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Old 11-19-2019, 03:42 PM   #1
Mart
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Default For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Just how hard is it to fit a sleeve? What is the procedure? The crusty flatty I have just acquired probably needs a sleeve. I have a boring bar but have never used it. I was thinking of trying to bore the cylinders but the one needs to go way oversize to clean up. It might, repeat might, clean up at +.125, but I would need to take much more careful measurements before that would be even on the cards.

My preferred route would be to bore the seven cylinders to the first oversize at which they would clean up, and then sleeve the bad one to match.

Any pointers? or is this just something that is best farmed out??

Mart.
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Old 11-19-2019, 04:34 PM   #2
J Franklin
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

I bought a car once (55 Chev) that had 1 cylinder with a larger piston, It wasn't noticeable (but just maybe at idle).
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

I think your plan is fine, but the fact that you have a boring bar that you've never used doesn't give me a lot of confidence that you should try it on this block that you've already got a lot of time into.

If it was me, I'd "practice" and get my technique, my tooling, etc. - all down on a scrap block -- before I'd try it on one that I actually want to keep. If you're trying to get this done, I'd take it to a shop and maybe ask if you could "hang around" and see the process end-to-end. Just my thoughts . . .
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Old 11-19-2019, 06:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

I have melling sleeves on the shelf if you need.
How much interference fit you want depends on if you´re going to use a sealer or not...
Old style is bore leave a notch in the bottom for the sleeve to stand on...pound it down with the BFH or press..cut it flush.
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Old 11-19-2019, 06:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

If I had a bar, I would likely try it at some point. A really good boring machine will keep better accuracy but it's been done with a boring bar many times I'm certain. If you have a junk block you might experiment some first.

A lot depends on the type of sleeve and thickness of wall needed. I have tools to drive the sleeves in the Ford tractors. They have the same bore as a flathead V8 but they are made for sleeves. Freezing the sleeve with dry ice can help since they usually just drop in with a .0015" to .002" interference fit but it also depends on whether the sleeve will have to hold coolant too (wet sleeve). Some surfaces need to remain clean for sealant if that's the case and freezing will lead to condense on the part during assembly. A wet sleeve would only be required if a person bores through the cylinder wall. Anaerobic sealant or epoxy adhesive like JB Weld or Scotch weld can be used for sealant but I don't know what you have in the UK. Epoxy is good to hold the deck a bit firmer on a flathead.

Sleeves can require a step being left at the bottom of the bore if there is still material there and there usually always is unless it has a broken spot down there. This will keep the sleeve from moving down any further. A person has to take care not to break it when driving the a sleeve the last bit if driving it is necessary. A hard wood block and a big hammer will seat a sleeve as far as it can go. A person can install it down to the last inch & a half or so by the dry ice method then let it equalize and clean it real well before sealing the top & bottom then drive it the rest of the way.

You only need to sleeve the one cylinder unless the cylinder walls are getting pretty thin on the others. You can even bore a sleeve a bit it it's not a real thin one.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-19-2019 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Thanks for the pointers fellas. I'm part way through getting the studs out. I'm not going to rush into anything. I do have a block that is definitely scrap due to extensive cracking. It is tied up right now, but once it becomes available, I'll try the boring bar and see how it turns out. If it goes well I just might try it for real on the 99 motor.

Thanks again, if and when I am ready to try it I'll ask for more specific boring help.

Mart.
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Good luck Mart. Hope it works out well.
Please make a video, if possible.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

I hope you made a video taking the studs out, I have about half of mine out, the block is in a portable garage, too cold to work out there now.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:18 AM   #9
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

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Originally Posted by corvette8n View Post
I hope you made a video taking the studs out, I have about half of mine out, the block is in a portable garage, too cold to work out there now.

I've just went through this with two blocks. I've tried a number of strategies.

Before anything, soak the studs in some type of rust buster a few times a day for as long as you can.

The mechanical process of getting the studs out was a two step process.

1) Heat the entire stud to cherry red with Oxy-Acetylene torch; especially the section close to the block. While cooling down, melt candle or bees wax at the base so it wicks down the threads. The theory is the heating (expanding) and the cooling (shrinking) breaks the bond of rust between the stud and the block.

2) After allowing it to cool down for a day, I've place an acetylene plumbers torch inside the holes for a water jackets and let that heat the bosses from the inside. I gently start to try to back out the studs with a stud puller of the studs near the torch. I move the torch down the line as I work.

This takes some experience to know when to use more force or to let the stud be for it's going to break. Sometimes you just get unlucky.

Be forewarned, one block took me 15 hours to remove all the studs.
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

I used a boring Bar to build all my engines (Van Norman 944). After the first coupla engines, the 75 lb bar had me completely warne out, it worked well, but movimg it around was a killer. Then I was shown a boring bench which holds the block and Bar at the same level and you only have to move te bar once during a V8 build. I also bought several too holders and numbered them so I didn't have to adjust for every cut. Whish I had some pics of this. Once I had the blocks bored I took them to a machine shop with the pistons and had the bores finished honed to fit. depending on the style of piston I was using. Most blocks were bored .125"
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Old 11-21-2019, 02:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Those old Per-Fect-O bars were pretty good units and especially the larger ones like that. Nice ones still sell for a good bit if the set is complete. The power honing generally trues up any imperfections for a final fit. I don't think honing would work for a sleeve due to the step at the bottom. A person just has to mind their adjustments of the bit pretty close and do the best that you can.
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
I don't think honing would work for a sleeve due to the step at the bottom. A person just has to mind their adjustments of the bit pretty close and do the best that you can.
You are correct, I've not seen a hone used prior to putting a sleeve in - for the reasons you just mentioned. This is why it is important to be able to hold good tolerances (and be accurate) if you're boring for a press-fit sleeve.
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Old 11-22-2019, 04:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

The problem most people have with installing sleeves is they use too much press.
Heating the block and cooling the sleeve is Mickey Mouse and not needed.
Many times I have watched people trying to install a sleeve, get it half way in and it stuck.
They had to cut it off, bore the stuck piece out and start over.

Metal to metal fit with glue is all you need. You should not need any bigger than a 3 lb hammer to drive it in. Seat it against the shoulder and let it sit for a couple hours. Then cut it off and bore it.

It is a good idea to have a helper when driving sleeves. I use a 6 inch round plate, 2 inches thick with an 18 inch handle welded on the side. The helper holds the driver plate in place to keep it from bouncing off and falling on the deck or other gasket surface with the resulting dink marks.
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:02 PM   #14
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Thanks for the replies fellas.

I need to put the crusty flatty on one side for a little while, but the time may come when I will actually try and do this.

Mart.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Way back in my school days, learning experience only, I bored several Briggs & Strat. lawnmower engines they were junk anyways. Did this on a mill with a boring head. All
went well cause my father has all the toys; like bore gauge,snap gauges, mics and most
of all the "black book". get this book off Ebay, you won't be sorry, they are cheap because
a person can not keep all this math in his / her head before 'meltdown': fast forward 50
yrs still doing this and still on the same mill 4cyl Model T and A's or any inline a snap.
Its the V8s of any make. So I Have to come up with a complicated jig (not yet) for V8
set up on the mill by that time I'd be 110yrs old. So a shop, a mile down the street 'we
work together'. I brought him a 59A with number 6 cyl. somebody went there with a die grinder the cyl wall looks like asphalt parking lot. I told them my plan. HERE is where the machinist hand book comes in. The 59A is 3 3/16 std bore, That, we know, next we
bored that to clean up measure & look in the book for sleeve size OD. Sleeves come in
various OD's and ID's. May have to tweek the bore for sleeve fitting with boring head,
after thats done and was measured & sleeve removed from the freezer and banged in, If
you got things right, a little tapping with 2lb hammer it will get to the bottom lip. Ain't
going to just fall in a little meat with the hammer when the cold & block temp equalize
thats staying Now mill off the top of the sleeve. Now with bore gauge measure all
cylinders write all down (includes ) tapers etc. Then come up with a number; example we will bore all 8 at .030 which means WE have one correct bore , thats the sleeve, and the rest 7 are worn with tapers ridges etc. So back to your question you need to measure + then plant the tree the (sleeve) I don't care what this new world says about
the final hone fitting ==BRING the new pistons. And the cost, that depends where you Live in or near Las Vegas common sense thats deep pockets there. Here east coast just
tire kickers. Bottom line this shop thermo cleaned, polished crank, bored and sleeved,
resized rods back to standard. We did all valves & assembly = their bill $435. My bill, I
didn't get my hands dirty. so don't listen to all these 'oh flatheads are expensive to build and thats BS
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Old 11-23-2019, 11:30 AM   #16
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

RE: 'Oh flatheads are expensive to build'

It all depends on what level of performance upgrades, quality/source for parts and are you doing basically stock rebuilds, or trying to get 175 HP with all the "go fast goodies" on the engine. For a 100% stock rebuild - the costs are similar for the machine work (other than the top-end), the parts are another story (especially performance parts).

Many flathead parts cost 2 - 3 times as much as the same/similar part of more modern engines. Here is a simple example:

SCAT Flathead 304 Cubic Inch Rotating Assembly: $1971 (cast crank, h-beam rods, ross pistons, rings, bearings, etc).

SCAT SBC 383 Rotating Assembly: 9000 Series cast crank, forged rods, forged pistons, bearings, etc.. $925

These are very comparable kits - thousand dollars more for a flathead . . .

Cam Kit:

Isky Flathead Cam Kit - includes cam, lifters and springs: $651

Isky SBC Cam Kit: Cam and lifters = $244, springs = $100 - total $344


If you go to a big name builder and get a flathead built, assembled - turnkey, you'll spend three times the money you would for a similar level of build in a SBC.

Now - for those of us on the Barn that know how to build stuff, have squirreled away parts for 40 years, etc -- we can do it for a lot cheaper than the $10-12,000 places like H&H like to charge (and that is a typical 276 CI build - nothing extravagant) . . . but a lot of guys building hotrods don't know how to build an engine and I question how good a lot of the 'popular' guys are anyway . . .

Again - same basic stuff, twice as much.
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Old 11-23-2019, 11:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

In my experiences I have found most sleeves are not perfectly round(if you measure carefully) and therefore some averaging will be needed to arrive at your desired fit diameter. I always shoot for.001 to .002 but things can happen and I have found myself chucking a sleeve in the lathe to remove a few microns. I never install a sleeve "dry".

I agree one of the worse mistakes is to become over confident with the installation forces required and failing to get it home makes for a sorry day.
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Old 11-24-2019, 12:14 PM   #18
Tim Ayers
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
RE: 'Oh flatheads are expensive to build'

It all depends on what level of performance upgrades, quality/source for parts and are you doing basically stock rebuilds, or trying to get 175 HP with all the "go fast goodies" on the engine. For a 100% stock rebuild - the costs are similar for the machine work (other than the top-end), the parts are another story (especially performance parts).

Many flathead parts cost 2 - 3 times as much as the same/similar part of more modern engines. Here is a simple example:

SCAT Flathead 304 Cubic Inch Rotating Assembly: $1971 (cast crank, h-beam rods, ross pistons, rings, bearings, etc).

SCAT SBC 383 Rotating Assembly: 9000 Series cast crank, forged rods, forged pistons, bearings, etc.. $925

These are very comparable kits - thousand dollars more for a flathead . . .

Cam Kit:

Isky Flathead Cam Kit - includes cam, lifters and springs: $651

Isky SBC Cam Kit: Cam and lifters = $244, springs = $100 - total $344


If you go to a big name builder and get a flathead built, assembled - turnkey, you'll spend three times the money you would for a similar level of build in a SBC.

Now - for those of us on the Barn that know how to build stuff, have squirreled away parts for 40 years, etc -- we can do it for a lot cheaper than the $10-12,000 places like H&H like to charge (and that is a typical 276 CI build - nothing extravagant) . . . but a lot of guys building hotrods don't know how to build an engine and I question how good a lot of the 'popular' guys are anyway . . .

Again - same basic stuff, twice as much.
Agree with Dale. Expensive is in the eye of the holder of the pocket book.

Sure, you can build a motor for somewhat little money and it all depends what you want to do with it.

As for a $450 something dollar machine shop bill, please list the name and location of the shop.

If they were able to do all that work for a total bill of $450, a little word of mouth would have a line out the door for them to do more motors. That is crazy cheap for the work have the work you mentioned done.

Balancing was $350 alone for my recent bill.

Again, we each do things our own way, but I'm just don't understand that once you have it apart, why would you not but it back together right?

The money you save "up front", is going to come back and bite you in the end.
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart View Post
Just how hard is it to fit a sleeve? What is the procedure? The crusty flatty I have just acquired probably needs a sleeve. I have a boring bar but have never used it. I was thinking of trying to bore the cylinders but the one needs to go way oversize to clean up. It might, repeat might, clean up at +.125, but I would need to take much more careful measurements before that would be even on the cards.

My preferred route would be to bore the seven cylinders to the first oversize at which they would clean up, and then sleeve the bad one to match.

Any pointers? or is this just something that is best farmed out??

Mart.
Depends on how proficient you are with the boring bar?
It's not hard to "Fit" a sleeve but the machine has to be accurate to produce the press fit you are trying to achieve and you need to leave a step at bottom for the sleeve to seat against.
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: For those with machining experience. Sleeve fitting??

Hi Mart, first item I would check assuming a deck-mounted bar here, I would recommend somehow mounting a dial indicator on the column down near where the cutter mounts.

Run the cutter head down the cylinder and make absolutely sure you know ahead of time that the column runs "true" the full length of the bore. If not you MUST "shim" the bar on the deck until all is trued up!

When I first started in this business we also had a Van-Norman deck-mounted bar, at the time we "struggled" by with it. Finally upped and bought a Kwik-Way "FN" bar and the boring stand and never looked back. I still have both here today but rarely use either any longer. Just about every block bored here now gets done on the CNC.

The way we do it now we can actually "move" a cylinder if we have to, we look at how it cleans up on a "light" pass and move it ever so slightly if necessary? Generally this isn't needed on a large o'bore, but we've saved a few bores at .040" over, instead having to go .060" or .080".

You want a .002"/.003" press-fit, when we pull/press (we don't "hammer" any sleeves in place) the sleeve in we use Loctite all around it and we do leave a "step" on the bottom. We've also done a few "flanged-top" sleeves, they require a counter-bore at the top of the cylinder.

I would also most likely want to do a sonic test on any sleeved bores before starting, just as a precaution?

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. With any deck-mounted bar you don't want to risk making a "new" center-line on an existing hole, you could end up with a totally "crooked" hole at the bottom of the bore, maybe even "break-through"?? (Add) I also have a 1928 (?) Rottler deck-mounted boring bar, 100% manually-operated tool, no "electrics", not practical anymore, but makes for a nice conversation piece today??
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Last edited by GOSFAST; 11-24-2019 at 05:50 PM. Reason: C
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