Sudden Lock Up

[jg61hawk]

I backed up my driveway, turned the wheel to make me straight...moved forwarded in first at a very slow speed and BANG!!! the car stopped. I was shocked to say the least, I tried going forward but it was like the brakes were on. I backed up only about two feet. Then shifted into first... the old gal went forward about 50 feet and BANG and locked up.

Long story short... It kept doing this...so I stopped backing up. I jacked up the rear wheels and the right side was stuck solid. As soon as I turned it backwards it released.

I pulled the right drum and don't see any problems. The car is currently on jack stands. I ran it through the gears up to 45 MPH and in reverse. Never had a problem with the old gal.....

While it was on stands and in gear I stopped each wheel and the other took over. Shifted it through three gears..... Your thoughts...?

[old31]

Have you tried to adjust the brake rods per the red book?

Curious are the stands under the axles or the frame? I could see that if they are under the frame that would alter the brake adjustments because that would bend the frame.

[Synchro909]

Sounds to me like you're up for a diff rebuild.

[Phil Brown]

Could be a broken ring or pinion gear, hopefully not

[nkaminar]

Drain oil from differential. Run a magnet through it to see if there are any metal particles. You could also run the oil through a milk filter.

[Patrick L.]

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What does BANG mean ? It just wouldn't move , or, it came to a stop with a BANG ?

It could be a side gear issue or maybe even a brake adjustment issue as mentioned.

[lrjones]

Emergency brake??

[DJ S]

Do you have a stock transmission or a T-5?

Just had a similar issue with a T-5 conversion. Rear radius rods broke which allowed the rear axle to rotate. As the rear axle was trying to rotate, the brake rods were being pulled thus activating the brakes.

[jack backer]

It’s all guesses till you spot the root cause.. metal check oil first, Inspect brakes second..

[Big hammer]

Sounds like a transmission problem, pull the shifter tower, borrow a good known tower and give it a try. If you where closer I have a good tower you could use.

[arnhemmer]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

I backed up my driveway, turned the wheel to make me straight...moved forwarded in first at a very slow speed and BANG!!! the car stopped. I was shocked to say the least, I tried going forward but it was like the brakes were on. I backed up only about two feet. Then shifted into first... the old gal went forward about 50 feet and BANG and locked up.

Long story short... It kept doing this...so I stopped backing up. I jacked up the rear wheels and the right side was stuck solid. As soon as I turned it backwards it released.

I pulled the right drum and don't see any problems. The car is currently on jack stands. I ran it through the gears up to 45 MPH and in reverse. Never had a problem with the old gal.....

While it was on stands and in gear I stopped each wheel and the other took over. Shifted it through three gears..... Your thoughts...?

Broken ring or pinion gears. Looks like you are in for a rebuild.

[nkaminar]

Irjones, post #7, has a good point. The emergency brake bracket that holds the shoe can break causing the emergency brake to lock up. You might try taking the shoe off and inspecting the bracket.

[rotorwrench]

I'd say something jammed in between two gears either in the transmission or rear axle. When reversing the motion, whatever is doing the jamming is being pushed back out of the teeth contact. It could be a broken tooth or is could be some other broken part.

Check easiest first which would be a transmission shift tower removal after a check of brake components. A person can remove the left axle housing and pull the whole drive axle & differential out to check but that is a good chunk of work more than checking the transmission.

You may get lucky with this happening at low speed movement. Some angel is watching out for you. At high speed, this would be catastrophic.

[Gary WA]

Originally Posted by arnhemmer

Broken ring or pinion gears. Looks like you are in for a rebuild.

I agree, happened to me years back thought it was brakes( NOT) Broken teeth in rear end! as states pull plug and fish with magnet see what you fish out.

[edzaha]

I would say your ebrake lining has broken loose and is jamming in revers

[jg61hawk]

UPDATE: First thanks for the help and suggestions. The entire brake system is new in 2014 including everything.....the car is on jack stands under the axle...Shift Tower was rebuilt by vendor in 2015...3,000 miles on that. Always change oils in everything. Long story short... I inspected the entire undercarriage (as you guys suggested).... no problems, brakes..no problems...SO I DRAINED the differential...PROBLEM... metal flakes on a magnet and when wiped off it looked like I painted my finger silver. Probably not normal...?? I'm a shade tree mechanic...but I suspect that is too much. I guess the rear is shot.

Rotor wrench: How true....We drive the car...to Gettysburg, and Morgantown...hours and miles....I ain't upset at all....glad she took a crap locally...great!

[Gary WA]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

UPDATE: First thanks for the help and suggestions. The entire brake system is new in 2014 including everything......the car is on jack stands under the axle...Long story short... I inspected the entire undercarriage (as you guys suggested).... no problems, brakes..no problems...SO I DRAINED the differential...PROBLEM... metal flakes on a magnet and when wiped off it looked like I painted my finger silver. Probably not normal...?? I'm a shade tree mechanic...but I suspect that is too much. I guess the rear is shot.

Keep fishing to make sure no big chunks of teeth in there! if not you may be lucky! I had big pieces that was being picked up when backing up and then drops when going forward. Keep us posted.

[nkaminar]

Full instructions for repair of the rear end are here: https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...vised-2014.pdf

[Phil Brown]

The metal flakes are a problem that needs to be addressed but there is at least one big chunk of something in there (most of the time a broke off tooth)
That's what makes the sudden stop of things when it's between the ring and pinion teeth. Keep going and it continues to break off more and more teeth to do more destruction and jamming up
The above link has a ton of info on the rebuilding making it easier

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

UPDATE: First thanks for the help and suggestions. The entire brake system is new in 2014 including everything.....the car is on jack stands under the axle...Shift Tower was rebuilt by vendor in 2015...3,000 miles on that. Always change oils in everything. Long story short... I inspected the entire undercarriage (as you guys suggested).... no problems, brakes..no problems...SO I DRAINED the differential...PROBLEM... metal flakes on a magnet and when wiped off it looked like I painted my finger silver. Probably not normal...?? I'm a shade tree mechanic...but I suspect that is too much. I guess the rear is shot.

Rotor wrench: How true....We drive the car...to Gettysburg, and Morgantown...hours and miles....I ain't upset at all....glad she took a crap locally...great!

You are going to need to rebuild the differential. It is not difficult if you are handy with tools. The download on post 18 is mine. I have rebuilt hundreds of differentials, and if you follow the directions, it will get you there. If you go on to the web site of the Santa Anita A's of Arcadia California, www.santaanitaas.org, on the home page is my name, Tom Endy, click on it and it will bring up additional differential articles.

You should replace all the bearings, races, seals, and gaskets, cost is about $400 from Bratton's. A new ring & pinion will cost about $500. More than likely everything else in the differential will be serviceable as long as the threads and keys on the axles are serviceable.

take your time with it and be sure to use a proper spring spreader when removing the rear end. That spring can be lethal.

If you need help with questions, e-mail me at [email protected]. If you lived here in Southern California, I could rebuild it for you as I have cottage industry offering that service. Labor fee is a flat $600.

Tom Endy

[Marshall V. Daut]

I didn't see it mentioned so far, but a super easy way to tell if a tooth has broken off the ring gear is to remove the top oil filler plug in the differential center housing. This will give you access to the ring gear. Take a small flashlight and a long screwdriver and with the transmission in neutral, use the screwdriver to step the ring gear through its path, one tooth at a time. Mark the first tooth with a light-colored spray paint or White-Out so that you know you have already checked that tooth. If a tooth has broken off, you will see and feel it as its turn comes before the open filler plug hole. It's more likely that a ring gear tooth has broken off than a tooth from the pinion gear. If you find a chipped or missing tooth, you'll know what needs to be done.
On the other hand, should no tooth be broken or chipped, a differential gear (spider gear) may be frozen on its shaft. This is rare, but can happen, especially if the rear end lube level was low or the wrong kind of lube was used. Possibly water damage over the years started the process of rusting shafts. I have only seen this happen once in my Model A years and that was because the lube in the rear end had leaked out and the moving parts inside the differential ran dry.
The only other thing I can think of that could have caused this problem would be a loose pinion bearing. If that happened, you'd feel a vibration upon decelerating because the driveshaft would be wobbling against the ring gear. If allowed to continue and progressively get looser, the heavier pinion gear will eventually shear ring gear teeth and/or jam and lock up against the ring gear.
Let's hope for your sake (and your wallet's!) that none of these scenarios comes to pass!
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

My advice above, of course, will only help if you can turn the ring gear. If it's locked up and won't allow itself to be turned by a screwdriver between the teeth, the rear end has to come apart anyway.

[jg61hawk]

Thanks for the advice. I removed the drain plugs. The car is on jack stands so I could turn the rear wheels and watch inside. Did not see any teeth broken on ring gear. Heard nothing strange. I did see damage (see pictures). There were chips on, the flange area of the ring gear...not sure I described that correctly. Hopefully the pictures are clear. I also filled the rear with kerosene and spun the wheels and drained it...no pieces. I took a magnetic pick up tool in both drain holes...nothing substantial.

[Jerry Kzoo]

With the trans in neutral see if both rear wheels will spin at the same time in the same direction. That will tell if the jam is in the differential. You might have sheared off a axle key and the one side was spinning inside the hub??

[johnneilson]

There is damage to the ring gear minor diameter edges, it needs come apart

suspect pinion gear problems

best of luck, J

[jg61hawk]

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With the trans in neutral see if both rear wheels will spin at the same time in the same direction. That will tell if the jam is in the differential. You might have sheared off a axle key and the one side was spinning inside the hub??

The car is on jack stands in neutral both wheels can spin in same and opposite direction...I don't know what that means but it appears you do...HELP!

[Phil Brown]

Yea no need to waste your time looking through that little oil hole that one pic shows something hit the gear carrier and the gear.it needs to come apart
Unless you want to just see how far it can go as it self destructs

[Synchro909]

The wheel turning in opposite directions like that is quite normal.
If a tooth were to part company, it is usually from the pinion. About the only way to have a look at that without taking everything apart is with a fibre-optic camera. Even then, it would be difficult.

[johnneilson]

You could wait until it looks like this... it only went 7 miles

John

[Arkomo]

You know my friend had his rear axle start doing some very loud popping. It turned out that he had a piece of one of the spur gears broke out and was getting caught between the ring gear and the diff case. Even cracked the banjo. Had to rebuild the whole thing.
You could have something like that or possibly a bearing was the culprit. Never the less, I bet you will need to take the diff apart. Tom

[Randall]

U joint

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by Randall

U joint

Gotta ask how that computes?

[Randall]

if u joint has broken it can lock wheel,I had one to break on my T going to Ohio and it slide tires,the pieces can float around and then go back in place letting drive shaft turn again ,would check before I took diff.apart,also wondering if nuts that hold pinion bearing has backed off

[Phil Brown]

Originally Posted by Randall

U joint

I can see that happening, but he already said that when he drained the oil there was a lot if metalic mixed with it so there are most likely still problems in the rear.
But if it is a bad u-joint he will see that as soon as the rear axel is separated from the trans clamshell

[nkaminar]

Could be both. In any case the rear end will have to come apart. Sorry.

[stevemclark]

If you need a new ring and pinion ,Pinion 9 Teeth - Ring 34 Teeth - Standard 3:78 to 1,now is the time to consider if you want to go with a higher ratio,Pinion 11 Teeth - Ring 36 Teeth -3:25:1 High Speed( actually it's 3:27:1) a 13.5% increase in speed, 45mph=58.5mph,50mph=63mph estimated , but 1st and 2nd gears are higher too.You will need to change the speedometer driven gear as well , that is very easy to do.Some venders have these ,Mikes has both,check to see who ever you go with has them in stock as well as the speedometer gear if you change ratio.It's cheaper than overdrive. I have thought about this but living in the mountains overdrive would be it for me.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by stevemclark

If you need a new ring and pinion ,Pinion 9 Teeth - Ring 34 Teeth - Standard 3:78 to 1,now is the time to consider if you want to go with a higher ratio,Pinion 11 Teeth - Ring 36 Teeth -3:25:1 High Speed( actually it's 3:27:1) a 13.5% increase in speed, 45mph=58.5mph,50mph=63mph estimated , but 1st and 2nd gears are higher too.You will need to change the speedometer driven gear as well , that is very easy to do.Some venders have these ,Mikes has both,check to see who ever you go with has them in stock as well as the speedometer gear if you change ratio.It's cheaper than overdrive. I have thought about this but living in the mountains overdrive would be it for me.

Steve, that is interesting, because I was a at a car meet and a guy told me he would not install the S-10 transmission again. Said it was a lot of work, and you don't pick up that much...

[jg61hawk]

So here's the update. I drained the trans too...actually big stuff showed up in the cup part of the drain plug. I figure this car is in my possession for 9 years and we drove from NJ to Gettysburg and Morgantown National Meets. In 9 years I put 5,000 miles on it. Engine is perfect.
I removed the rear hubs, no brake issues that I saw. I put new keys in the axles, and torqued to 125. I bought magnetic differential drain and fill plugs. I'm going to refill all fluids and drive it locally (like I have generally always done). NO MORE long hauls until I get it professionally repaired. In NJ there are no "local" places, but Schwalms is about 200 miles away and I can handle that. They have a waiting list...but I'll see what happens. Generally if I take the car to a local diner or small car show it's done for about a month.

[Keith True]

Are you really going to drive it around? When I find pieces in a rear or trans I won't even move it two feet under power.It gets put into the garage with the forklift,wheel dollys,or off the back of the truck.Right now you might have a broken part or two,a ring,pinion,axle gear,spider gear,bearing,you wouldn't know until you open it.You might get many miles or months,but you also might get 100 feet and grenade the whole thing.I saw a 32 rear self destruct because the owner wouldn't listen to my boss.It would clunk,lock up,and free up when he backed up.Then it was good for a while.It let go less than 100 feet from his driveway,and it took both axle trumpets,the center,both axles,the carrier,and the driveshaft.

[Phil Brown]

Keep your phone handy, one to call AAA, and two, to take pictures because the destruction night be epic
Not judging your decision, just probley not the one that most of us would make

[jg61hawk]

Yeah Phil and Keith you're probably right...Why make a bad situation worse? I did put it back together and moved it around without incident. I can't trust it so I'll just have to wait until such time I can repair it myself or send it to the "hospital". At least I can run it up and down the driveway to keep the engine in good shape.
I guess I was just venting yesterday about running it until it blows up. Kinda pissed off that I change everything on schedule keep it dry, clean and babied. Of course this ain't TV, but how funny so many shows just find an old A, prime it and off they go....I pamper the old girl and she craps on me!

[Phil Brown]

Everybody's situation is different and you have to do what works best for YOU at the time. One day with my race car (turbocharged VWBug) we cracked the trans case at the track. Knew that I should not make any more passes but it was running too good. So we hung a cookie sheet-type pan under the transaxle to keep the gear oil off the track and hoped for the best. Next pass 9.83 at 143 mph pass after that cost the whole gear box

[nkaminar]

The thought came to my mind that there may be some question about the lubrication you used. Since both the rear end and transmission have developed problems, and since you most likely used the same oil in both, then perhaps it was caused by the oil.

Mitchell, who make the overdrive and the sychro transmission recommend 85W-140 modern transmission oil in their products. The "600 weight" oil that you can buy from the dealers can be anything since it does not come with any specification or rating. Besides that, the modern transmission oils have additives to extend the life of the gears and bearings. The transmission oils that were used 90 years ago are not as good as what is available today and the 600 weight oils that are available today may not be any better or even worse.

I would be interested in learning what transmission oils you used.

In my youth, I ruined a gearbox on an old motorcycle by using the wrong oil in it. It was completely trashed in about 10 minutes of hard use. I rode it just as hard and had no problems with the gearbox when it had the right oil in it.

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

So here's the update. I drained the trans too...actually big stuff showed up in the cup part of the drain plug. I figure this car is in my possession for 9 years and we drove from NJ to Gettysburg and Morgantown National Meets. In 9 years I put 5,000 miles on it. Engine is perfect.
I removed the rear hubs, no brake issues that I saw. I put new keys in the axles, and torqued to 125. I bought magnetic differential drain and fill plugs. I'm going to refill all fluids and drive it locally (like I have generally always done). NO MORE long hauls until I get it professionally repaired. In NJ there are no "local" places, but Schwalms is about 200 miles away and I can handle that. They have a waiting list...but I'll see what happens. Generally if I take the car to a local diner or small car show it's done for about a month.

Your plan sounds reasonable to me, drive it close to home and enjoy it until you can have the rear end repaired, you can't do that much damage, worst care you could crack the banjo, easily replaced. As long as you have a means. to get it back home.

I am not aware of Schwalmes. I suspect it is going to cost you $2,000 or more. I have been doing differential overhauls here in southern California for the past 35 years. I have done hundreds of them. I charge a flat labor fee or $600 and the cost of the new bearings, races, seal and gaskets is $400. A new ring and pinion gear when needed is $500. However, I stock serviceable originals for much less. Banjos, ring gear carriers, and Axles I have in stock at a reasonable fee if needed. Spyder gears I don't charge for. I usually turn the job around in about a week.

Good luck with your project,
Tom Endy