Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-28-2015, 09:55 AM   #1
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

I have made an agreement to buy a 51 Merc engine and will install it in my 40 Ford Tudor with a 39 toploader. I would appreciate input from any one familiar with this swap. I have researched and have came up with the following:
1 I will need the truck series 8rt water pumps

2 I will need a rear sump truck oil pan. I need clarification on this one because I regard all of the oil pans as rear sump.

3 The seller claims to have fabbed a wide belt crank pulley that will accept a 40 crank mounted fan. Is this a good idea. What are other options?

4 How about radiator hoses? Are the 8ba head hose recipicals the same size as the radiator's?

5. I have been told that if I get a 48-52 truck flywheel it will not have to be drilled to accept a 48-52 clutch and pressure plate. Can someone clarify for me the need to drill an 8ba passenger car flywheel to accept the truck clutch and why only a truck clutch and pressure plate will adapt to a early transmission?

6. I have noticed from Van Pelt drawings, that the 51 Merc bell housing set up is a little differnce from the rest. Will there be any problem there?

7. Will there be an issue with starter clearance?

8 Can I use stock ford exhaust manifolds?

Any help will be appreciated!
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 10:10 AM   #2
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,298
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

On the clutch, not sure of the intended use of your 40, but the truck clutch and pressure plate is not the best combination to use. The larger (and heavier) the clutch assembly the slower the acceleration, no advantage unless you are carrying heavy loads or towing. For me a 9 inch clutch would be the best and a 10 inch as the maximum. Getting a flywheel redrilled is not too big an issue and the clutch plate only has to match the splines on the transmission.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 04-28-2015, 10:49 AM   #3
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Thanks! That is something to consider. I would need to find and experienced shop to do the drilling because I have been warned that although it "is not to big an issue" not every knows how to do it and it is drilled improperly often. Do you think a passenger car clutch from an 8ba will match the splines on an early (39) transmission?
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 12:21 PM   #4
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,298
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

See if any of this is of interest:

http://www.flatheadv8.org/rumblest/clutch.pdf

Fort Wayne is the place to talk to about clutches:

http://www.fortwayneclutch.com/index...-kt5102-r.html
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 12:27 PM   #5
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Oh yeah! Thanks! Both of those are of great interest to me.
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 12:41 PM   #6
V8 Bob
Senior Member
 
V8 Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Granger (Northern) Indiana
Posts: 1,327
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
[QUOTE=dixiedelux;1076912]I have made an agreement to buy a 51 Merc engine and will install it in my 40 Ford Tudor with a 39 toploader. I would appreciate input from any one familiar with this swap. I have researched and have came up with the following:
1 I will need the truck series 8rt water pumps

You want to use the '48-'52 truck pumps, not '53.
You'll also need a '48-'53 truck/'49 Ford/Merc wide belt crank and generator pulley.

2 I will need a rear sump truck oil pan. I need clarification on this one because I regard all of the oil pans as rear sump.

The '48-'52 truck pans have rear sumps with large clean-out plates. The '53 truck pan is a stepped rear sump. The other rear sump pan is the '49-'51 Mercury. The '49-'51 Fords and '52-'53 Fords/Mercurys have center sump pans.

3 The seller claims to have fabbed a wide belt crank pulley that will accept a 40 crank mounted fan. Is this a good idea. What are other options?

I think cooling will be better with a higher mounted fan, just not sure about fit/clearance issues. I would try to use a late truck/'49 Ford/Merc wide belt fan.

4 How about radiator hoses? Are the 8ba head hose recipicals the same size as the radiator's?

The 8BA hoses are 1 1/4" while the earlier hoses are larger (I think 1 1/2" ?)

5. I have been told that if I get a 48-52 truck flywheel it will not have to be drilled to accept a 48-52 clutch and pressure plate. Can someone clarify for me the need to drill an 8ba passenger car flywheel to accept the truck clutch and why only a truck clutch and pressure plate will adapt to a early transmission?

You can use any Late Ford/Merc car or truck flywheel. Fords used several Long style sizes (9 1/2"/10"/11") while Mercurys used 10" Borg & Becks that use the same bolt pattern as some modern diaphragm (my choice) clutch plates. The disc has to have an 1 3/8" X 10 spline to match your '39 tranny. Any good clutch re builder can put together a clutch setup.

6. I have noticed from Van Pelt drawings, that the 51 Merc bell housing set up is a little differnce from the rest. Will there be any problem there?

You'll need a '49-'50 Mercury stamped/'48-'52 truck cast 1/2 bell to mate the late flathead to your 39 transmission. The regular production '51 Mercury bell housing is full size designed to be used with the late 4 bolt B/W transmissions that came out in '49 Fords/'51 Mercurys.

7. Will there be an issue with starter clearance?

No problem.

8 Can I use stock ford exhaust manifolds?

Yes, but steel aftermarket headers might be a better option.

QUOTE]
V8 Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 01:02 PM   #7
JSeery
Senior Member
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 15,298
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

There is a lot of information in this thread:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53933
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=53933&page=2
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 01:16 PM   #8
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

A big thanks for the pertinent and specific information, Bob. That sketchy, gray area about the clearance problems if not using a 40 fan scares me. The builder uses a 40 crank mount fan on his and has no immmediate problems but he says he wishes it ran a little cooler. He is convinced a set of Haney rebuilt pumps will do the job. Was improper cooling inherent in 40 Fords?
He told me today the engine has a Mercury stamped Bell.
I asked about stock ford exhaust manifolds because of being assured I wont have to do exhaust work immediately. I have all new exhaust on my 40. Headers, for sure, will be on the want-to list!
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 01:19 PM   #9
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Thanks again Teacher! You are certainly giving me plenty of reading homework.
Richard
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 01:34 PM   #10
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 7,274
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

dixiedlx.......One of the problems you may run into on a '40 with a HIGHER-mounted fan is the fan blades trying to share the same real estate with the upper radiator hoses. '40's don't run particularly warmer than other years, as long as your block's water jackets and radiator are squeeky clean, and make sure ALL of the air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces are in place. Factory-designed and implemented for a good reason. DD
__________________
T5 W/TORQUE TUBE

One thing you learn from history....is that nobody learns from history!
V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 01:35 PM   #11
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 12,044
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

A lot of the early run of 51 Mercury cars still used the half bell housing that will work for the early transmission. The later 51 Mercs had a one year only casting with an early type clutch equalizer. They are better suited for a transmission with 4-bolt narrow Borg Warner pattern. The 10-inch long type clutch was used on some 48 to early 51 F1 pickups but they are rare now days. The 49 thru early 51 Merc Borg & Beck clutches are an alternative but there are no reproduction clutch or pressure plates available. I get mine rebuilt by Ft Wayne clutch. It may be easier to get the Merc flywheel trilled for a 9 or 10-inch Long type clutch since they are easier to get parts for.

The 49 thru 51 Merc oil pan is not as deep as the truck pan so it is just a bit better for steering linkage clearance.

You would have to install the motor and check the clearance of any "fabricated" fan mounting on the crank pulley. It might work OK. You certainly wouldn't have to worry about adjusting the fan belt that way. The 49 Merc and early F1 models used the fan that dates back to 1942 (the oil filled hub type) but they are wide belt. They just have there own belt to run them.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 02:27 PM   #12
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 8,292
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Flathead Jack has thermostat housings for the 8BA that will match the stock 40 radiator outlets. Pricey but pretty and eliminates the need for hose reducers. You could also make and braze some collars onto the stock 49-53 cast iron thermostat housings to increase their OD. http://flatheadjack.com/78.html
When I installed a 50 Merc into my 40 I used:
49-51 Merc rear sump oil pan. Provides more clearance for drag link if you severely "rake" your car.
40 column shift trans. I think the 39 trans. will work also.
49-51 Merc flywheel, pressure plate and clutch. Clutch is 10 in.
40 throw out bearing
8RT wide belt water pumps
Wide belt generator pulley
Stock 40 exhaust manifiolds
49-51 Ford pickup 2 sheave pressed steel wide belt crank pulley
Stock 1940 Ford engine mount biscuits
49-51 Merc pressed steel bellhousing. I think early Ford pick up truck cast bellhousing will also work, even if you use a 10 inch clutch and pressure plate.
I welded "ears" onto the Merc pressed steel bellhousing to accept modified anti-chatter rods. Make sure they clear the clutch and brake pedal when depressed. or, you can make an after-market anti-chatter device that bolts to the Merc belhousing. See photo.
To have the pickup wide belt pulley clear the front cross member I removed the stock "Y" fender support bracket and made new angle iron support brackets that bolt to stock holes in the frame. See photo. Also moved the radiator forward and made new radiator support brackets to attach to the sides of the Walker radiator. (PS: If you decide to use a new radiator, Walker will make you a radiator with smaller top inlets to match your thermostat housings.) Also, disregard notes on crank pulley photo. By far, the most troublesome part of this engine install is respositioning the fan so that it will "clear" the top radiator hoses and still provide adequate cooling. A search may reveal alternative ideas. I ended up making a new fan carrier bracket and fan pulley. You need a lathe to do this. It's a lot of work. Consider an electric fan. I did this install in 1970 and it's still in the car. Hope I didn't forget anything you may need to know.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Copy of DSC02097 (Small).JPG (60.8 KB, 145 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4754bb.jpg (39.0 KB, 132 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3903 (Small)best.jpg (52.6 KB, 132 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3904 (Small)best.jpg (59.1 KB, 127 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3902 (Small)best.jpg (51.2 KB, 128 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4339b.jpg (82.7 KB, 129 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_5840 (Small)best.jpg (54.3 KB, 117 views)

Last edited by 19Fordy; 04-28-2015 at 03:12 PM.
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 03:05 PM   #13
Charlie ny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,530
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

dix,
The crank mounted fan does sit low but in my application.......'41 1/2 t with
'49 Merc...the hoses clear real nice. At Flatjacks reccomendation I purchased a fan
shroud from Walkers and that made a significant improvement in the original
radiators effectiveness. The shroud was for a '40 Ford and is high impact black
plastic, once installed it looks like steel....fit like a glove.
Charlie ny
Charlie ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 03:23 PM   #14
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 8,292
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Charlie, I also installed a Walker plastic shroud. However, I cut it horizontally in half so that you can easily install and remove it when needed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4758b.jpg (105.4 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4757bb.jpg (64.5 KB, 97 views)
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 05:49 PM   #15
Charlie ny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,530
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

19,
I did stay with a crank mounted fan and installed my shroud rotated 180
degrees from your install. To do this it required a bit of extensive rework to the
fan mount crank pulley. Being simple minded my set up uses a single 'B' belt.
Charlie ny
Charlie ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 06:50 PM   #16
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Coopman, Rotorwrench, 19fordy and Charlie, thanks for all of the wonderful, informative input. The pictures are real helpful Fordy. The response has been great from Ford Barners! Richard
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 08:17 PM   #17
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 8,292
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Charlie ny, If possible please do post photos of your modified your fan mount crank pulley. It would surely be a BIG help to others as this is one area for which a simple solution is not readily available..
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 08:33 PM   #18
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
Charlie ny, If possible please do post photos of your modified your fan mount crank pulley. It would surely be a BIG help to others as this is one area for which a simple solution is not readily available..
Pleaseeeee.......Charlie!
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 10:08 AM   #19
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 8,292
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

OK Charlie. the pressure is ON. Post those photos..............pretty please with a strawberry on top.

Last edited by 19Fordy; 04-29-2015 at 11:12 AM.
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 12:50 PM   #20
dixiedelux
Member
 
dixiedelux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia, KY
Posts: 89
Default Re: 51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
dixiedlx.......One of the problems you may run into on a '40 with a HIGHER-mounted fan is the fan blades trying to share the same real estate with the upper radiator hoses. '40's don't run particularly warmer than other years, as long as your block's water jackets and radiator are squeeky clean, and make sure ALL of the air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces are in place. Factory-designed and implemented for a good reason. DD
Coopman, Can you give an example of air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces? Is the slashpan an example?
dixiedelux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:19 AM.