Need help holley 1904

[my55customline]

HI I,M NEW HERE I HAVE 55 FORD CUSTOMLINE WITH A 223 MOTOR I WHAT TO KNOW WHAT CARBURETOR IS USED I UNDERSTAND IT USE HOLLEY 1904 BUT I CONFUSE WITH THE CARBURETOR BECAUSE I SEE WITH SPARK CONTROL VALVE AND NONE SPARK CONTROL VALVE I NEED HELP THANK

[Dobie Gillis]

Try this website. They have a pretty good explanation of how your carb/distributor combination work together, and the purpose of the spark control valve. Ignore references to V8s; the Loadomatic system was used on 6s, too.

http://classicinlines.com/Loadomatic.asp

[RCM]

See thread "single barrel hollys" on this Late V8 (1954+) subforum, and welcome.

[Daves55Sedan]

You need to have the single bbl carb that has the spark control valve. The 223 distributor has a load-o-matic distributor. It will not work properly without the spark control valve on the carb

[my55customline]

Thanks for the replies. Does anyone have any pictures of the distributor and carb? I am new to these cars and trying to figure out my way through the load-o-matic stuff. My car has the distributor with the two exposed springs which I've read are meant to belong to the early load-o-matic equiped cars. What is the main difference between this dist and the later one? Also my car had a carb installed that was not the original equipment carb on it but it did have the SCV. I have on hand another carb with the glass bowl that came off a 60 Edsel list #2077, will this carb work on my car or are there modifications that need to be done?

[scicala]

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Originally Posted by my55customline

Thanks for the replies. Does anyone have any pictures of the distributor and carb? I am new to these cars and trying to figure out my way through the load-o-matic stuff. My car has the distributor with the two exposed springs which I've read are meant to belong to the early load-o-matic equiped cars. What is the main difference between this dist and the later one? Also my car had a carb installed that was not the original equipment carb on it but it did have the SCV. I have on hand another carb with the glass bowl that came off a 60 Edsel list #2077, will this carb work on my car or are there modifications that need to be done?

Great info from Dobie Gillis. Also wanted to add that the 1952 thru 1957 215 and 223 Ford 6 cyl. engines used the Holley 1904 and they did not have a spark control valve. They were still the Loadomatic systems and still used a combination of ported and venturi vacuum, but without the spark valve.
In 1958 and up they used a spark control valve.
If you're car is a 1955 with the 1955 distributor still in it, then the carb you use should not have a spark control valve. In other words, the carb on the engine now, and the Edsel carb are not correct since they have a spark control valve.
A little confusing I guess, but hope it helps.

Sal

[Dobie Gillis]

The main difference between a Loadomatic distributor and a non Loadomatic is the non Loadomatic has centrifugal and vacuum advance. The Loadomatic is vacuum advance only and must be paired with a Loadomatic compatible carb. A Loadomatic carb can be used with a non Loadomatic distributor with certain modifications. I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I believe the 6 cyl Edsels were still using the Loadomatic system in 1960, so your 2077 carb should work but you may need to fiddle with it to optimize it.

[RCM]

You might also wanna look at my still ongoing problem: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154487
Worthy input from barners.
Gook luck

[scicala]

Originally Posted by Dobie Gillis

The main difference between a Loadomatic distributor and a non Loadomatic is the non Loadomatic has centrifugal and vacuum advance. The Loadomatic is vacuum advance only and must be paired with a Loadomatic compatible carb. A Loadomatic carb can be used with a non Loadomatic distributor with certain modifications. I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I believe the 6 cyl Edsels were still using the Loadomatic system in 1960, so your 2077 carb should work but you may need to fiddle with it to optimize it.

The Laodomatic systems on '52 thru '57 Ford 215 and 223 6 cyls. used carbs without a spark valve to open and shut off the manifold vacuum signal. They use a combination of ported vacuum and venturi vacuum for the diaphragm on the distributor, so the distributors on these engines have a dist diaphragm and springs unique for this.
I'm saying that a carb with a spark valve is not as originally intended. I'm sure it may run well with the Edsel carb, but is not correct or optimum for the '55 Ford 6 cyl.
I have Ford shop manual, Holley manual and self experience to back this up.

[Dobie Gillis]

Originally Posted by scicala

The Laodomatic systems on '52 thru '57 Ford 215 and 223 6 cyls. used carbs without a spark valve to open and shut off the manifold vacuum signal. They use a combination of ported vacuum and venturi vacuum for the diaphragm on the distributor, so the distributors on these engines have a dist diaphragm and springs unique for this.
I'm saying that a carb with a spark valve is not as originally intended. I'm sure it may run well with the Edsel carb, but is not correct or optimum for the '55 Ford 6 cyl.
I have Ford shop manual, Holley manual and self experience to back this up.

No doubt and I wasn't trying to start a p*ssing contest. I was only suggesting that the Edsel carb would probably work OK, possibly with fiddling, not knowing how concerned with originality the OP is since he hasn't said. If it were my car I would ditch the carbs and distributor and go with a more modern distributor that has both vacuum and centrifugal advance and a more modern carb, but you can probably tell from my avatar that I'm not too concerned with originality. That train left the station before I bought the car.

[Daves55Sedan]

Now I need to ask this... there are two vac ports on the '55, 223 intake manifold; one is for windshield wiper connection and the un-used port is plugged (appears to have always been). Where should that un-used port be piped to if I am using Holley 1904 without SCV? Currently the carb has tubing routed to dist vac diaphragm. I there supposed to be a "tee" in that line???

[Daves55Sedan]

Now I need to ask this... there are two vac ports on the '55, 223 intake manifold; one is for windshield wiper connection and the un-used port is plugged (appears to have always been). Where should that un-used port be piped to if I am using Holley 1904 without SCV? Currently the carb has tubing routed to dist vac diaphragm. Is there supposed to be a "tee" in that line???
Currently, my Holley 1904 is converted with a valve body that has SCV. The engine was very sluggish upon accelleration after climbing to normal operating temperature. I had been given to believe that I had the wrong carb (by several sources) and that I needed the one that included the SCV.
I have been doing some other work to the Courier so I have not started this thing up and tested it yet. Now I am wondering from all I have read here, it may be okay to leave the carb with the SCV, but what about the manifold vacuum. (currently, there is only ported vacuum)?

[scicala]

Originally Posted by Dobie Gillis

No doubt and I wasn't trying to start a p*ssing contest. I was only suggesting that the Edsel carb would probably work OK, possibly with fiddling, not knowing how concerned with originality the OP is since he hasn't said. If it were my car I would ditch the carbs and distributor and go with a more modern distributor that has both vacuum and centrifugal advance and a more modern carb, but you can probably tell from my avatar that I'm not too concerned with originality. That train left the station before I bought the car.

I apologize for coming across a little over-defensive. I get carried away once in a while. Bottom line is, I agree the car will probably run good enough with the Edsel carb (spark control valve). I also agree the distributors with centrifugal advance are more desirable. The Loadomatic design in my mind is overcomplicated for the time, and not real efficient.

Sal

[scicala]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

Now I need to ask this... there are two vac ports on the '55, 223 intake manifold; one is for windshield wiper connection and the un-used port is plugged (appears to have always been). Where should that un-used port be piped to if I am using Holley 1904 without SCV? Currently the carb has tubing routed to dist vac diaphragm. Is there supposed to be a "tee" in that line???
Currently, my Holley 1904 is converted with a valve body that has SCV. The engine was very sluggish upon accelleration after climbing to normal operating temperature. I had been given to believe that I had the wrong carb (by several sources) and that I needed the one that included the SCV.
I have been doing some other work to the Courier so I have not started this thing up and tested it yet. Now I am wondering from all I have read here, it may be okay to leave the carb with the SCV, but what about the manifold vacuum. (currently, there is only ported vacuum)?

I believe the 2nd vacuum port in the manifold may have been incase the car had power brakes. Would be rare on a 6 cyl. car, but possible. Just a guess. The V-8's in 1955 used a T-type brass fitting that supplied vacuum to the wipers and power brakes.

Don't put direct manifold vacuum to the distributor, or you will be over advanced at idle and light loads. Keep the distributor connected to the port on the side of the carb (about half way up the carb).

If still sluggish on acceleration, it's possible the spark valve small diaphragm is ruptured, or there is a vacuum leak in the distributor diaphragm or line from the carb to the dist.

Sal

[Dobie Gillis]

No apology needed, Sal. we can all get a little crotchety sometimes, me included.

[Jimz Bird]

Hi,

First post here so a quick intro.
I have a '56 Tbird and a '56 Mainline 272, 2bbl, 3spd.

Lots of good info here and on the "single barrel hollys" referenced already.
One more link that may help with your 1904
http://www.carburetor-blog.com/holley-1904-carburetor/

Lots of good stuff there and some videos. Also, just down a ways is a link to the 1904 Manual that was also referenced on the other thread from the Old Car Manual Project but this is a combined .pdf.

I would also agree Not to use direct manifold vacuum on the dizzy and just from the carb. The Load O Matics are very sensitive to LOW vacuum. It ranges from:
"1956 223 6 (1955 pretty much the same)
Distributor Vacuum Advance Data:
at 300 RPM: 0 - 1/2, Inches vacuum: .18
at 400 RPM: 1/4 - 1-1/4, Inches vacuum: .32
at 500 RPM: 1-3/4 - 2-3/4, Inches vacuum: .50
at 1200 RPM: 8 - 9-1/4, Inches vacuum: 2.59
at 1600 RPM: 10-3/4 - 11-3/4, Inches vacuum: 4.22
at 2000 RPM: 13 - 14-1/2, Inches vacuum: 6.00"
That is of course dizzy RPM so twice that for engine RPM.

The only way the springs for the vacuum advance can be accurately adjusted is on a Sun Distributor Machine that also has a Manometer accessory because the standard vacuum gauge on the Sun DT is not calibrated that precise at low vacuum.

HTH
Jim

[oj]

Originally Posted by Jimz Bird

Hi,

First post here so a quick intro.
I have a '56 Tbird and a '56 Mainline 272, 2bbl, 3spd.

Lots of good info here and on the "single barrel hollys" referenced already.
One more link that may help with your 1904
http://www.carburetor-blog.com/holley-1904-carburetor/

Lots of good stuff there and some videos. Also, just down a ways is a link to the 1904 Manual that was also referenced on the other thread from the Old Car Manual Project but this is a combined .pdf.

I would also agree Not to use direct manifold vacuum on the dizzy and just from the carb. The Load O Matics are very sensitive to LOW vacuum. It ranges from:
"1956 223 6 (1955 pretty much the same)
Distributor Vacuum Advance Data:
at 300 RPM: 0 - 1/2, Inches vacuum: .18
at 400 RPM: 1/4 - 1-1/4, Inches vacuum: .32
at 500 RPM: 1-3/4 - 2-3/4, Inches vacuum: .50
at 1200 RPM: 8 - 9-1/4, Inches vacuum: 2.59
at 1600 RPM: 10-3/4 - 11-3/4, Inches vacuum: 4.22
at 2000 RPM: 13 - 14-1/2, Inches vacuum: 6.00"
That is of course dizzy RPM so twice that for engine RPM.

The only way the springs for the vacuum advance can be accurately adjusted is on a Sun Distributor Machine that also has a Manometer accessory because the standard vacuum gauge on the Sun DT is not calibrated that precise at low vacuum.

HTH
Jim

Welcome to the board Jim & can you expand on the above information? I don't understand what (for instance) 13-14 1/2, inches vacuum:6.oo" means or the 4.22 above it.
The manometer accessory is interesting to me as well.

[Jimz Bird]

Originally Posted by oj

Welcome to the board Jim & can you expand on the above information? I don't understand what (for instance) 13-14 1/2, inches vacuum:6.oo" means or the 4.22 above it.
The manometer accessory is interesting to me as well.

Thanks for the Welcome.

It has to do with the vacuum generated by the engine or in the case of a Sun Distributor Tester how much vacuum is used to check the vacuum advance.
On a 57 Y that has both centrifugal advance and vacuum advance the vacuum is not set as precise as on the 56 Y which only uses small amounts of vacuum. That applies to all Load O Matic style dizzies regardless of the # of cylinders.
A couple of examples would be:
On a 56 312 Y, all advance is Vacuum
At 300 Distributor RPM: Advance would be 0 - 1/2 degrees at .16 Inches of vacuum. Note that is "point" 16.
At 400 Distributor RPM: Advance would be 0-1 degrees at .29 Inches vacuum.
On up at 800 RPM: 5-1/2 - 6-1/2 degrees at Inches vacuum: .88
at 1200 RPM: 8-1/2 - 9-1/2 degrees at Inches vacuum: 1.27
at 1600 RPM: 11 - 12 degrees at Inches vacuum: 1.73
at 2000 RPM: 13 - 14-1/2 degrees at Inches vacuum: 2.19
Very little vacuum is need to advance the breaker plate.

Now a 57 312 Y Vacuum Advance only is set at a constant Dizzy RPM of 1000. Centrifugal of course changes as RPM changes.
With the Sun DT at 1,000 Distributor RPM.
There will be 0-1 degrees of advance 5 inches of vacuum.
There will be 5-7 degrees of advance 10 inches of vacuum.
There will be 11-13 degrees of advance 15 inches of vacuum.
There will be 11-13 degrees of advance 20 inches of vacuum.

Note the profound difference. The 56 advance is 13 at 2.19 inches and the 57 is 13 at 15 inches. Those are all stock Shop Manual #'s. Depending on the dizzy - springs, washers or an allen wrench can be used to adjust or curve the vacuum advance.

Here is a pic of the Vacuum gauge on the DT 506 and also a Sun Manometer.
Note how the Vacuum gauge is marked off up to 6 inches and then note the Manometer is much more accurate for just the 2 inches shown in the pic. It is not impossible to set the vacuum advance - adjust the springs - on the LoadOs with just the vacuum gauge but the Manometer allows it to be more precise. Hard to do on a running engine with a standard vacuum gauge.
Manometers are filled with water, mercury, or "Sun Manometer Fluid". Depending on the specific gravity of the fluid determines how the Manometer is calibrated and how tall it is. Water is 1 and Mercury is 13.56.

HTH and does not take the thread too far off course but it does address the original question pertaining to the distributor and why pure manifold vacuum should not be used with a LoadO dizzy.

Jim

[oj]

Great explanation Jim. This is worthy of its' own thread, a LoadOMatic tech thread. I bet we all have tech questions, I have, would you consider starting a proper thread as we have hijacked My55's all to hell and gone.
thanks again.

[Dobie Gillis]

What this all says is that your odds of getting a Loado dizzy set up properly for your particular application are somewhere between slim and none without access to a Sun machine and the expertise to use it. I always considered the Loadomatic system one of those ideas that looked good on paper but that usually fell short when the rubber met the road.