School me on flatheads... Did I bite off more than I can chew?

[FordMike]

So I went over to a buddy's place to help him get his car going this past weekend and after we got it going he says he found this old flathead under his deck. When he build his 36 ford truck he stashed this away and opted for a buick engine. Now I know he did his truck in the 80s so this thing has set for a very long time... Well we went and checked it out, the first major thing I noticed was it didn't have the heads on it, but he said if I wanted it, I could have it. If anyone knows me I never pass up a freebie, so I got it. This is when we first got it home... As you can see it has no heads and it pretty badly seized up.



but the whole engine was covered pretty well under his deck. Anyway, the first thing we did was take the trans off. It was really locked up and took a lot longer than I expected. The clutch and pressure plate were actually rusted together. After getting it off we spent the whole day messing with the gears and getting them to move around. Well we actually got it to shift and then we steamed it off. The only trouble was the throw out bearing was stuck on the with a few taps it came off along with half of the retainer it slides on. Its a real bummer that it broke but it looks to me like it was cracked before I got my hands on it, oh well no biggie.



With the trans stashed away I decided to tear the engine down. As I was looking at the engine closely, it looks like it has sleeves. My question is did they all have sleeves and is it possible for me to press them out and get new ones in without sending it out to a machine shop? I actually don't know what year this thing even is, I do know it is a 24 stud and I am not familiar with these engines. Every flathead I have ever tinkered with was a 21 stud. Sorry if this has been covered here 100 times, I am not to computer savvy. I'm just trying to get some info on this thing, and see if its possible to get it going again. Oh and I apologize for writing a book as well.

I'll post more as I take it down

Thanks in advance,
Mike

[Bruce Lancaster]

Looks like a '39-40 221...many of these came with thin sleeves stock, allowing rebuild by pressing out the old ones and in with the new. Could also be '38...would need pic of front pulley to tell.
Rebuilding this rusted lump is crazy, and I really like the idea!
PS...serial # at top front of trans casting will tell you year IF trans an engine left detroit together...

[FordMike]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Looks like a '39-40 221...many of these came with thin sleeves stock, allowing rebuild by pressing out the old ones and in with the new. Could also be '38...would need pic of front pulley to tell.
Rebuilding this rusted lump is crazy, and I really like the idea!
PS...serial # at top front of trans casting will tell you year IF trans an engine left detroit together...

Thanks for the great info! I'll be cleaning it up real good within the next couple days and I'll keep an eye out for any numbers or dates. Heres the front, I'm guessing there is a missing pulley at the end.



I was just out tinkering trying to get the water pumps off. The one on the drivers side came right off after taking the 3 exposed bolts out. The passengers side, well... I didn't know there was a sneaky bolt hidden inside that wasn't on the other side for some reason... Needless to say I gave it a little tap because I thought it was stuck...



!!

[Mike51Merc]

Nothing a little WD-40 won't fix.

[19Fordy]

Remember, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

What you have there is now a boat anchor.

[FordMike]

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Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Remember, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

What yuo have there is now a boat anchor.

Oh come on now, don't be so black and white.

Trust me we've been told its a boat anchor before and its always turned out ok.

[rotorwrench]

You can buy repro water pumps and there are a lot of old cores out there too. Looks like a crank mounted fan was on it. I've saved a few rusty ones like that but few will pass muster when the corrosion pebbles out to much solid iron. If there was no water in it, it might not have any freeze cracks unless it had some before it went under the deck. Pan rails crack open if it freezes up real bad. The cylinder decks can be skimmed a bit to clean them up if they aren't too badly rusted up. You might have to cut the pistons out to prevent further cylinder wall damage or distortion. The old 221 engines had thinner cylinder walls so you could only bore them about as far as modern blocks. If the sleeves didn't rust through, you might still have something there. If nothing else, there is still a crank & some rods if they didn't get rusty.

[FordMike]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

You can buy repro water pumps and there are a lot of old cores out there too. Looks like a crank mounted fan was on it. I've saved a few rusty ones like that but few will pass muster when the corrosion pebbles out to much solid iron. If there was no water in it, it might not have any freeze cracks unless it had some before it went under the deck. Pan rails crack open if it freezes up real bad. The cylinder decks can be skimmed a bit to clean them up if they aren't too badly rusted up. You might have to cut the pistons out to prevent further cylinder wall damage or distortion. The old 221 engines had thinner cylinder walls so you could only bore them about as far as modern blocks. If the sleeves didn't rust through, you might still have something there. If nothing else, there is still a crank & some rods if they didn't get rusty.

Thats what I figure, there are alot of good parts. Its more of a learning curve for me too. Even if the engine is junk I still learned how they go together. I wasnt too concerned about busting the water pump because from my experience with model A engines they would just leak like sives when you get the engine together. There was a little water in the pan, very little. I checked the block out very closely and I dont notice any cracks. My one main question would be how could I get the sleeves out. I saw you can buy sleeves in the macs catalog so I figured you could change them yourself. I don't plan to get it machined. If it comes down to that I will probably keep the good parts and junk the rest.


Right now my hang up is the oil sump won't come out, and the rod for the fuel pump wont either. Is there something I'm missing? I know there is a gear on the oil pump which is surely froze up which wont allow it to come out.

[Mike in AZ]

looks like you're having fun, so keep on playing....not a lot of differences between the earlier flatheads and the one you have, so you have some knowledge of flatheads....good luck....lots of info on the link....very helpful.....Mike

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_home.htm

[1952henry]

Might turn out okay; if you have the time, it doesn't cost anything beyond penetrating fluid and blood to tear it down. I had one ('37) that wasn't quite that unsightly (it was close as it had sat outside). Long story short, a friend was able to salvage the crank.

If nothing else, the oilpan and transmission case/parts might be of value to someone.

[FordMike]

Originally Posted by Mike in AZ

looks like you're having fun, so keep on playing....not a lot of differences between the earlier flatheads and the one you have, so you have some knowledge of flatheads....good luck....lots of info on the link....very helpful.....Mike

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_home.htm

Its much easier to learn by doing so I'm definitely having fun!
Thanks for the link too, there is a ton of good info there. Looks like I found some rainy day reading material!

Originally Posted by 1952henry

Might turn out okay; if you have the time, it doesn't cost anything beyond penetrating fluid and blood to tear it down. I had one ('37) that wasn't quite that unsightly (it was close as it had sat outside). Long story short, a friend was able to salvage the crank.

If nothing else, the oilpan and transmission case/parts might be of value to someone.

I have more time than money and brains so I'll be alright! Thats my plan, just try and get it as far apart as I can then steam clean it real good and see what I'm left with!

[~~Walts37~~]

Mike
Just make sure of one thing (Have fun) & keep the fingers crossed
~~Walts37~~

[Cecil/WV]

You might run a weld bead down the sleeve and pull it out, but be careful not to burn through.

[FordMike]

Originally Posted by Cecil/WV

You might run a weld bead down the sleeve and pull it out, but be careful not to burn through.

Thank you this is exactly the suggestions I was looking for! This is better than my plan of attack

[Straightpipes]

You must give blood to the flathead gods.........This usually happens when you start disassembling the valves

[Ol' Ron]

You need an old motors manual and a few other books like mine or jWL's.
But the best tool for disasembly is the 50/50 mix of aceatome and ATF.
You have fun.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

You need an old motors manual and a few other books like mine or jWL's.
But the best tool for disasembly is the 50/50 mix of aceatome and ATF.
You have fun.

I would agree. This block maybe a good candidate for the molasass descaling/derusting trick.

If anything, you'll have either have a nice 48 or 78 series trans case.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

FlatMike. On the oil pump. Take a big pipe wrench and grab the pump right at the big part by the gears, Now, twist the pump back and forth, squirt some weasel piss around the bottom, now try prying up on the pump while twisting, DONT break the pump off, it will be harder to get out. NOW, on the fuel pump push rod, don't break it off, if you do you won't be able to get the cam out. squirt weasel piss around the bottom of the rod and take a hammer and keep tapping down on the rod while carfully twisting the rod with vise grips. Walt

[19Fordy]

FordMike,
Ok, I'll reconsider after seeing what you "saved" and brought back to life.
My thinking is that for the amount of time and money involved to revive that engine, it might be wiser to get one in better condition.
Got to admit, you did a super job on your truck. Looks great.

[thirt4]

Ol' Ron, what is "aceatome" ? What is it normally used for and where would one go to purchase it? I have plenty of ATF.
By the way, my late mother-in-law lived in Newfane, Vt. I just see that you are from Vt.
Pretty country there for sure.