one of them 'ghost cameras' using a diving rod to find some underground water! Can't wait!

[Vic Piano]

Originally Posted by 30-9

I'm not taking any sides here but I have to say this thread is very entertaining. Better than my favorite tv show "finding Big Foot" which btw - watch the next episode I'm told they really see one ----- lol

Yes, and I think they got Big Foot on video tape, putting MMO into the gas tank of a Flathead Ford Truck he uses in the woods... LOL

[30-9]

Rotfl

[tubman]

Hey! Anyone else noticed the respective signatures? Sums it up in a nutshell!

[Vic Piano]

Hey tubman, Kube and I play like this all the time, we don't agree on much when it comes to Flatheads, and we push each others buttons on the subject... Just remember, without imagination, there would be no Flatheads, no MMO and no computers for us to play on etc...

By the way, my signature is a quote from Albert Einstein. I could never find validation that the quote Kube uses was actually stated by Ben Franklin though, I would highly doubt it, as he was a very imaginative individual.

[FRANK PKNY]

I use mmo in my fuel every fill up. The stuff works, been using it for 50 years. How well I never have any valve issues or carb problems, even with the crap gass. Works for me I use about one oz per gallon. That's the story and I'm sticking to it. LOL

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Hey tubman, Kube and I play like this all the time, we don't agree on much when it comes to Flatheads, and we push each others buttons on the subject... Just remember, without imagination, there would be no Flatheads, no MMO and no computers for us to play on etc...

By the way, my signature is a quote from Albert Einstein. I could never find validation that the quote Kube uses was actually stated by Ben Franklin though, I would highly doubt it, as he was a very imaginative individual.

Kinda' figured it was all in fun. You have to admit, it's amusing juxtaposing the signatures, especially to "outsiders".

I'll compromise and put some MMO in my gas every other fill-up!

[Vic Piano]

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Originally Posted by tubman

Kinda' figured it was all in fun. You have to admit, it's amusing juxtaposing the signatures, especially to "ousiders".

Yup, Kube put his up after I posted mine, I'm sure it was a 'dig', I get a kick out of it. LOL

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by Scott H in Wheaton

Aye, you bet! I heard the caught him on one of them 'ghost cameras' using a diving rod to find some underground water! Can't wait!

I have seen a guy use diving rods, and he let me use them and they worked!

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Originally Posted by Brendan

I have seen a guy use diving rods, and he let me use them and they worked!

Of course they work, its like saying if you dig you'll find dirt.
You'll almost always eventually find water if you dig deep enough. Its all anecdotal evidence. Had a long thread going about dowsing / divining rods over on Garage Journal. Same outcome as the aliens, BIGFOOT, MMO, and the myth of the female orgasm. Those who have seen, believe. Those who have not seen never will. In the preceeding list I'm no, no, yes, and yes.

[bobH]

I believe Kube has described his hacks as 'trailer queens' (or something similar). Seems to me, THAT duty would be a prime candidate for mmo. Although I've also come to believe that trailer queens don't really have to run well, steer, brake, or have good rear ends, transmissions, or clutches. This observation comes from my own purchase of a 'restored' car that did quite well in efv8 national meet judging, was documented in the V8 Times, and proved to be terrible as a 'driver'.
As a side note, I have a long-time friend, who has had his flatheads for about 70 years - five of them. One is his prime driver, and last I knew, has over 900,000 miles on it. (40 Merc, 3/8 -3/8, 59, rump-rump, etc) He's a meticulous engineer, and documents in log books, everything. He has a habit of freshening his engines every 100K, or so. He measures wear and records it for all surfaces that wear. He learned back in the 60's that use of mmo significantly reduced cylinder wear. He has top-end oilers on his cars. He also uses water filters with the sacrificial plate in them. And, also, Franz oil filters. I once saw inside one of his engines after a 100K cycle - immaculate. He's the only one I know who has flathead wear records for pre-mmo, and post-mmo.

[Bassman/NZ]

I wish we could get that stuff here.

[A bones]

Kinda late to weigh in here. (But I've been away in the hospital since 'the holidays'.) Here's the news. I've run many vehicles new and old. The ones that I found old (high mileage over 1K) had problems. In the old days it could be stuck rings(remember them?) and/or valves. The motors would sweeten up, and live to run many more pleasant higher miles. By the way, if it were stuck rings....the Marvel went in the crankcase. Yes! the prescription also included fresh clean filters. (Why would that need to mentioned here on this site?)

As time marched on some of the (newer '70's) older motors were victim of detonation and post ignition run on. Marvel in the gas for at least a few hundred miles and the response and sound of the engine made proud me of my bargain ride.

In the early '60's, before I owned a car, I overheard a smooth talking new car salesman tell a newbie when when he got hold of a demo car to get a Qt of Marvel pour half in the tank, half in the crank, and drive the piss out of it for break in. Never tried it myself. When I was able to afford new, I would pour as recommended and drive nice for break in. Afterward one oz. per gal. of gas...forever. Until I can no longer twist that ignition key. I'll be holding my Marvel high trying to sight the number of ounces left in the bottle.

For the record, I have six tanks to fill. (plus two cans for the riding mower) Long live high mileage motors. By the way, ever talked to the guys who cherish un-restored antique motor cycles? BTW Lets be clear, Slick 50 is a totally different approach to a totally different symptom. Marvel helps oil do its job by cleaning. Slick claims better mileage by coating.

One more thing to throw in here: can't recall where I saw it, someone mentioned that flat valve motors don't bathe the valves stems in oil as OHVs do. Thanks for reading my ramblings.

[Vic Piano]

Ok, it would appear, based on the number of responses in this thread, that the majority are pro-MMO. Further, their findings are based on actual usage over time, in various Flatheads. In the final analysis, it's up to each individual to decide weather or not MMO works, in their applications. As for me, I have, and will continue to use MMO in my Flatheads because of the positive results I've seen over many years of driving Flatheads.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by bobH

I believe Kube has described his hacks as 'trailer queens' (or something similar). Seems to me, THAT duty would be a prime candidate for mmo. Although I've also come to believe that trailer queens don't really have to run well, steer, brake, or have good rear ends, transmissions, or clutches. This observation comes from my own purchase of a 'restored' car that did quite well in efv8 national meet judging, was documented in the V8 Times, and proved to be terrible as a 'driver'.
As a side note, I have a long-time friend, who has had his flatheads for about 70 years - five of them. One is his prime driver, and last I knew, has over 900,000 miles on it. (40 Merc, 3/8 -3/8, 59, rump-rump, etc) He's a meticulous engineer, and documents in log books, everything. He has a habit of freshening his engines every 100K, or so. He measures wear and records it for all surfaces that wear. He learned back in the 60's that use of mmo significantly reduced cylinder wear. He has top-end oilers on his cars. He also uses water filters with the sacrificial plate in them. And, also, Franz oil filters. I once saw inside one of his engines after a 100K cycle - immaculate. He's the only one I know who has flathead wear records for pre-mmo, and post-mmo.

My "hacks"? Exactly what do you mean by "hack"?

I feel for you in the fact that you did not inspect the so called "show car" that you had purchased. Because you chose not to inspect the vehicle should not and does not mean all "show cars" are equally as poorly built as yours turned out to be.

[V8COOPMAN]

[QUOTE=bobH;1056686]I believe Kube has described his hacks as 'trailer queens' (or something similar). Seems to me, THAT duty would be a prime candidate for mmo. Although I've also come to believe that trailer queens don't really have to run well, steer, brake, or have good rear ends, transmissions, or clutches. This observation comes from my own purchase of a 'restored' car that did quite well in efv8 national meet judging, was documented in the V8 Times, and proved to be terrible as a 'driver'.
QUOTE]

I just wish I could justify what it would take to own one of those Kube "trailer queen hack jobs". Hell, I've heard that ya gotta stand in line for several years just to get the chance at one. DD

[Vic Piano]

I have seen photos of some of Kube's restorations, and I will say that they are beautiful. And, I'm sure that he restored them to a much higher standard than Ford achieved on the assembly line. I can not attest to the drivability of any of them because I've never had the opportunity to drive one. I don't recall anyone ever posting anything, good, bad or indifferent (here on the FordBarn) about a Kube restored car that they bought, except for one example. If my memory serves me correctly, there was a guy (a well known automobile collector, whose name I can't recall at the moment) that bought a '40 Convertible that Kube had restored. As the story went (again, as I recall), the guy wanted to drive the car in the Great American Race so, he had the Flathead removed and replaced with another one that may have been 'heated up' a bit. I don't recall a particular reason given for the swap. I give Kube a lot of credit, he's passionate, almost to a fault, about his restorations but, I think it would be nice to hear some feedback, testimonials or otherwise, from someone other than Kube himself. Are their any 'Kube restored' car owners out there?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

I have seen photos of some of Kube's restorations, and I will say that they are beautiful. And, I'm sure that he restored them to a much higher standard than Ford achieved on the assembly line. I can not attest to the drivability of any of them because I've never had the opportunity to drive one. I don't recall anyone ever posting anything, good, bad or indifferent (here on the FordBarn) about a Kube restored car that they bought, except for one example. If my memory serves me correctly, there was a guy (a well known automobile collector, whose name I can't recall at the moment) that bought a '40 Convertible that Kube had restored. As the story went (again, as I recall), the guy wanted to drive the car in the Great American Race so, he had the Flathead removed and replaced with another one that may have been 'heated up' a bit. I don't recall a particular reason given for the swap. I give Kube a lot of credit, he's passionate, almost to a fault, about his restorations but, I think it would be nice to hear some feedback, testimonials or otherwise, from someone other than Kube himself. Are their any 'Kube restored' car owners out there?

Vic, I doubt my clients have the time nor the interest to bother with the Barn, etc to offer you a testimony. Most are too busy running corporations and the like.
You need a testimony? I have never advertised my services and yet am booked solid through at least 2019.
Need an even better testimony? Get on my schedule for a restoration starting in 2019 - 2020. Then, for once, you'll not only have a beautifully restored vehicle, but one that didn't have to be placed on a trailer.

Rest assured, my projects perform every bit as well as they appear.

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Originally Posted by Kube

My "hacks"? Exactly what do you mean by "hack"?

Maybe he was using the term in reference to a Depot Hack, or Hackney, terms for old carriages.
Or its also possibly he is speaking of something he has no personal knowledge of.

[Vic Piano]

Originally Posted by Kube

Vic, I doubt my clients have the time nor the interest to bother with the Barn, etc to offer you a testimony. Most are too busy running corporations and the like.
You need a testimony? I have never advertised my services and yet am booked solid through at least 2019.
Need an even better testimony? Get on my schedule for a restoration starting in 2019 - 2020. Then, for once, you'll not only have a beautifully restored vehicle, but one that didn't have to be placed on a trailer.

Rest assured, my projects perform every bit as well as they appear.

Kube, that's funny, I own and run two media corporations, yet I still have time to visit hobby sites like the FordBarn, maybe I'm better at multitasking... LOL While I appreciate your offer, I'm not interested in what I consider over restored cars. Yes, occasionally I require the use of a trailer for my vehicles, if and when something goes awry... In the case of the '51 F-1, the bolt that holds the fan and generator assemblies to the intake manifold, snapped off when we attempted to snug it up... Something no one, not even you, could have anticipated. The good thing was, it happened at the exit for Garlits Museum, and Don and his crew were nice enough to let me leave the truck there for the weekend. By the way, what exactly was the deal with the guy who pulled the Flathead out of the '40 you restored?

Oh, I almost forgot to ask, if your clients are so high on the hog, what are you doing wallowing in the squalor with the likes of us FordBarner's? I'm sure we'd all like to know.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by Scott H in Wheaton

Maybe he was using the term in reference to a Depot Hack, or Hackney, terms for old carriages.
Or its also possibly he is speaking of something he has no personal knowledge of.

I'm sure you're kidding, pulling my chain. That's funny.

Edit, because I got an anonymous pm... My use of the term 'hack', because I grew up in a family that lovingly used the term in reference to the family 'hacks' that served us well, and took us on many happy and memorable adventures. Apology to those who have another interpretation. Scott has the appropriate definition, with which I have taken some 'liberty'.
My earliest memory of the term hack... early 1940's, applied to our 37 Plymouth, and a 41 Olds, both of which took us to many wonderful places. I referenced both these vehicles in another recent thread, which had to do with titles.

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Originally Posted by bobH

I'm sure you're kidding, pulling my chain. That's funny.

I think this whole damn thread is funny! A bunch of old farts pissing in the wind thinking they can change someone's mind over the iNtERweBz about an engine additive LOL

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Kube, that's funny, I own and run two media corporations, yet I still have time to visit hobby sites like the FordBarn, maybe I'm better at multitasking... LOL While I appreciate your offer, I'm not interested in what I consider over restored cars. Yes, occasionally I require the use of a trailer for my vehicles, if and when something goes awry... In the case of the '51 F-1, the bolt that holds the fan and generator assemblies to the intake manifold, snapped off when we attempted to snug it up... Something no one, not even you, could have anticipated. The good thing was, it happened at the exit for Garlits Museum, and Don and his crew were nice enough to let me leave the truck there for the weekend. By the way, what exactly was the deal with the guy who pulled the Flathead out of the '40 you restored?

Oh, I almost forgot to ask, if your clients are so high on the hog, what are you doing wallowing in the squalor with the likes of us FordBarner's? I'm sure we'd all like to know.

The "deal" was the guy (Dingham Collection that pulled the engine subsequently had a very highly modified flathead (Rousch sp?) built so he could run the Great American Race with that car. To me, it was kind of a shame that he used a car restored to that level to run a cross country race. But hey, once he paid for it, it was his to do with as he pleased. That car by the way, I had built for myself. His offer to purchase was something I could not refuse at the time. Even now, about 8? years later, I doubt a '40 Ford convertible would fetch that kind of sales price. I think there remains a link to it on the Internet should you so desire.

My clients are not "high on the hog" but rather quite nice and down to earth folks. I have been blessed to deal with such wonderful folks. Not a narcissistic one in the bunch.
I was attempting to make you understand they are most likely too busy to bother with this type of venue.
Me? This is my "dirty indulgence". The humor I derive from folks like yourself, so full of "imagination" puts a smile upon my face.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Kube

Even now, about 8? years later, I doubt a '40 Ford convertible would fetch that kind of sales price. I think there remains a link to it on the Internet should you so desire.

The auction buyer bid $165K in 2012.......cup holder included. DD

[Vic Piano]

Kube, its so nice of you to bless us all with your ever increasing levels pomposity and arrogance, during your moments of "dirty indulgence". You let the cat out of the bag with your constant chest pounding self-aggrandizement. So, its clear you look down on all of us plebeians, here on the FordBarn, and only visit, hoping to garner a few brief moments of jocularity. If you pat yourself on your back any harder, you're likely to dislocate your shoulder. And, if and when you do, perhaps you should try rubbing some MMO on it... After all, its got to be good for something. Oh, by the way, you really elevated yourself in the art of verbal jousting, with your closing comment; And, I would not waste a bucket of my pi-- on what's his name if he were on fire. A very adult response indeed... Imagine that. I think my work is done here. Have a nice day.

[51504bat]

'bout time to close this thread and get back to early Ford topics. IMO

[green50]

Amen to that!

[johnh7]

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I concur, but then we did read it all. LOL

[Straightpipes]

The Boss doesn't monitor this site as close as the HAMB probably because old farts don't usually get feisty...........I think the last closed thread was when everybody was beating up on a poor defenseless old guy who rebuilds carbs

[johnny]

I am a Lucas oil user. 46 woodie ,39 mercury convt. [on the front cover current issue V8 times] We were on the way to the upper Michigan V8 tour last Sept. with the woodie Left home after lunch ,stayed in Gaylord for the night ,next morning filled with gas,did'nt take the time to add any oil. Pulled out onto 75 northbound stopped on the side of the interstate to adjust luggage rattle .started to take off, old woodie gave too poops and quit. Did some testing ,found to have spark .loosened of gas line to carb ,line full of gas ,used the wrench to tap the carb bowl tried it ,started right off carb needle valve had stuck closed Had I added the oil would it have stuck. never did it before or again after I had added oil before re starting .