Need help with brakes

[spinelll]

I‘ve been pulling (what’s left of) my hair out trying to adjust my brakes. I’ve found the source of one of the issues but I don’t know how to address it.
This video is only about 2 minutes long. Give it look. I appreciate any suggestions. Note that the video shows the front brakes but I have the same symptoms in the rear.

http://youtu.be/BsHkjtuNT2w

Thanks
Leo

[msmaron]

Have you fully fully greased everything, that seems to be an issue, have you changed the brake wedges and are they fully fully greased inside the cup???

[Steve Wastler]

My guess would be the springs are repop or they are stretched, or a combo of both.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

My guess would be the springs are repop or they are stretched, or a combo of both.

I would agree and hope you changed the springs if your changing the brakes and the REPOPS will have to be clipped a bit to attach.. and GREASE it with Red Grease!! LOTS of it inside that cap

[spinelll]

Inside the cup is greased. You can see a bit spilling out in the video.
I took out the adjusting wedges last year and cleaned them up. They looked fine.
Also, the adjusting shafts were nice and smooth.
Where else can I grease?

[spinelll]

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What is REPOP?
If it were the springs wouldn't it affect either/both sides. It's only one side that binds.

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by spinelll

What is REPOP?
If it were the springs wouldn't it affect either/both sides. It's only one side that binds.

Repop = reproduction

Not necessarily, the shoes seem a little loose fitting to me, likely lack of spring pressure.

[Steve Wastler]

Sorry to hijack the thread,

Mark,
Have you shared pics of the sport coupe?

[Steve Wastler]

Are the lengths of the thrust pins (part you marked) the same length, they should be, but I don't think that would cause your issue, as they both seem to move out the same. I still think its lack of spring pressure, do you have another spring lying around you could try?

[spinelll]

1930 Coupe

That's just it, they don't go back that readily. They don't return when the pedal is pressed. I've previously tried what you suggested, even tapping the backing plate with a rubber mallet without luck.
The annoying part is this:
1. Let's say, for example, I adjust 3 clicks and get a heavy drag.
2. I back out 1 click, still heavy drag.
3. Repeat step 2 a number of times and I still have a heavy drag.

Makes it difficult and brutally time consuming to adjust.

[Steve Wastler]

Correct spring pressure is critical for correct shoe alignment, as are all portions of a mechanical system. Weak springs at any point can and will allow the shoes to contact at an angle. New springs don't mean they are correct, they could be NORRS (new old ricks reproduction springs). You are already experiencing an issue in just adjusting them, why wouldn't you experience issues in function while driving. If a buddy doesn't have a known good set order some from Bert's A&L or Brattons.

[QGolden]

Are the thrust pins in the proper orientation? The mounting hole is offset a a bit.

[Tom Endy]

There are reproduction springs on the market that are incorrect. The two short springs should have the hook ends at 90 degrees to each other. The incorrect ones have the hooks facing the same direction. Totally wrong, they will give you fits. Bratton's carry the correct ones. I could not tell by your video if you have the correct springs or if they are installed correctly.

The correct short springs will have a short hooked end and a long hooked end. The short hooked ends go over the pins by the roller track. At the opposite end one hook goes over the other goes under.

The arms attached to the shoes that go into the adjuster well need to move back and forth smoothly. You may have one that is bent or the inside of the tunnel has become gouged during removal. A given pair of arms should be the same length. Take them out and check for damage and equal length. Check the tunnels for damage. You can grind them to the same length and re-shape the knife end if they are wallowed over. You should also grease the arms and the well where the adjuster resides. I use white lithium grease on all mechanical brake parts inside the drums.

Tom Endy

[spinelll]

Thanks for all of the input.
Just for ha-ha's, I repeated the video procedure and hit the brakes a few time. The shoe didn't retract.

[spinelll]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

... I could not tell by your video if you have the correct springs or if they are installed correctly...

Tom Endy

Here are a few shots of the spring installation.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

it looks as if the right lower spring has been over stretched. See the uneven gap in the coils? If , when off the anchors, it still has that gap, it is indeed over stretched and no longer serviceable. It will not retract the shoe with force equivalent to the opposite spring. It also indicates poor quality steel. If that is the case and the upper springs are from the same source, I would suspect the upper springs are poor quality as well.

[Tom Endy]

In the right hand photo the small spring on the left is shown with the hook attached to the pin on the roller track coming in from the bottom. It should come in from the top. Remove the spring and install the opposite end in the shoe from behind. This will orient the hook so it comes in over the top of the pin.


Check that the wedge moves up and down freely. When the large nut on the wedge assembly is torqued down the wedge should move up and down freely. Part of the assembly fits into a slot and if it is burred or full of crud the assembly will bind. I have found a number of cases where the nut was left loose to allow it to slide.

The push rods should be of sufficient length such that when you pull the slack out of the arm the brake rod attaches to the positioning of the arm is leaning forward by about 15 degrees. If not the cure is to replace the rods with ones of proper length, weld the ends up to increase the length, or install "pills" in the cup at the top of the wedge.

Tom Endy

[Pilotdave]

Tom, I'm curious about the correction you suggest....ie, why would reversing that spring make a difference in the performance or adjusting of the brake assembly? Thanks much.
Dave

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Pilotdave

Tom, I'm curious about the correction you suggest....ie, why would reversing that spring make a difference in the performance or adjusting of the brake assembly? Thanks much.
Dave

Look closely at the right photo. The body of the small spring on the left is much closer to the roller than is the small right spring. The wedge is partially down. When it retracts the rollers will move up closer to the spring. It is conceivable that they could constrict in some circumstances. By flipping the left spring over it moves it away from the roller. I don't know if the orientation has any affect on the spring tension. I was taught years ago to orient the springs so both come over the top of the pins. The situation is the same for the rear wheels though the actuation is different.

Tom Endy

[MartyAndrew]

Mr. 1930 Coupe on Oct 31 is on the right track. You have a bind occurring between the pin and the bore it rides in. You have to find the source of it.
Take off the springs, then hold the right shoe in place at the lower pivot point on the roller track, up against the lower wedge, and move the pin in and out of the bore. While doing this, try pulling the shoe away from the back plate a little. Then do the same while holding it toward the backplate. The try sliding it up a little, then down on the roller track. If any of these causes the pin to bind upon return, you've narrowed down where to look for the bind.
I noticed that you pushed toward the backplate to get the shoe to return, which it did readily (springs are fine). I also noticed that when you pushed on the shoe the force of the top spring pulling together tends to "twist" the shoe away from the back plate. This twisting motion could be creating the bind. Notice the sort of sharp edge on the top right of the pin in the attached pic. In the installed position this edge is 'toward' the backplate and could be catching in a very small "indentation", pit, or wear mark in the bore. Emery cloth on a drill will not remove such an indentation. One way to check this theory also, is adjust the shoes all the way out. Does the right shoe come back to the same place and stick there every time? If so, more evidence of a pit in the bore. I noticed that when you loosen the adjuster the right pin vibrates and moves in about 0.5mm then it stops moving in and the vibration of the adjuster gets less as it moves away from the pin. But it DOES retract a little bit at first.
I liked 1930 Coupe's suggestion of cleaning everything out completely, then put paint or sharpie on the pin, run your bind procedure, then carefully remove the springs then the shoes, remove the pin and see where the paint is worn off the pin. This will quickly 'pinpoint' the location of the bind.
Good luck. I am subscribing to your post. I actually work at the modern Ford Motor Co. in brake engineering, and I always love a good brake puzzle!! Can't wait to hear what the solution is.

PS - The lower wedge doesn't look right. It is rotated counterclockwise. The actuation pin contacts it at an angle. Why is this? Is your roller track on crooked? (I see it's new.) Or is it too high or too low such that it could be pushing the right shoe too high or low, causing the pin to bind? It may not directly cause the bind up top, but everything should be "right", on principle.

Marty