The Ford Barn

FordMike · 10-29-2012, 12:34 AM

Ok tried my luck on a piston today. I started by drilling a hole in the top. Upon inspection I didn't think there was anyway I could simply hit and break the rod down out of the piston so I heated and melted the piston a bit. I got the rod and wrist pin out with no damage and the piston or what is left of it is large gobs of aluminum on the garage floor and either way the bore is completely shot... The wrist pins are tight and seem like they have no wear on them at all. I was wondering... The rods have 29A on them and I was wondering if that means they were out of a different engine or do they all have that on them?

Either way its getting there. I can post a couple pictures up tomorrow if I can get out to the garage and not get blown away in this hurricane!

After these pistons come out I get to have fun with the valves, which I have no clue what I'm doing there. I also have to get a bunch of studs out which I'm not too excited about doing especially if the threads go into the water jackets. If they don't that would be awesome but still I want to break as few of these off as I possibly can...

Sorry for a rant, pics tomorrow

leon renaud · 10-29-2012, 04:46 PM

subscribed ;
I just made a deal for V8 and automatic trans out of a 50 Ford sedan, At 58 years old I will be starting my first ever flat head tear down/rebuild over the winter traded a Econoline axle I got free for the Flattie to go with a bunch of other Ford flattie drive line pieces I've collected.

FordMike · 11-05-2012, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leon renaud

subscribed ;
I just made a deal for V8 and automatic trans out of a 50 Ford sedan, At 58 years old I will be starting my first ever flat head tear down/rebuild over the winter traded a Econoline axle I got free for the Flattie to go with a bunch of other Ford flattie drive line pieces I've collected.

Thank you, hopefully you'll be able to use some info others have posted on here and most importantly you will learn to NOT get an engine this bad!!

Ok sorry, I know I promised pics awhile ago but between having no power for quite a few days and cleaning up all the storm debris I couldn't find the time. Well now everything is back to normal and pistons are poppin out left and right!.... Well again not really they are a little hard to get out to say the least.

Needless to say it put up a little bit of a fight...

The bore is also complete toast, but I have been talking to alot of old timers locally and I may just may have found someone with the tool to take the sleeves out. I'm not going to hold my breath and I'm still thinking of how it could be done at home.

Until next time

Bruce Lancaster · 11-06-2012, 10:55 AM

The sleeves (I assume 040 oem sleeves, not cast iron rebuild ones) can be removed by simply collapsing them. Find a way like screwdriver and hammer against the top edge (which is thicker than the main part of sleeve, it fits into a groove as stop) to start it inward. Once you have a gap, you drive in a tool to collapse the thing...there was a purpose made sort of triangular punch, if I did this I would try to use something non-ferrous to minimize damage to the real wall.
I have the tool for installing, essentially a huge screw and an iron slug that fits into and supports sleeve. Tobyhanna is eastern PA, right?

Bruce Lancaster · 11-06-2012, 11:02 AM

For valves, I assume stock early type with mushroom valve stems...killer combo is cam-action tool that grips guide retainer and pulls it out (you have to steel yourself for the destruction of a 15 cent part times 16!!), then the big KD C-clamp which yanks the assembly outtathere no matter what. Got those tools here.
Ford method from manual will keep you occupied for days and cost you a quart of blood...
No-tool way, assuming that valves are not candidates for re-education, is to drill hole at center of each valve, increasing size until head can be broken off. Then guide can be driven down with suitable socket as the punch, keeperator removed, and you have applied enough violence to make lever much more effective. Always try the lever first, by the way...I have been surprised a few times by guides that had read the shop manual and knew they were supposed to move...

out plowing · 11-06-2012, 08:26 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

For valves, ... will keep you occupied for days and cost you a quart of blood...

that no joke... i have been at it for over a year. I got one with a broken off head, seized in the up position. So not a lot of room to get the KD puller in to pop it up. may just need to drill the center and put a blow torch and heat the guide up and let it cool back down. then let the slide-hammer do the rest of the work.

Bruce Lancaster · 11-07-2012, 10:00 AM

On the studs...I have and recommend a Snap-on collett type that locks onto the threads and turns concentrically with the stud. It is similar to the Ford one shown in the '37-48 Ford engine overhaul book (GET ONE!!!), but bigger and adaptable to other sizes. I can lend you that...extracting broken studs can be even less fun than removing guides. Do not run a tap in holes...class 4 or something threads in there.

FordMike · 11-07-2012, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

On the studs...I have and recommend a Snap-on collett type that locks onto the threads and turns concentrically with the stud. It is similar to the Ford one shown in the '37-48 Ford engine overhaul book (GET ONE!!!), but bigger and adaptable to other sizes. I can lend you that...extracting broken studs can be even less fun than removing guides. Do not run a tap in holes...class 4 or something threads in there.

I'm almost positive there is a stud remover somewhere in the garage. I'll have to dig it out. I was starting to think I need a book or something because some of the things I'm find aren't adding up with the little info I know. I also found out fairly quickly that there isn't a whole lot of info about these 99 motors on the web.

I figured I would post this up in case anyone has a flathead that is a little stuck like mine. It's just basically a few pictures showing how we are removing these pistons/ sleeves, hopefully it will help someone out.

Started off by boring a hole in the top of the piston.... Its got to be fairly centered because you dont want to hit the rings, also you have to be careful to not go crazy and drill into the wrist pins.

Now a couple of good whacks on the top should bust it off. We are then just melting an inch of so wide chunk out of the piston all the way down. The aluminum heats up much faster than the block of sleeve.

Then just get a bar and pound it out. Its pretty straight forward as long as you don't go crazy.

On the next cylinder over we got a little wild and burned a hole in the sleeve, so I guess its time to try and get one of them out. This was actually alot easier than I imagined. Just heated the hell out of the sleeve and stuck a screwdriver under it to buckle it. Safety first, ignore the lack of safety in this pic, we're professionals!

Half way through...

And the outcome...

One de-sleeved flathead cylinder. This cylinder has a little divit in the wall, I'm pretty sure that its not cracked, at least in this cylinder.

Now were these engines bored out from the factory? It's stamped .030 right above and it appears to me to be in a factory font. I'm just thinking this over because I looked in the mac's catalog and there are sleeves in there that are 1/8 and even though I dont have a micrometer I put this sleeve against a .030 feeler gauge and it looks like a match. I dont know, I just have a feeling that this thing was made to accept ford pistons. I don't know maybe I'm crazy, I forgot to measure the bore without the sleeve, I will have to get it tomorrow...

Until next time...

Bruce Lancaster · 11-08-2012, 09:48 AM

I think the OEM sleeves are around 040, and have a step fit into block at top. Repair sleeves are entirely different and much thicker, and of course would have been nearly impossible to remove so readily.
Maybe the 030 refers to crank...there were no different sizes of original type sleeves, as replacing them constituted a rebuild to stock...3 3/16"
Replacement really needs the Ford tool or an equicalent machined piece to support the sleeve, as it is thin enough to buckle as it is pulled in by the tool.

FordMike · 09-13-2013, 10:31 PM

Hey guys, its been a long time and I figured I'd put a little update here. I do believe it or not still have this engine and against my better judgement still plan on working on it. I'm not sure if anyone is still following this anymore or even cares about my crazy antics but I am going to start tinkering with this engine again, this time hopefully I'll make some progress.

Well, its been around a year and a LOT has changed. I have gained some knowledge on flatheads and I also got my hands on an original repair manual for Ford & Mercury V8 engines from 37-46 which has been able to give me a pretty good idea of what I need to do. I have also inadvertently acquired an 8ba crank as well as a set of 8ba rods which as some stated before in this thread could be used in this engine. But the real reason I have all of a sudden gotten the itch to work on this engine was I got a 29 Model A roadster this past spring. I know many of you guys are into restoration not hot rods which I respect, but this car is not going to be "restored" per say, rather built into a traditional to the late 40s hotrod. I milled around with the idea of different powerplants but after awhile I decided it needed a flathead and what better engine than a merc flathead. Some of you guys may cringe at the thought but I'm sorry, thats the way its gotta be!

Sorry to bore you guys with my life story over here but I just figured it would be cool to revive this thread because there was some grade A info in here and I'm sure there will be more to come. I haven't done anything to the engine except move it around in the garage over the last year but that will soon change. I will get the four remaining pistons out and try removing the studs. I'll try to keep this updated by posting pics and asking questions when I get stumped. I can post a pic of the car up if anyone would like, I am refraining as of now because like I said, it isn't a restoration. Thanks guys,

Mike

Bassman/NZ · 09-14-2013, 12:31 AM

Nothing wrong with a 29 A with flattie. Mine is a 28 tudor with 47 engine. Keep posting man, we never get bored of anything flathead related because we're all inflicted with the "disease" ......

rotorwrench · 09-14-2013, 10:06 AM

There are several AV8 builders on this forum. The car build info would be more welcomed on the HAMB but the engine build is no problem on this site and questions about AV8s are posted frequently without too much turmoil since they usually contain many parts scrounged from the V8 era cars & trucks that a person may need information about.

Pete · 07-11-2015, 01:40 PM

I would say get the pistons and valves out but leave the sleeves in.
You are going to have the block bored so let them take the sleeves out by offset boring. Much quicker AND guaranteed no wall damage in the process.
An easy way to get the valves out is rent a plasma cutter and cut the valve head off, cut the spring and stem out and then just drive everything out with a punch. Takes about 2 minutes to get one out.

Edit:
I just noticed this is and old obsolete thread.
Oh well.......

Ol' Ron · 07-11-2015, 04:11 PM

I just took apart an old 8BA. Before I started I painted everything with 50/50 mix. Did this every morning for two weeks. I had a big braker arm on the crank. after two weeks it broke loose, after another day it spun freely, so it came apart with little effort.
If your not in a hurry, this is the way to go.

10-29-2012, 12:34 AM	#81
FordMike Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tobyhanna, Pa Posts: 91	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? Ok tried my luck on a piston today. I started by drilling a hole in the top. Upon inspection I didn't think there was anyway I could simply hit and break the rod down out of the piston so I heated and melted the piston a bit. I got the rod and wrist pin out with no damage and the piston or what is left of it is large gobs of aluminum on the garage floor and either way the bore is completely shot... The wrist pins are tight and seem like they have no wear on them at all. I was wondering... The rods have 29A on them and I was wondering if that means they were out of a different engine or do they all have that on them? Either way its getting there. I can post a couple pictures up tomorrow if I can get out to the garage and not get blown away in this hurricane! After these pistons come out I get to have fun with the valves, which I have no clue what I'm doing there. I also have to get a bunch of studs out which I'm not too excited about doing especially if the threads go into the water jackets. If they don't that would be awesome but still I want to break as few of these off as I possibly can... Sorry for a rant, pics tomorrow

10-29-2012, 04:46 PM	#82
leon renaud Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 2	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? subscribed ; I just made a deal for V8 and automatic trans out of a 50 Ford sedan, At 58 years old I will be starting my first ever flat head tear down/rebuild over the winter traded a Econoline axle I got free for the Flattie to go with a bunch of other Ford flattie drive line pieces I've collected.

11-06-2012, 10:55 AM	#84
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? The sleeves (I assume 040 oem sleeves, not cast iron rebuild ones) can be removed by simply collapsing them. Find a way like screwdriver and hammer against the top edge (which is thicker than the main part of sleeve, it fits into a groove as stop) to start it inward. Once you have a gap, you drive in a tool to collapse the thing...there was a purpose made sort of triangular punch, if I did this I would try to use something non-ferrous to minimize damage to the real wall. I have the tool for installing, essentially a huge screw and an iron slug that fits into and supports sleeve. Tobyhanna is eastern PA, right?

11-06-2012, 11:02 AM	#85
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? For valves, I assume stock early type with mushroom valve stems...killer combo is cam-action tool that grips guide retainer and pulls it out (you have to steel yourself for the destruction of a 15 cent part times 16!!), then the big KD C-clamp which yanks the assembly outtathere no matter what. Got those tools here. Ford method from manual will keep you occupied for days and cost you a quart of blood... No-tool way, assuming that valves are not candidates for re-education, is to drill hole at center of each valve, increasing size until head can be broken off. Then guide can be driven down with suitable socket as the punch, keeperator removed, and you have applied enough violence to make lever much more effective. Always try the lever first, by the way...I have been surprised a few times by guides that had read the shop manual and knew they were supposed to move...

11-07-2012, 10:00 AM	#87
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? On the studs...I have and recommend a Snap-on collett type that locks onto the threads and turns concentrically with the stud. It is similar to the Ford one shown in the '37-48 Ford engine overhaul book (GET ONE!!!), but bigger and adaptable to other sizes. I can lend you that...extracting broken studs can be even less fun than removing guides. Do not run a tap in holes...class 4 or something threads in there.

11-08-2012, 09:48 AM	#89
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? I think the OEM sleeves are around 040, and have a step fit into block at top. Repair sleeves are entirely different and much thicker, and of course would have been nearly impossible to remove so readily. Maybe the 030 refers to crank...there were no different sizes of original type sleeves, as replacing them constituted a rebuild to stock...3 3/16" Replacement really needs the Ford tool or an equicalent machined piece to support the sleeve, as it is thin enough to buckle as it is pulled in by the tool.

09-13-2013, 10:31 PM	#90
FordMike Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tobyhanna, Pa Posts: 91	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? Hey guys, its been a long time and I figured I'd put a little update here. I do believe it or not still have this engine and against my better judgement still plan on working on it. I'm not sure if anyone is still following this anymore or even cares about my crazy antics but I am going to start tinkering with this engine again, this time hopefully I'll make some progress. Well, its been around a year and a LOT has changed. I have gained some knowledge on flatheads and I also got my hands on an original repair manual for Ford & Mercury V8 engines from 37-46 which has been able to give me a pretty good idea of what I need to do. I have also inadvertently acquired an 8ba crank as well as a set of 8ba rods which as some stated before in this thread could be used in this engine. But the real reason I have all of a sudden gotten the itch to work on this engine was I got a 29 Model A roadster this past spring. I know many of you guys are into restoration not hot rods which I respect, but this car is not going to be "restored" per say, rather built into a traditional to the late 40s hotrod. I milled around with the idea of different powerplants but after awhile I decided it needed a flathead and what better engine than a merc flathead. Some of you guys may cringe at the thought but I'm sorry, thats the way its gotta be! Sorry to bore you guys with my life story over here but I just figured it would be cool to revive this thread because there was some grade A info in here and I'm sure there will be more to come. I haven't done anything to the engine except move it around in the garage over the last year but that will soon change. I will get the four remaining pistons out and try removing the studs. I'll try to keep this updated by posting pics and asking questions when I get stumped. I can post a pic of the car up if anyone would like, I am refraining as of now because like I said, it isn't a restoration. Thanks guys, Mike

09-14-2013, 12:31 AM	#91
Bassman/NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Napier, New Zealand Posts: 2,001	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? Nothing wrong with a 29 A with flattie. Mine is a 28 tudor with 47 engine. Keep posting man, we never get bored of anything flathead related because we're all inflicted with the "disease" ......

09-14-2013, 10:06 AM	#92
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? There are several AV8 builders on this forum. The car build info would be more welcomed on the HAMB but the engine build is no problem on this site and questions about AV8s are posted frequently without too much turmoil since they usually contain many parts scrounged from the V8 era cars & trucks that a person may need information about.

07-11-2015, 01:40 PM	#93
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,409	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? I would say get the pistons and valves out but leave the sleeves in. You are going to have the block bored so let them take the sleeves out by offset boring. Much quicker AND guaranteed no wall damage in the process. An easy way to get the valves out is rent a plasma cutter and cut the valve head off, cut the spring and stem out and then just drive everything out with a punch. Takes about 2 minutes to get one out. Edit: I just noticed this is and old obsolete thread. Oh well.......

07-11-2015, 04:11 PM	#94
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,861	Re: School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew? I just took apart an old 8BA. Before I started I painted everything with 50/50 mix. Did this every morning for two weeks. I had a big braker arm on the crank. after two weeks it broke loose, after another day it spun freely, so it came apart with little effort. If your not in a hurry, this is the way to go.