solenoid with start button

[48fordnut]

Anyone know what brand, or where to get a ford starter solenoid with the button on the bottom for bumping the eng over?

Thanks,

jim

[Tinker]

There is a few floating and sitting in drawers somewhere. You can always hop the soleniod with screwdriver in a pinch.


Quick google search. Don't like the look of this one personally.
https://www.cjponyparts.com/starter-...oaAnMDEALw_wcB

[petehoovie]

Dennis Carpenter > https://www.dennis-carpenter.com/car...olenoid-switch

Starter Solenoid - 1937-51 Ford Truck, 1937-48 Ford Car

Part #: 01A-11450

Features:
• Metal Casing with Ford Script
• With push button for under hood starting
• 6 Volt - mounts on firewall

[leon bee]

My NAPA can get em in one day, Echlin. Part# should be on their website.

[leon bee]

I guess it's their ECH ST53.

[Big Red 51]

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Leon, I think the ST 58 is for Negative ground only. ST 53 is the one for Positive ground. I found this out the hard way when NAPA thru the wrong one in the bag when I needed one (ST53) for positive ground on '49 PU. Of course I couldn't return it. The ST58 was made for some small Nash/AMC cars that were 6 Volt. 58 was made in Asia and 53 was made in Mexico with no ST number stamped on them only 6V, back in June 2020.
Don

[1931 flamingo]

Joe's Antique, C&G to name a few.
I got one at NAPPA (Echline?), no good.
FWIW
Paul in CT

[Pech33]

Make sure you take it out of gear before you push the button. Scare the crap out of you if you don't!

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Big Red 51

Leon, I think the ST 53 is for Negative ground only.
Don

I don't think solenoids are polarity sensitive.

[GB SISSON]

I think some make their connection when the small wire is negative, and the others when the small wire is positive. I'm no electrician, just my observation when testing them.

[drolston]

One of the handiest tools around my garage is the remote starter button, which clips to the terminals of the starter solenoid. Like to chank the engine while checking for a spark from coil or plug wire. Or running a compression test. Or testing for fuel pump output. Better than the solenoid with a button, because you can activate it from any place around the front end.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

I don't think solenoids are polarity sensitive.

I surely can NOT imagine any reason why a solenoid would be polarity sensitive. That coil is only wanting to complete a circuit. DD

.

[JayChicago]

Doesn't the pull-in coil need the electrons flowing in the correct direction to make the magnetic action pull the correct way? If polarity reversed, wouldn't the coil try to pull the other way?

EDIT:
Just thought of something: My wash machine uses solenoid water valves, and its running on alternating current, electrons flowing both ways. So I guess a solenoid coil does not care about positive/negative.

[Tim Ayers]

6 or 12V? If 6V, I have a brand new Standard in the box that I can get the part number off of if you're interested. It has the starting button

[cas3]

I use an original ford unit, now on 12v neg ground, works fine. I did learn though, they need to be mounted so that gravity can not help hold the circuit closed or they will stick on occasionally.

[Lawson Cox]

Originally Posted by cas3

I use an original ford unit, now on 12v neg ground, works fine. I did learn though, they need to be mounted so that gravity can not help hold the circuit closed or they will stick on occasionally.

Yeah, he "mechanic's button" goes on the bottom.

[cas3]

Correct Lawson !

[koates]

The starter solenoids we use in our old cars will certainly work for both negative ground or positive ground. Some types however have differing internal connections for different wiring hook ups. The two types shown in posts #2 & #3 are the early Ford type with the button which are normally mounted with the button underneath, but would work in any position. Pity some incorrect information has already been posted on here, Regards, Kevin.

[GB SISSON]

Well, this is quite timely for me. About 5 minutes ago I had made up the battery cables and put a 12v battery (and negative grounded)in my newly fabricated battery tray. I had the solenoid with a button (looks like a repro style of original) mounted to the firewall. The small terminal on the solenoid is labled 'battery'. I jumpered a hot wire from the battery positive terminal to that small post and nothing. I then jumped a wire from the grounded chassis and off she spun. I know very little of electrons and such so it is all trial and error with me. I guess I will keep it this way.

[koates]

GB, Yes all the early Ford V8 solenoids require the small terminal to be grounded through the starter button to the metal on the dash panel. Yours is correct for a Ford V8. There are many other types of wiring hook up solenoid types with different terminals. Regards, Kevin.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by koates

GB, Yes all the early Ford V8 solenoids require the small terminal to be grounded through the starter button to the metal on the dash panel. Yours is correct for a Ford V8. There are many other types of wiring hook up solenoid types with different terminals. Regards, Kevin.

It came from a drawer I have labled 'battery terms'. I could have bought it 30 years ago. With regard to electricity, every now and then I get something right. Thank you.

[cas3]

Just remember, after the smoke escapes, the part in question won't work anymore

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by cas3

Just remember, after the smoke escapes, the part in question won't work anymore

Yeah, but that is why they make this "Refill Smoke", so you can re-use burnt-up stuff. DD

[Tim Ayers]

Standard part # SS558. You can get them at Rock Auto

[48fordnut]

Thanks for all the comments.

Coopman, I had to steal your pic to go with my blinker fluid pic.

Thanks,

jim

[tubman]

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The example DD shows is the best brand, as well. Don't go with the cheap "Delco" stuff.

[48fordnut]

This board almost makes you want to get up in the mornings.

This application is for a model a speedster. I want to do away with the floor push starter.

Thanks,

jim

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Yeah, but that is why they make this "Refill Smoke", so you can re-use burnt-up stuff.

Now that's good! Wasn't it Lucas that developed intermittent headlights?

[tubman]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Now that's good! Wasn't it Lucas that developed intermittent headlights?

Yep. They also developed the pre-blown fuse.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

Yep. They also developed the pre-blown fuse.

Lucas was known as "The Prince of Darkness". For a list of ALL of his accomplishments, click the link BELOW! DD


https://www.hermit.cc/tmc/humor/lucas.htm

.

[GB SISSON]

In keeping with the OPs question, I guess we can all agree "Just don't buy a lucas solenoid". Today's lesson in auto electrics class. Thanks DD

[48fordnut]

What a lesson.


Thanks,

jim

[koates]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

In keeping with the OPs question, I guess we can all agree "Just don't buy a lucas solenoid". Today's lesson in auto electrics class. Thanks DD

No, we cant all agree. Nothing wrong with Lucas solenoids. Its the China ones to be beware of. Regards, Kevin.

[48fordnut]

I saw where someone had mounted a solenoid on top of a model a starter and attached the terminal with a bus bar.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by koates

No, we cant all agree. Nothing wrong with Lucas solenoids. Its the China ones to be beware of. Regards, Kevin.

OK, point well taken. Lord help us if we ever made fun of the Chinese and their auto parts. Why do the Chinese drive a.......?

[Tinker]

Well not to be the bummer guy, but the minute we stop buying everything from china is the first time we can complain about it. They make a ton of stuff for us, as they have cheap labor and don't care about their environment (well or their people). But we buy it!


Going to wally world tomorrow.


You could probably find an old original if you put an add here or look on ebay. They rarely ever go bad and are not rare.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by 48fordnut

I saw where someone had mounted a solenoid on top of a model a starter and attached the terminal with a bus bar.

That was actually an accessory you could buy back when, made by Wells. Remove foot starter switch and screw onto starter.

Originally Posted by cas3

Just remember, after the smoke escapes, the part in question won't work anymore

For our Model As we use Genuine Ford Replacement Smoke made specifically for Model As, but it may work in later Fords also That have cloth covered wires.

[cas3]

Cool !!

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by drolston

One of the handiest tools around my garage is the remote starter button, which clips to the terminals of the starter solenoid. Like to chank the engine while checking for a spark from coil or plug wire. Or running a compression test. Or testing for fuel pump output. Better than the solenoid with a button, because you can activate it from any place around the front end.

I got one when I had a yblock on a run stand. Nice little slick tool. As I mentioned previously you can actually do this with a screwdriver too. Just kind of crude.

[Big Red 51]

From my earlier thread; RE the Echlin ST-58 NAPA gave me that would not work on my '49 Ford positive ground PU which as I know, requires the ST-53. If solenoids are not polarity sensitive, then the New Asian made Eichlin solenoid ST-58 must of been just faulty. Only difference I could tell was the ST-58 had a bakealite case and the 53 a metal case from Mexico. An interesting thread in any event. Don

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Big Red 51

From my earlier thread; RE the Echlin ST-58 NAPA gave me that would not work on my '49 Ford positive ground PU which as I know, requires the ST-53. If solenoids are not polarity sensitive, then the New Asian made Eichlin solenoid ST-58 must of been just faulty. Only difference I could tell was the ST-58 had a bakealite case and the 53 a metal case from Mexico. An interesting thread in any event. Don

If you still believe that solenoids are polarity-sensitive, then can you PLEASE explain why old Ford solenoids still work when guys change their old Fords over to 12v, NEG Ground? DD

.

[Bob C]

The ST-53 has an insulated base and the ST-58 has a grounded base.
The ST-58 is for the later Fords with the key start.

[tubman]

The older solenoids that work by grounding the circuit to start may seem to be "polarity-sensitive", but they're really not. They must be hooked up so the activation terminal is "hot". The cable from the battery and the cable to the starter must be hooked up to the proper terminals or they won't work. Also, there are some solenoids that have different size terminals for the battery and starter, but tha' s just a convention, and has nothing to do with polarity either.

[v8fordman]

I have all of the tools to rebuild those old starter solenoids. Back in the 80's and 90's when restorations of our old Fords were at their peak, finding the correct one...especially one that worked necessitated a rebuild. In my notes, I can tell you how many revolutions of wire are necessary and which direction the coils were wound in. I could (still can, but don't do it anymore) convert 12v ones to 6v and vice-versa. I would dis-assemble them, have the cases cadmium plated (which is hard to do now), reassemble with new insulators and press the bottom cap back on. If you want to really get technical, original Ford solenoids (when they first appeared in 1937) had their mounting straps with either Ford script or RBM stamped on them. The rivet holding the plunger stop in the upper case was also different. For those who argue 6v versus 12v...6v wiring is heavier than 12v so a 6v solenoid can handle 12volts but not the other way around. My observation back then was that the solenoid is just a small electromagnet. I assure you that the wires from the coil are insulated at the small terminal on the front and the battery terminal on the side. The small terminal grounds when the starter button is pressed, completing a circuit which in turn creates a magnetic field (remember the science project where you wrapped a wire around a nail and hooked it to a battery). A brass disc is connected to a spring loaded plunger which moves upward (right hand rule of physics) causing a connection between the two brass terminals on the solenoid...the battery terminal (which is "hot" all the time) and the starter terminal which gets "hot" and engages the starter when the disc connects the two sides internally in the solenoid. The spring "disconnects the disc from the terminals when the ground circuit (magnetic) is broken. The solenoid's operation is just a basic principle of electricity and magnetism. They do fail occasionally because corrosion on the disc can create a bad connection, causing heat and cavitation on the brass disc or the wire may burn.

To repair one, all you need to do is take it apart, flip the disc over, rotate the brass terminals and you have a basically new solenoid. Getting the can apart and the bottom back together is the secret though.

[cas3]

Very interesting, thanks

[v8fordman]

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Originally Posted by 48fordnut

Anyone know what brand, or where to get a ford starter solenoid with the button on the bottom for bumping the eng over?

Thanks,

jim

Do you still need one? Email me at [email protected]

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by v8fordman

Do you still need one? Email me at [email protected]

Good on you for being a guy that can rebuild them. More and more over time we will have to rely on these services.


Not you v8fordman, The earlier claim of polarized solenoids is interesting. It's a simple coil device that only cares about how it's wired, it has no internal power or creates power. It response to positive and negative forces only.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Tinker

It's a simple coil device that only cares about how it's wired, it has no internal power or creates power. It response to positive and negative forces only.

Well, not really! It responds to introducing ANY pathway to GROUND for the coil, whether POS or NEG. DD

.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Well, not really! It responds to introducing ANY pathway to GROUND for the coil, whether POS or NEG. DD

.

hahahaha... depending on how it's wired! It's not polarized to a certain current flow.


It's funny how you disagree with me while agreeing. hahaha

[Merc Cruzer]

The car is a stock 1953 Mercury with a 6 volt , positive ground system.

Okay, why doesn't it work?! I too wanted to have the starter solenoid with the button.

I have now bought two (thinking that the original one was faulty, and you all know, if you buy an electrical part, it is not returnable. The first one I bought from NAPA (ST53), the second one I bought from O'Reilly's (SS558). When I called Standard, I was assured both would work. My understanding is that these should swap out directly.

I have attached pictures of the original factory Ford solenoid, installed (with one screw, the reason it is at an angle) and working, in the car. I have placed one of the new ones below it. I installed the new solenoids, with the same wire configuration, as on the factory solenoid above it. When you get in the car, put the shiftier in neutral, turn on the ignition switch and hit the starter button, you get absolutely nothing but silence.

The factory solenoid is currently in the car and works perfectly.

What am I doing wrong?

Thank you in advance, for your input.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

The car is a stock 1953 Mercury with a 6 volt , positive ground system.

Okay, why doesn't it work?! I too wanted to have the starter solenoid with the button.

I have now bought two (thinking that the original one was faulty, and you all know, if you buy an electrical part, it is not returnable. The first one I bought from NAPA (ST53), the second one I bought from O'Reilly's (SS558). When I called Standard, I was assured both would work. My understanding is that these should swap out directly.

I have attached pictures of the original factory Ford solenoid, installed (with one screw, the reason it is at an angle) and working, in the car. I have placed one of the new ones below it. I installed the new solenoids, with the same wire configuration, as on the factory solenoid above it. When you get in the car, put the shiftier in neutral, turn on the ignition switch and hit the starter button, you get absolutely nothing but silence.

The factory solenoid is currently in the car and works perfectly.

What am I doing wrong?

Thank you in advance, for your input.

A couple of things first....Are you sure that your BATTERY cable and the other small POWER wires are connected to the proper of the two LARGE lugs? Note how the BAT terminal is marked on the side of this old solenoid.




If NOT hooked to the proper lug, the START mode will not operate. If not marked on the solenoid, you can check which is the BAT terminal with an ohm meter. Look at the diagram below. As can be seen in drawing, the BAT terminal will be common with (connected) the SMALL terminal going to the STARTER Button.





With your DVM set to OHMS, place your two leads across the small pole in center and on one of the LARGE posts. Whichever LARGE post shows continuity with the SMALL post, that LARGE post goes to BATTERY. DD


.

[Merc Cruzer]

Thanks for asking: "Are you sure that your BATTERY cable and the other small POWER wires are connected to the proper of the two LARGE lugs? Note how the BAT terminal is marked on the side of this old solenoid."Yes, when I hooked them up, the battery cable, is hooked to the terminal marked "BAT".

I normally use a jumper cable, to bump the engine over.

Good suggestion: The multi-meter test you recommend, confirmed continuity, with the post marked "BAT" and the small center post, is the one correct one.

[Merc Cruzer]

One thing I have noticed, is that the factory/Ford solenoid, has continuity between the small post and the frame/mounting bracket, of the solenoid, where as the new ones do not.

[cas3]

Thats odd, if its grounded, it would trigger the starter instead of you grounding it with the button

[tubman]

It sounds to me like someone changed your car to use the other type of solenoid (non-grounding) before you got it.

[marko39]

if applying power instead of ground to the small terminal makes it work it is the wrong solenoid. this happened to me.

[Merc Cruzer]

Sorry but this will be a long one, but I will attempt to document the answers to the prior questions with pictures. I find they explain the findings better than words.

I am posting pictures (#1-3) of the book part number (FAB 11450-B) for the solenoid, the part number stamped on the solenoid (showing it is the correct part for the car). Other pictures show the multimeter continuity readings when the solenoid is in the car and the test:

1. (last picture) is between the small terminal and the mounting screw
2. (picture #7) small terminal and the left post (going to the battery). By the way the
case is not marked battery on either side/post, no continuity.
3. (picture # 6) small terminal and the right post (to the starter),no continuity.
4. (picture #4 ) small post and continuity to the mounting bracket
5. (picture #5) showing the multimeter is working correctly.

I am open for suggestions, for any other readings, tests or pictures, any of you may have, to explain the situation. Another point, is on the new ones, the small post is isolated from the mounting bracket. One final point, when I had one of the new ones mounted and wired in the car, the jumper wire I normally use to bump the motor over, hooked between the small post and the battery post did not work. When I pushed on the button, on the solenoid, it turned the motor over, but stuck on, so I had to disconnect the battery cable, to disconnect it.

This solenoid, works perfectly in the car.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Jack E/NJ]

tubman>>>It sounds to me like someone changed your car to use the other type of solenoid (non-grounding) before you got it.>>>


Agreed. Prolly 2 wires on the back of the starter button. One hot and one to the small solenoid terminal.

[Merc Cruzer]

I just contacted Standard Brand, help desk (718) 392-0200 and they informed me that the solenoid needs to be a non insulated base. Their part number is SS571. They do not make one, with an external button, for my car. So, it is back to the jumper cable, that I got from my Dad, which makes it well over 80 years old.

It has been interesting.

https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog?year=1953

[Jack E/NJ]

No jumper needed. Just connect a small momentary push button switch between the solenoid's hot terminal & its small terminal. That's all I do with a grounded base solenoid.

[Merc Cruzer]

On the upside, it gave me a chance to clean up the original solenoid. That is always a good thing.

[v8fordman]

I can guarantee you that the diagram that V8COOPMAN provided in post 51 is exactly the way original solenoids are wired. What is depicted in blue is what I described as the plunger and brass disc and when the stater button on the dash grounds, the electrical circuit is completed and the magnetic field is created causing the disc to engage both of the large terminals. Also, no one has pictured an original ‘37 yet. They were 1/4” taller than those posted and had a brass cap which screwed onto the bottom and covered the push button (which is the bottom of the plunger).

[cas3]

Wow ! so they were made to be serviceable ?

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by v8fordman

I can guarantee you that the diagram that V8COOPMAN provided in post 51 is exactly the way original solenoids are wired. What is depicted in blue is what I described as the plunger and brass disc and when the stater button on the dash grounds, the electrical circuit is completed and the magnetic field is created causing the disc to engage both of the large terminals. Also, no one has pictured an original ‘37 yet. They were 1/4” taller than those posted and had a brass cap which screwed onto the bottom and covered the push button (which is the bottom of the plunger).

Could you post a picture of a original 37' solenoid, for reference please?

I see a new post, involving the solenoid for a 30's Coupe, has started:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=309877

Thank you,

[Tinker]

Glad you got it figured out and it is a great thing there are re-builders.


It's a fairly simple through point with an opposite pole coil.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRlRinL-N-8

[v8fordman]

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Here are pictures of almost every solenoid you could have encountered back in the day.
Top row: (1) original ‘37 style solenoids with the screw on brass cap. (2) AutoLite replacements that appear to be exactly as original Ford. (3) Original showing RBM on the mounting bracket.
Bottom row: (1) different versions of the second generation of solenoids. Notice the bottom left has a screw on cap. (2) picture of the third generation. (3) comparison picture showing the difference in the size of the housings. 2 3/4” versus 2 1/2”

Note: My personal belief is that the first solenoids were the tall ones with a screw on cap. Next came the shorter version with a screw on cap. These were followed by the shorter ones with a button you could engage the starter but no cap. Finally, the last version had a depression in the bottom cap but you could not manually engage the starter. All versions are seen in these pictures.

[v8fordman]

Here are a few more pictures of solenoids and “stuff “. First picture shows all the parts of a solenoid. Second picture is of parts including a box of the brass caps. The last picture shows a tractor and a 1942 solenoid. They both look exactly the same to me except the part number stamped on top.

[Merc Cruzer]

Nice collection. Thanks for posting.

[48fordnut]

This has been a real education.

Thanks,

jim

[CRAIGTERRY]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Well, this is quite timely for me. About 5 minutes ago I had made up the battery cables and put a 12v battery (and negative grounded)in my newly fabricated battery tray. I had the solenoid with a button (looks like a repro style of original) mounted to the firewall. The small terminal on the solenoid is labled 'battery'. I jumpered a hot wire from the battery positive terminal to that small post and nothing. I then jumped a wire from the grounded chassis and off she spun. I know very little of electrons and such so it is all trial and error with me. I guess I will keep it this way.

Trying to wire a remote switch on my 36 with a floor starter button. Sounds like I need to alligator clip the negative wire to the battery side of solenoid and attach the other clip to the positive ground (frame). Is this right?

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by CRAIGTERRY

Trying to wire a remote switch on my 36 with a floor starter button. Sounds like I need to alligator clip the negative wire to the battery side of solenoid and attach the other clip to the positive ground (frame). Is this right?

If you have a floor starter switch you probably don't have a solenoid.
The 36 switch is a manual switch you have to push to energize. Pretty hard to hook a remote to it.
Bill

[Jack E/NJ]

>>>Sounds like I need to alligator clip the negative wire to the battery side of solenoid and attach the other clip to the positive ground (frame). Is this right?>>>


NO! The other clip would create a dead short from the battery negative to the battery positive via the frame.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by cas3

Thats odd, if its grounded, it would trigger the starter instead of you grounding it with the button

Yep, the entire system is isolated from the mounting points and case. Two through poles/posts (the same + or -) with one momentary coil effected by a different small post/pole (opposite of the large through poles) current to connect them. A Very simple system.