Cost of rebuild a flathead

[sanborn]

A young friend needs to totally rebuild his 50 flathead. It will be a stock rebuild. I estimated it to cost about $1500-$1700 for parts and shop labor. Is this in the "ballpark"? Carb and ignition work would be extra.

The engine is running now but compression is very low(25-60 lbs.) and the usual tricks to get it up didn't work. The engine doesn't have enough power to pull up a steep hill.

[Gumpy]

I would say 15-17 is a good price I am having one rebuilt now...its costing more than that in calif....a good guage for price is ebay....I have seen them between 22-2995......on up....You may want to ad adjustable lifters.....and better forged pistons but not necessary...I went with new cast pistons a little better than Henry's....flatheads can put out some hp....and will beat a 327 if built right.....happy new year Gump

[36tbird]

I think that $15 to $17 is low, sorry to say. I's say that you take what it costs to rebuild a Chevy Small Block and go at least 2 1/2 times as much, maybe 3. That is, if you want build in reliability and dependability. If you are going for any speed or dress up, all bets are off. Nostalgia is expensive.

[CWPASADENA]

The problem is this stuff is it is OLD. When you get into it, things crop up that you did not anticipate. Parts seem to be about twice what simular parts for a SBC would cost.

It takes me twice as long to assemble a flathead as it does a SBC.

Try to have someone who currectly works on Flatheads help you. You do not want to pay for the learning curve for a shop that is not familar with Flatheads.

Just my opinion.

Chris

[Coupe35]

I think a lot of people go overboard when they rebuild a flathead. Since this is not an engine that will see a lot of miles, I usually put in new pistons(if there is a lot of slop) or rings only if fairly tight and new valve rings. That's about all I do to an engine. And I do all the work myself, except for the boring piston holes. Some people will tell you a rebuilt engine will need to be balance. That I believe is a big waste of money. I was talked into having one balanced and I could not tell any difference between it and one that was not balance.

[ole_Bill]

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My rebuilt 59A is sitting in the basement waiting for the car to return from the paint shop. I have over $5000 invested in the engine including the speed equipment and I still need carbs. Cost of the machine work alone was $1600. Everything in mine is new except for the Mercury 4" crank and the valve seats, which were OK. And I didn't skimp. I had a 6V electronic distributer with a 21A crab cap built especially for this car. The cost occasionally delayed parts purchase and extended the rebuild time frame but I wanted it done right. I could have gone to a SBC for a third of this cost but that ain't what I wanted in my '36 sedan.

This whole project was financed by selling my beloved Ferrari. Sometimes you gotta make hard choices.

[ajohn]

About 20 years ago,I had the machine shop at the foot of the hill I live on rebuild a 1941 100 horse engine, an 81T as I best remember.It cost me $700.I was horrified! In today's money,we would be looking at 3 grand,I think,although Obama says there is no inflation.Nowdays,I take the most outlandish price I can think of and square it.I'm usually still a little low on price.It is unbelievable what cost can run. James

[FHFD]

IMG_0787.JPGIrregardless of the engine, for me, it is do it all the way, or don't do it. I recently had my flathead rebuilt. My rebuild consisted of:

Deluxe degrease
Dis-assemble shortblock
Bore cylinders
Crankshaft turn
Assemble shortblock
Grind valve seats
Re-size rods
R&R pistons
Balance (if you see the material taken off, it will convince you to do it next time)
New parts: main bearings, rod bearings, cam bearings, timing gears, oil pump, all new valves, valve keepers, valve springs, camshaft, pistons, rings, adjustable lifters, complete gasket set and paint.
Cost: $3,000.00 (intake, heads, carbs, etc. extra)

[38 Ford Pickup]

Just had mine done in Chicago $4500 all in. Great job done

[Russ/40]

There seems to be much regional differences. If you do the tear-down and assembly yourself, you can pretty much cut the cost in half.

[Ken/Alabama]

I would say you need to double that with parts and labor. Anything less is just good luck.

[41Fordor]

My 81A cost about $3500 with a balance. Isky 77-B and bored to 239 standard but otherwise all stock. My machinist knows flatheads and how to set up floating rod bearing clearances. He balked at doing non-adjustable lifters - more man hours to hand fit each one individually. Although I had to adjust them since I have smaller hands!

He said the balance helps not with power, but adds to longevity by reducing stress on the recip assembly. As was said, these aren't getting any younger and my engine may be original to the the car. It still had Ford script mushroom valves all the way around.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

I also just had one built, bored with new pistons,cam and lifters was a bit over the $3000 mark as well. Pretty typical flathead build in the Indianapolis market.........

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Speaking of balanceing. I just had this 276 that I am now building balanced. You cain't believe how far out this 50 merc crank was. Of course i'm useing 3 ring EGGE pistons, but there not that much lighter. Had to drill some big holes in the counter weights. I build a 276 last winter with a new Scat 4in. crank. That was so far out I thought would have to send it back. Balancing make a big differance. Walt

[flat-v8]

Just about 20 yrs ago, by accident, I found this old man who loved to rebuild flatheads, probably had been doing it for years and years, and still just loved doing it! I told him I need everything, motor and tranny with a 12v generator. He had several blocks, and all the other parts to build several complete engines. he built me a new rebuilt 100HP stock 59A with crab style distributor, 12v gen, Holley 94,and new rebuilt 39 transmission with clutch and all, running and ready to drop in, total cost $1200. Even 20 years ago I knew I got a super deal!

[sturgis 39]

I had a 49 to 53 engine rebuilt five years ago. The cost was $3500.00. The next one I am thinking of having H and H do the work. They do them all the time and publish their prices and know what to look for. The freight will be an expense but I think It will be worth the money.

[dude]

I agree with Russ/40. I started planning a rebuild 5-6 years ago. Shop for the right parts beforehand ,it will save you a some money.

[joel]

If you add hard seats,new valves (one piece stainless),guides,springs,cam and heads flattened, block squared, balanced crank assy., I would think $2200/$2300. You do the assembly.

[Ol' Ron]

Great thread. I think the cost of rebuilding depends on what the original engine/box of parts were. The engine in the original question (50 Ford), Would be relitively inexpensive as everything in the engine is reusable. Valves, regrind. crank, regrind. Rods reusable as is. oil pump, reusable as is. Obviously anything defective is replaced. If and a big IF the rotating assy is original and only pistons are replaced, then I think Ballancing is a waste of money and I know of no shops in this country that balance their engines. This is a customers option. When I first went into the rebuilding business I used Patricks engine kits, they ran about $500 I charged 125 to bore .125". 80 bucks for a valve job. Then Assembly the engine. At that time I charges 500 dollars for my labor, which included porting and clearancing the heads for valve lift. Cam and lifters were extra.
Today we have over kill on what is done to these engines and the price to do them. One re builder once told me, when a Flathead came into his shop the cost automatically went up a thousand dollars, because they took too much time.
Now lets bust another myth, power output of a street Flathead won't exceed 150 HP We've dyno'd too many of them. The last 276 with L-100 8.5CR some port work and a PM-7 produced only 135 @ 4600, and this was not a cheep rebuild.

[thunderbirdesq]

Too many variables... I have about 3500 in mine and I did EVERYTHING myself, including machining. I started with a complete runner in good shape that had been rebuilt in the 80's and seen very little miles since. But... .of course I couldn't leave well enough alone, and since there was a little bit of wear to the bores, I bored it again. Added old weiand heads/intake/fuel rail, chrome 97's, headers, etc...

Like Ron says above, it depends on what you start with and also how far you want to go.

[FHFD]

Benefits of balancing an engine:

Longevity
Smooth operation
Reduced vibration/stress
Improves performance/efficiency (higher maximum operating speeds made possible by reduced stress, spreading loads equally over all components).
Save on fuel
Reduces friction (heat)
Lessens component failure

It is a common practice, and is done throughout the country, by reputable machine shops. The engine on my above post (which cost $3,000.00 for the parts and machining), the balance portion of the bill was $175.00. Why would anyone not have it done?

[Krylon32]

I guess things must be a little higher in the midwest. By the time I find a really good block and take it apart have it cleaned properly, machined with all new internals, rebalance the SCAT assemble and the other parts, new flywheel/pressure plate, disc,
assemble it with a new 3/97 carb setup from Baxter, new Offy heads, pumps etc and get it ready for the customer to run I have a hell of a lot more than 5 grand in it. I guess there's overhauling and there's rebuilding.

[OLD...BILL]

Balance it by all means BALANCE, for smooth running stock or other, it will last longer too.... OLD...BILL

[Kahuna]

The real bottom line in all of this is how much you can, or are willing to do youself. If you can find a good local machine shop, you'll be ahead of the game. If you can do the disassembly, some cleaning, etc., all the better. I think that most anyone on this forum that fools around with old cars has the mechanical ability to put an engine together. Further, I think he/they should. You learn something worthwhile and end up with something to be proud of. You also know what every part of that engine does, and you'll save yourself a big pile of money. Just sayin. JMO
Jim

[Ol' Ron]

Back to balancing. I never said that an engine doesn't have to be balanced. I said if you're rebuilding a stock engine it doesn't have to be re-balanced IF abif IF all the rotating parts except pistons are original. The stock Flathead is balanced very well from the factory and the weight of the pistons is not a critical part of engine balancing. There are several formulas used in balancing and the percentages of reciprocating and rotating weight s are different.. And you can't balance out some of the harmonics.
Now IF some one uses a crank from one engine and a rod from another you should street balance the engine. Take one rod assy to the balance for him to make up a bob weight and then spin the crank. Here in the northeast balancing a complete engine runs between 3-400 dollars and some do-not know how to balance a
Flathead Rod

[Mike in AZ]

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i figure he meant his part of the country....not the whole country....or maybe he meant county.....just my guess....Mike

[ole_Bill]

NOTE TO OL' RON - Just wanted to add a note of thanks for your posts. I'm doing my first flathead and Ive learned a lot. I appreciate the time and effort you take to keep us "newbies" straight. Thanks again.

[V12Bill]

I rebuilt a V 12 about 6 or 7 years ago and it cost about $3900. The block was boiled clean and magnafluxed, crank was turned, cam rebuilt, valves, guides and springs replaced, hydraulic lifters rebuilt ,new bearings rod and mains and cam, bored and new pistons and rings and small end of rods had bushings replaced, flywheel resurfaced and the whole mess was balanced. I did all of the assembly work.

[Ol' Ron]

The V12 is the only cylinder configuration that can be balanced in all harmonics.

[Teich]

The cost of an engine rebuild- three engines to find a really good one to start with $475.00 machine shop bore and fit pistons,degrease,valve job,grind crank,plane heads alot $835.00 pistons,rings bearings crank and cam,gaskets $630.00 put it together my shelf this is a 1BA that went into my 48 car, has full flow oil but didn't cost just drilled a hole cheapest part of the whole exercise. Total cost doesn't really matter as the car sure is alot of fun!

[Straightpipes]

I think you can do it for that much. Rings, bearings, gaskets, maybe a few valves....... Some of these guys read too many magazines. Now-a-days guys tend to go way overboard with rebuilds. It's really not necessary for a stock engine.

If you are going to do any major machine work that is where it starts costing. Also, if you look too close at the block it may scare you..... Most of them have problems.

Years ago we would pull the engine, re-ring it with cast iron rings, grind the valves and be back on the road in no-time. That is, if you are not making a hotrod.

Stock flatheads don't need to be balanced as they are already balanced from the factory. It's lucky if it will ever see 3,000 rpm.

[Dee Jay]

If you are going to build a race engine and run it on fuel it is going to get expensive. For a driver it doesn't have to be. I agree with the fellows that said there is a lot of overkill. Start with a decent core,replace what needs to be replaced and leave the rest alone. Last fall I bought a 59A I cleaned it up,sharpened the valves,put in rings and bearings and surfaced the heads. Total investment was around $500.00. Shop around for parts and don't pay retail for anything. I plan on putting this engine in a vintage stock car and running the snot out of it just like we did in the 60s. Back then a friend had a 53 that cracked three pistons. He went to a junkyard and drove three pistons out of a block,put them in coffee cans with diesel fuel until most of the rings were loose and put them in. He drove the car for a year and sold it to another guy that drove it until he wrecked the car and another fellow put the engine in a stock car.

[FHFD]

No one will ever convince me that $175.00 to balance the engine, or the extra-maybe $200.00 for all new valves is an overkill. Consider at todays prices what the vehicle itself cost (the engine will be intalled in). Say it is to be put into a '30's coupe, sedan, roadster, p/u, or say a '40 Ford. What are you paying for the vehicle?, the chassis components?, the body prep/paint?, upholstery?, glass?, rubber?, etc., even if you are doing all, or part of the work. Does it somehow make since to penny pinch on its power plant? What about re-sale value, is that not a consideration? A prospective buyer of your classic Rod will be much more impressed with receipts, showing all components being replaced..I guarantee it. More importantly, what about your own piece of mind, knowing you did it right? Of course you can probably find and install used valves, pistons, hoses, gas, oil, filters, air for the tires, etc., but really, is it worth the savings? Too many magazines?..Is there a monthy publicaton now, that instructs you to replace every component in your Flathead?..I think not. Common sense prevails here. I will always balance, and replace components in any, and every engine I have apart. Nobody tells me to do this, it quite simply is the right thing to do. I am ready to read the arguments against, but I will never change what I know is right.

[Kahuna]

X2 What FHFD said
Jim

[Ol' Ron]

FHED, what you suggest has merit. Piece of mind and resale value will be in hanced buy spending the extra cash to do all this work. Unfortunately, There are many people that may just dump in a SBC when they see the costs of going the "right" way. I'd like to see these engines running and giving the owners the prid in using a Flathead, so I only did what I thought was necessary. Most (but not all) of the engines I have rebuilt are still running.

[FHFD]

Ol'Ron, I appreciate what you are saying about the ever popular SBC swap into early Ford's..personally not my thing either. I am all for seeing and hearing Flathead Fords, on the road (they will always be the cars/pickups that get my attention, at the shows). I do not question your ability, merely expressing my anal approach to a topic I am passionate about.

[Ol' Ron]

I have a few friends that think the same way, but they can afford it.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by 36tbird

I think that $15 to $17 is low, sorry to say. I's say that you take what it costs to rebuild a Chevy Small Block and go at least 2 1/2 times as much, maybe 3. That is, if you want build in reliability and dependability. If you are going for any speed or dress up, all bets are off. Nostalgia is expensive.

I agree. The machine work on my block alone will be in the ball park of $1,200.

This included:

Dipped, shot & baking the block
removing old and reinstalling new cam bearings
boring to .125 over finish honing with a torque plate
valve job & new seats installed (some of the old ones were too pitted to use)
Check NOS rods
Install pistons on rods
decked checked and lightly resurfaced
balance rotating assembly
painting the interior valve valley with sealing paint.

NOTE: I gave them the block bare. There was no tear down on there part.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

X2 What FHFD said
Jim

X3 what FHFD & Kahuna said.

Do what makes you feel comfortable. One big thing we all need to get straight: This isn't the '60's anymore. Hasn't been for 40+ years.

I hear these same old tale countless of times. "Back in the day we did this, back in the day we did that."

Well, guess what-good luck finding a flathead in any junk yard let alone one that will sell you just 2 pistons. Plus-40 years ago you had a good chance of finding a standard bore flathead that a swap like that would work.

Please don't misconstrue what I am saying. I'm not doubting anyone's story for back in the day or the way they use to do things. They use to cut cranks still when they were still in the engine, but they don't do that anymore.

I think we'd all agree disc brakes work a heck a lot better than drums, but I don't hear anyone saying well back in the day we didn't want to stop anyway and we loved it.

Some things just improved over time. Engine rebuilding is one of those things.

Plus, good flathead blocks are hard to come by and even a bigger pain in the ass to tear down.

I always have and will continue to put better stuff into an engine just for the piece of mind it gives me. For an extra $175 to balance everything looks small in cost when you puke the guts out of shotty rebuild.

Think of it this way: Someone was going to wire your home. They can use crappy, home owner grade outlets or step up and use Hubble or trade grade-US made Levitons. Sure, they will cost you about $5.00 more an outlet, but they will also last about 40X longer than the cheap one.

Plus, if installed correctly, you don't have to worry about them burning down your house. This same principal applies to flatheads or anything you should do right the first time.

Just my two cents.

[Ol' Ron]

You make a good point. 175 for balancing is a reasonable price. Unfortunately I don't know any shop that charges that. 350-400 is more like it. 200 for a street balance job.and they still don't know how to balance rods. We have a delima ere.

[Tim Ayers]

Ron:

The $175 cost for the balance may have been a discounted price since he was doing all of the other machine work. I'll ask him what an off the street price would be next time I'm there.

Tim

[GOSFAST]

A fair price is 200.00 to balance a "standard" Flathead, by this I mean one with "standard" replacement pistons, stock conn rods, and stock crank!! It does take some experience with the factory rods to get BOTH the reciprocating and the rotating ends all equal, not all that difficult though!

Ford or Merc would be the same price!

Just to touch on an average rebuild price I would guess $4500.00/$5000.00 would get a very "professional" build with ALL new components!

Based on a recent build with some "fancy" pieces and icluding the oil-filtration mod, aftermarket Eagle crank, Scat rods, Ross pistons, Edelbrock heads, Isky cam, Johnson tappets, Melling pump, etc. I would say you'd be somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000.00/$12,000.00 depending on the entire package.

This type build would definitely require a full dyno test.

Just delivered one to customer in Fla. with all the "goodies"! Made 154 HP @ 4300 and 251# Torque @ 2200 RPM. This was "292" stroker with the new Edelbrock 1116 heads! Customer is extremely satisfied with about 700 miles already on the unit!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Each of these individual "Flattie" builds really needs to be "tailored" to the car, the one mentioned above weighs about 4000#+, being a 49/50 Merc convertible. We simply needed all the available Torque we could muster up at a respectable/driveable RPM band!!! The Isky "stick" was a great help in that department!

[Ol' Ron]

It's nice to see honest Dyno numbers. I like those new Edlebrock heads.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

It's nice to see honest Dyno numbers. I like those new Edlebrock heads.

Thanks, Ron.

We will NOT "fudge" numbers here to make thing's look better, they are what they are!

The only real way to get WAY higher numbers is to change the platform to a non-normally aspirated one, like a blower or turbo!!!

I have done a few "blown" units as well with the "B&M" setup! Haven't had the occasion however to dyno one of these. I have numbers in mind but will keep them reserved here for now!

The Edelbrock heads are OK, but we needed add'l cc's from them to hit the "target" C.R. After relieving the valve pockets, both radially and deep, and upon fire-slotting the spark plug holes to unshroud the plugs to the "charge", we were able to end up at the desired number of 78 cc's!!

(Add) Feel free too "poke" around the Flathead parts in the link here!

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/567557661EjkkPG

An interesting build, normally-aspirated, would be a 10:1 "Flattie" running on E-85. We have a number of SB's and BB's using the E-85, some are seeing above 16:1. The cost of the fuel in our area is around 2.70/gal and is very hard to "detonate", haven't lost a single piston yet from the fuel itself!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The only issue I had with the Edelbrocks is in the fact they drill the head bolt holes WAYYYY too big! I had words with them about this issue and it actually was the main reason for us to devise the "pinned" heads/gaskets (using a pre-fabbed addition to our block-plate) similar to the SBC's!! Worked really well with keeping the heads more stabile and
should extend (copper) head gasket life some with the ARP stud kits!

[Kahuna]

Gary, On that 292 stroker, what cam and intake were used?
Thanks
jim

[GOSFAST]

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Originally Posted by Kahuna

Gary, On that 292 stroker, what cam and intake were used?
Thanks
jim

Hi Jim, the cam was the Isky "800" I believe, no paperwork where I am at the moment, the carb was an Edel 500 4-brl, and the intake an old "Offy"!

(Add) For a "lighter" ride I would have picked a different cam, like I stated above, we were "chasing" Torque more than HP.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. During the timeframe of the build the customer was awaiting for a "new" tri-power intake, linkage, and the carbs. They weren't here in time for the test so he opted to finish the unit with the 4-brl setup! I would suspect now he actually has some add'l HP and Torque, but it would only be a "guess-timate". Probably around 10/15 or so, in that area! Would liked to have had the intake setup for the test but that wasn't "in-the-cards", this was solely the customer's choice!

[Kahuna]

Thankyou Gary
regards
Jim

[Ol' Ron]

Gary, do you have a copy of JWL's book? There is allot of dyno information comparing different modifications. I have found that the Flathead peeks at about 46-4800 RPM reguardless what cam, valves, porting, and carbonation you put on it. There are exceptions of coarse and I talking street engines. I'll be interested in your blower tests. I've spected out a 294 (3 5/16 X 4 1/4) blower motor for a friend of mine. This includes the Edelebrock heads and A Can Technique blower cam. Blower will be the Magnason Eaton system. Waiting for the blower.
Good luck Ol' Ron

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Gary, do you have a copy of JWL's book? There is allot of dyno information comparing different modifications. I have found that the Flathead peeks at about 46-4800 RPM reguardless what cam, valves, porting, and carbonation you put on it. There are exceptions of coarse and I talking street engines. I'll be interested in your blower tests. I've spected out a 294 (3 5/16 X 4 1/4) blower motor for a friend of mine. This includes the Edelebrock heads and A Can Technique blower cam. Blower will be the Magnason Eaton system. Waiting for the blower.
Good luck Ol' Ron

Hi Ron, negative on the JWL (?) book, the only "Flattie" book I have here is one written by a close friend, Bill Sinclair of "Thunder-Road Flatheads". He campaigns a nostalgic stock-car up here in the Northeast! Did his "Flattie" build some years ago, still running strong!

As I stated earlier here, I never had the opportunity to dyno a blown Flathead unit but I do have a general idea about the power numbers!

With respect to building the "blown" units, keeping in mind the purpose of the blower is to greatly increase the Torque numbers, I'd be inclined to run a shorter (3.750"/4.000") stroke when built on this platform! We find the Chev's like the strokes/rod-lengths somewhat on the shorter side! This is NOT "etched-in-stone", only a general "rule-of-thumb"!! This would also require ALL pertinent input, vehicle weight, intended purpose (street or strip only, or both) rear gearing, tire height, trans, etc. to do an effective build.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We enjoy doing the "one-off" builds, such as the "Flatheads", the old iconic "Nailheads", and many others. I have a very respectable pump-gas "Nailhead" powered Henry-J running out of Massachusetts. Customer does well with his ride, 11.1's @ 117/118! This is a "streeter", not a track only deal!