copper head gasket?

[carguybill]

Recently in our shop we made a set of all copper head gaskets that the customer was going to use in his pulling tractor. He was wanting these to increase his compression ratio.

Reviewing the threads here I read about copper faced gaskets but no mention of just a single layer of copper. Is a single layer of copper a viable alternative for our flatheads?

[Ol' Ron]

There was a time you could buy gasket shims of varring thicknesses, but I don't think they would work unless the heads and block were perfitaly flat.

[bobH]

I tried single-layer copper gaskets when I was a kid, early 50's. I didn't know anything about flatness, and I didn't know about Copper-Coat, if it was even available. So... I was not successful. I'm thinking I wouldn't go there, unless someone here points out how they made it work. JMO

[Ed Pitts]

How thick was the single layer? That would make a difference. Ed

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by bobH

I tried single-layer copper gaskets when I was a kid, early 50's. I didn't know anything about flatness, and I didn't know about Copper-Coat, if it was even available. So... I was not successful. I'm thinking I wouldn't go there, unless someone here points out how they made it work. JMO

We used them in our overhead valve circle track engines. We used dead soft copper .035 - .045 worked fine.
Bill

[phil pavicich]

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im about to install a set of copper head gaskets , not solid , composite inner , do you coat these gaskets before instalation with a sealant?
thanks in advance

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

I used a set of one piece copper gasket on an 59AB a few yr's ago. A friend got them out of Calf I think. .025 thick. I had to use them because his milled Offy heads was hitting the pistons hard so I used the shim on top of a copper big bore gasket. I did get a set of steel shim gaskets out of Teaxas a few yr's ago, cain't remember where that was. Like some one else I tried a set of just copper shims back in the 50's and they leaked, I probably could do a better job now. Us old gear heads learned a lot when we were kids. Some of us wasn't smart enough to get a money job but we loved build engines all our lives. Walt

[JWL]

It is REALLY difficult to get solid copper gaskets to hold water. RTV sealant works if allowed to "set-up" for several hours before starting engine. However, the solid gaskets can be re-used many times when annealed between installations. Maintaining flatness is real important so bolt/stud torque values must be adjusted to coordinate with block and head rigidity. I would NOT use them except in a competition environment.

[carguybill]

OK, thanks, that's the information I was looking for. Since I'm a lot more interested in reliability than performance it looks like the composite gaskets are the best bet.

Is there an advantage to the copper faced composite gaskets? Does it matter whether the heads are steel or aluminum?

[rotorwrench]

An old timer told me that they only used paint to seal copper head gaskets back in the day. Mostly the silver spray paint that has a lot of aluminum powder in it. K&W Copper Coat works but wasn't always available. Once a gasket has been used on a joint, it can be reused after annealing the copper but you have to make sure and put the same gasket back in the same possition or it will likely leak. They also used K&W Permanent Metalic or Bar's leaks in the cooling system to seal up any seeps.

Aircraft spark plugs still use copper washers to seal them to this day but there is a lot less to seal there and no coolant involvement.

[Ol' Ron]

I like to use Hi-Tac, instead of copper coat. although I've used both. When installing cylinder heads you have to take into consideration the block surface ad the head surface. All the head have to be is flat, but the block is an uneven casting, thicker in some spots than others and 24 bolt holes. A good practice is to remove the top thread in all the bolt holes and not to over torque, 45 lbs is more than enough. Spray the gaskets and let them set up for awhile.

[chap52]

Back when I was a kid we used the aluminum spray paint. It seemed to work find for us then. Now I am much older and filled up on too much technical knowledge to just spray and bolt.
Bummer, this getting more smarts sure takes the peace I once had out of doing so many things that weren't suppose to work. Mr. Magoo syndrome?

[GEOFFNZ]

We still use solid copper gaskets in a vintage competition engine. As has been mentioned it is important to refit in the previous position and anneal each time.Silver paint is still used here as a sealer.I suspect still a small amount of gas leakage due to rigidity of material but no water in oil. Cheers.

[tamnalan]

How do folks anneal the copper gaskets? A good way to anneal aluminum trim is with an oxy torch - first use oxy alone to put a layer of soot on the trim, and then add oxygen and heat the aluminum until the soot burns off.

A trick I picked up while building a teardrop camper trailer.

[Tony, NY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VcqBprVP6o Annealing a head gasket (small).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6uXkVbprj0 making new copper head gaskets

[tamnalan]

Thanks! Copper glows... I didn't know that. Aluminum doesn't give much warning before it melts - hence the soot trick.

The guy in the video - I bet the copper would get even softer if he just left it hanging, although it may not make much difference on cooling speed for thin copper. The plate would help the gasket to remain flat as it cools, I suppose.

For anyone with mathematics interest: "simulated annealing" is a heuristic that can find good solutions for nondifferentiable functions like integer-constrained problems. It mimics the idea of heating a solid to a high temperature and then letting it slowly cool.

[Krylon32]

I use a local Machine shop and I have seen him making copper head gaskets for antique tractors that are being used at tractor pulls.

[Lawson Cox]

Is it really possible to squash a copper head thin enough to use it as a gasket? I'll bet you would have to trim it a lot.