The Ford Barn

LEM · 02-21-2024, 01:32 PM

I’m calling it a retainer only because I do not know what it would be called but my question is why is it lined with solder?

ursus · 02-21-2024, 02:02 PM

I have thought that the seal outer surface beds into the rough surface which prevents the seal from being spun in the retainer, especially on initial start-up when there is a lot radial torque applied to the seal by the crankshaft. Ford did most everything for a reason.

Flathead · 02-21-2024, 03:13 PM

I imagine that piece is soldered to the pan.

nkaminar · 02-21-2024, 03:15 PM

Ford did a lot of fixing of parts that were initially rejected. You see a lot of brazing on a Model T crankcase. Although I would have expected brazing instead of soldering.

rotorwrench · 02-21-2024, 06:13 PM

I think the solder was to smooth out the transition between the two pieces of the retainer and keep oil from getting in under the seal so it won't try to rotate.

duke36 · 02-22-2024, 11:37 AM

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Side note; some oil pans have been seen with a hole in the bottom of the rope seal trough.

LEM · 02-22-2024, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke36

Side note; some oil pans have been seen with a hole in the bottom of the rope seal trough.

Yes, mine does have the whole at the bottom of the trough. I tried to repair the solder because a chunk of it was missing, but ended up heating it up too much so I scraped it all out. Should I replace the solder or not?

rotorwrench · 02-22-2024, 06:25 PM

It looks like Ford used Body Solder to fill that area. It will have to be well cleaned and tinned to get the stuff to stick. Ford likely had tools to shape it and insure it was sized properly. It might be easier to find another pan but the job is doable.

nkaminar · 02-22-2024, 08:51 PM

Different solders have different ratios of the components, normally lead and tin. The ratios determine if the solder melts all together or has a slushy stage where it can be worked like putty. I don't know the ratios for body solder, called body lead, but it has a slushy stage during heating. The body lead was worked with a wood paddle. The steel was tinned with a steel wool that was saturated with a tin compound. I don't know the chemistry of the compound but it put a bright tin on the steel so that the body lead could stick. The solder used for joining wires has a ratio of components so that it all melts at a certain temperature and does not have a slushy stage. It is called eutectic solder. It is not a good choice for filling in voids such as on the oil pan in question.

I hope there is an old body man (or woman) out there who can add some information to this.

rotorwrench · 02-23-2024, 02:23 PM

The best tinning solution or powder was Dutch Boy but they banned the use of mercury additives due to almost certain exposure problems if no gloves were used. The EPA did away with all that stuff. The modern tinning materials can work but a person has to experiment with them for a while.

The solder is generally 30 tin and 70 lead or Sn30/Pb70. There were others with more or less tin. Fortunately, it is still available. The tinning butter is funky stuff. I miss the old Dutch Boy products.

It might be better to use something modern that you can work with. PC7 epoxy or one of the other putty type epoxies might be easier to get in there and smooth out. A person would need a disk that would help form the radius. Something like that would be a lot easier than going back to the dark ages with lead/tin solder.

nkaminar · 02-24-2024, 07:27 AM

Rotorwrench has good point. Besides the question of why there is solder there, if someone is fixing a gap in a pan or other part, JB Weld or similar product would be a good choice. All oil and foreign material has to be removed with a final clean with acetone. A rough surface is best.

As far as I know, no one uses body lead anymore. Bondo is the material of choice now.

02-21-2024, 02:02 PM	#2
ursus Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,375	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer I have thought that the seal outer surface beds into the rough surface which prevents the seal from being spun in the retainer, especially on initial start-up when there is a lot radial torque applied to the seal by the crankshaft. Ford did most everything for a reason.

02-21-2024, 03:13 PM	#3
Flathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 1,499	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer I imagine that piece is soldered to the pan.

02-21-2024, 03:15 PM	#4
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer Ford did a lot of fixing of parts that were initially rejected. You see a lot of brazing on a Model T crankcase. Although I would have expected brazing instead of soldering. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

02-21-2024, 06:13 PM	#5
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer I think the solder was to smooth out the transition between the two pieces of the retainer and keep oil from getting in under the seal so it won't try to rotate.

02-22-2024, 11:37 AM	#6
duke36 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 1,414	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Side note; some oil pans have been seen with a hole in the bottom of the rope seal trough.

02-22-2024, 06:25 PM	#8
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer It looks like Ford used Body Solder to fill that area. It will have to be well cleaned and tinned to get the stuff to stick. Ford likely had tools to shape it and insure it was sized properly. It might be easier to find another pan but the job is doable.

02-22-2024, 08:51 PM	#9
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer Different solders have different ratios of the components, normally lead and tin. The ratios determine if the solder melts all together or has a slushy stage where it can be worked like putty. I don't know the ratios for body solder, called body lead, but it has a slushy stage during heating. The body lead was worked with a wood paddle. The steel was tinned with a steel wool that was saturated with a tin compound. I don't know the chemistry of the compound but it put a bright tin on the steel so that the body lead could stick. The solder used for joining wires has a ratio of components so that it all melts at a certain temperature and does not have a slushy stage. It is called eutectic solder. It is not a good choice for filling in voids such as on the oil pan in question. I hope there is an old body man (or woman) out there who can add some information to this. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

02-23-2024, 02:23 PM	#10
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer The best tinning solution or powder was Dutch Boy but they banned the use of mercury additives due to almost certain exposure problems if no gloves were used. The EPA did away with all that stuff. The modern tinning materials can work but a person has to experiment with them for a while. The solder is generally 30 tin and 70 lead or Sn30/Pb70. There were others with more or less tin. Fortunately, it is still available. The tinning butter is funky stuff. I miss the old Dutch Boy products. It might be better to use something modern that you can work with. PC7 epoxy or one of the other putty type epoxies might be easier to get in there and smooth out. A person would need a disk that would help form the radius. Something like that would be a lot easier than going back to the dark ages with lead/tin solder. Last edited by rotorwrench; 02-24-2024 at 02:52 PM.

02-24-2024, 07:27 AM	#11
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Oil, pan, front seal retainer Rotorwrench has good point. Besides the question of why there is solder there, if someone is fixing a gap in a pan or other part, JB Weld or similar product would be a good choice. All oil and foreign material has to be removed with a final clean with acetone. A rough surface is best. As far as I know, no one uses body lead anymore. Bondo is the material of choice now. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 02-24-2024 at 01:18 PM.