The Ford Barn

Joe AZ · 03-10-2012, 12:55 PM

OK, I'm taking the engine apart on my stock '40 motor, except for adjustable lifters. I've read all the threads about the issues removing the "mushroom" valves. I'm running into the same problem of the guides not moving down far enough to pull the horseshoe clips.
I'm assuming there will be some damage incurred if I get the valves / guides out of the block.
Is there any reason I can't update the valve train to the newer style one piece guides and straight stem valves when I put it back together again?
Thanks for your help,
Joe

Mr 42 · 03-10-2012, 01:01 PM

No!

Joe AZ · 03-10-2012, 02:12 PM

Update.......I tried prying the spring up from the bottom to expose the valve spring retainer, thinking I'd release the valve spring.
Surprise - retainers don't have the slot that I've seen in all of the photos and drawings, to remove it from the valve stem. It's a solid piece, all the way around. How could this be possible? I don't see a way that the assembly can be disassembled.....
Joe

Walt Dupont--Me. · 03-10-2012, 02:25 PM

Hey Joe, look again, it does have a slot in the botom spring retainer if you have the stock mushroom valves. If you have straight stem valves they are the 8BA style. I use the 8BA style valve train in all myb engines. Walt

Barry WNY · 03-10-2012, 02:31 PM

No, there's aslot in the retainer, got to get it up the stem farther and I use a magnet to snag them off there. I had the parts to do my LB to the later setup, I chose not to but won't bother with the Mushrooms agian when I have a choice, easier and cheaper.

Jack E/NJ · 03-10-2012, 03:14 PM

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Yep, the slot's gotta be there Joe. It's probably turned toward the block and hidden from your view. As Barry said, you gotta somehow coax & wiggle the retainer off the mushroom up to the skinnier part of the stem so its slot will clear the stem. Sometimes easier said than done with only one pair of hands. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

Joe AZ · 03-10-2012, 03:50 PM

Have to knock off for the day, but sure didn't see it. I was able to rotate what I thought was the retainer with a dental pick, and didn't see it on the back side either. Tried with a couple of valves. I'll get on it again in the morning.
And yes, they are mushroom valve tips.
Joe

Mart · 03-10-2012, 04:03 PM

If they are mushroom valves, there must be slots. It would be impossible to assemble them otherwise.
If definitely no slots, then they cannot be mushroom valves.
Hint: The keepers with slots also have two flats on them.

Mart.

Ronnie · 03-10-2012, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe AZ

Have to knock off for the day, but sure didn't see it. I was able to rotate what I thought was the retainer with a dental pick, and didn't see it on the back side either. Tried with a couple of valves. I'll get on it again in the morning.
And yes, they are mushroom valve tips.
Joe

Mushroom valves can only be assembled with slotted retainer,and must have split guides. That's all she wrote. No other options.

Jack E/NJ · 03-10-2012, 05:42 PM

Joe>>>I was able to rotate what I thought was the retainer with a dental pick, and didn't see it on the back side either.>>>

That's because the slot is prolly filled in with motor sludge. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

Mr 42 · 03-11-2012, 12:20 AM

It looks like this.

blown49 · 03-11-2012, 04:28 PM

If you go to the following thread and post #12 you'll find a PDF file of drawings of the various valves and associated components. On the '34 drawing you will see a drawing of the lower spring retainer/lock for the mushroom tippe valves. Notice that 2 sides of the retainer are flat and parallel. One end of a pickle fork shoud be wide enought to span the parallel sides of the reatiner but still catch the sides of the spring. Rotate the valve so that the straight sides are vertical, compress the spring with the pickle fork and grab the lower spring retainer with a pair of long nose pliers, pull it up above the mushroom tip and pull straight out.

http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13836

The other alternative is to drive the split guide down, remove the horseshoe clip and pull the complete assembly out the top,

Jim

Andy · 03-11-2012, 05:21 PM

He might have 51 style locks and retainer. The valve retainer will come up and be solid with no gap. The big tapered valve locks may be stuck to the valves and look like a mushroom valve.

Joe AZ · 03-11-2012, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy

He might have 51 style locks and retainer. The valve retainer will come up and be solid with no gap. The big tapered valve locks may be stuck to the valves and look like a mushroom valve.

Andy, you hit the nail on the head..........duh...............
Actually, Blown 49's post got me looking at other options and I saw the '51 - '53 exploded drawing. Checked it out and it's exactly what the drawing showed. I'd never worked with this style of valve before in a flathead. And yes, I thought it was a mushroom valve. Attached is what I was seeing.
Thanks so much to everyone who responded to my question. There's nothing you can't find out with the wealth of knowledge that's represented on this forum.

AlDeBear · 03-11-2012, 05:55 PM

"...................................There's nothing you can't find out with the wealth of knowledge that's represented on this forum." WOW! Just 30 hours from presentation of the problem to solution. That does indeed represent "a wealth of knowledge"! AMAZING! You are on your way now Joe.

Larry

Mart · 03-12-2012, 03:42 AM

You're lucky. Those type of valve assemblies are much easier to remove if the guides are stuck.

Remove the keepers, remove the valve, tap the guide down, remove the horseshoe clip, push the whole lot out through the top.

A lot less messing about than mushroom type valves.

Just a thought - if someone fitted adjustable lifters and later valves, thay may have fitted a hotter cam too.

Mart.

Joe AZ · 03-12-2012, 08:48 AM

Yes, I got all of the valves out yesterday, but am now soaking the guides before I drive them out.
Question........at the top of the springs, between the springs and guide, there is copper washer like piece, with small teeth / grooves in it. What is it's purpose? These aren't the "rotators" I've heard about on later engines, are they?
Joe

flatjack9 · 03-12-2012, 09:28 AM

It is a spring shim. Used to adjust spring height for proper pressure at installed height.

Mart · 03-12-2012, 10:43 AM

Another sign that the engine has been "built" rather than just assembled.

Maybe a decent cam in it.

Make sure you keep all the components in the proper order for reassembly.

Mart.

Joe AZ · 03-12-2012, 07:52 PM

Thanks guys.........appreciate all of the help.

Joe

03-10-2012, 01:01 PM	#2
Mr 42 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sweden Posts: 427	Re: '40 Valve Removal No!

03-10-2012, 02:12 PM	#3
Joe AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Prescott, WI Posts: 336	Re: '40 Valve Removal Update.......I tried prying the spring up from the bottom to expose the valve spring retainer, thinking I'd release the valve spring. Surprise - retainers don't have the slot that I've seen in all of the photos and drawings, to remove it from the valve stem. It's a solid piece, all the way around. How could this be possible? I don't see a way that the assembly can be disassembled..... Joe

03-10-2012, 02:25 PM	#4
Walt Dupont--Me. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gardiner Me. Posts: 4,200	Re: '40 Valve Removal Hey Joe, look again, it does have a slot in the botom spring retainer if you have the stock mushroom valves. If you have straight stem valves they are the 8BA style. I use the 8BA style valve train in all myb engines. Walt

03-10-2012, 02:31 PM	#5
Barry WNY Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sinclairville NY Posts: 230	Re: '40 Valve Removal No, there's aslot in the retainer, got to get it up the stem farther and I use a magnet to snag them off there. I had the parts to do my LB to the later setup, I chose not to but won't bother with the Mushrooms agian when I have a choice, easier and cheaper.

03-10-2012, 03:14 PM	#6
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: '40 Valve Removal Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Yep, the slot's gotta be there Joe. It's probably turned toward the block and hidden from your view. As Barry said, you gotta somehow coax & wiggle the retainer off the mushroom up to the skinnier part of the stem so its slot will clear the stem. Sometimes easier said than done with only one pair of hands. 8^) Jack E/NJ

03-10-2012, 12:55 PM	#1
Joe AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Prescott, WI Posts: 336	'40 Valve Removal OK, I'm taking the engine apart on my stock '40 motor, except for adjustable lifters. I've read all the threads about the issues removing the "mushroom" valves. I'm running into the same problem of the guides not moving down far enough to pull the horseshoe clips. I'm assuming there will be some damage incurred if I get the valves / guides out of the block. Is there any reason I can't update the valve train to the newer style one piece guides and straight stem valves when I put it back together again? Thanks for your help, Joe

03-10-2012, 03:50 PM	#7
Joe AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Prescott, WI Posts: 336	Re: '40 Valve Removal Have to knock off for the day, but sure didn't see it. I was able to rotate what I thought was the retainer with a dental pick, and didn't see it on the back side either. Tried with a couple of valves. I'll get on it again in the morning. And yes, they are mushroom valve tips. Joe

03-10-2012, 04:03 PM	#8
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: '40 Valve Removal If they are mushroom valves, there must be slots. It would be impossible to assemble them otherwise. If definitely no slots, then they cannot be mushroom valves. Hint: The keepers with slots also have two flats on them. Mart.

03-10-2012, 05:42 PM	#10
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: '40 Valve Removal Joe>>>I was able to rotate what I thought was the retainer with a dental pick, and didn't see it on the back side either.>>> That's because the slot is prolly filled in with motor sludge. 8^) Jack E/NJ Last edited by Jack E/NJ; 03-10-2012 at 06:23 PM.

03-11-2012, 04:28 PM	#12
blown49 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: West Union, Ohio Posts: 113	Re: '40 Valve Removal If you go to the following thread and post #12 you'll find a PDF file of drawings of the various valves and associated components. On the '34 drawing you will see a drawing of the lower spring retainer/lock for the mushroom tippe valves. Notice that 2 sides of the retainer are flat and parallel. One end of a pickle fork shoud be wide enought to span the parallel sides of the reatiner but still catch the sides of the spring. Rotate the valve so that the straight sides are vertical, compress the spring with the pickle fork and grab the lower spring retainer with a pair of long nose pliers, pull it up above the mushroom tip and pull straight out. http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13836 The other alternative is to drive the split guide down, remove the horseshoe clip and pull the complete assembly out the top, Jim __________________ Visit my Blown '49 Merc website @ http://www.blown49.com

03-11-2012, 05:21 PM	#13
Andy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kerrville, Tx Posts: 2,771	Re: '40 Valve Removal He might have 51 style locks and retainer. The valve retainer will come up and be solid with no gap. The big tapered valve locks may be stuck to the valves and look like a mushroom valve.

03-11-2012, 05:55 PM	#15
AlDeBear Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Mountain Home, AR Posts: 106	Re: '40 Valve Removal "...................................There's nothing you can't find out with the wealth of knowledge that's represented on this forum." WOW! Just 30 hours from presentation of the problem to solution. That does indeed represent "a wealth of knowledge"! AMAZING! You are on your way now Joe. Larry

03-12-2012, 03:42 AM	#16
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: '40 Valve Removal You're lucky. Those type of valve assemblies are much easier to remove if the guides are stuck. Remove the keepers, remove the valve, tap the guide down, remove the horseshoe clip, push the whole lot out through the top. A lot less messing about than mushroom type valves. Just a thought - if someone fitted adjustable lifters and later valves, thay may have fitted a hotter cam too. Mart.

03-12-2012, 08:48 AM	#17
Joe AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Prescott, WI Posts: 336	Re: '40 Valve Removal Yes, I got all of the valves out yesterday, but am now soaking the guides before I drive them out. Question........at the top of the springs, between the springs and guide, there is copper washer like piece, with small teeth / grooves in it. What is it's purpose? These aren't the "rotators" I've heard about on later engines, are they? Joe

03-12-2012, 09:28 AM	#18
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: '40 Valve Removal It is a spring shim. Used to adjust spring height for proper pressure at installed height.

03-12-2012, 10:43 AM	#19
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: '40 Valve Removal Another sign that the engine has been "built" rather than just assembled. Maybe a decent cam in it. Make sure you keep all the components in the proper order for reassembly. Mart.

03-12-2012, 07:52 PM	#20
Joe AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Prescott, WI Posts: 336	Re: '40 Valve Removal Thanks guys.........appreciate all of the help. Joe