head gasket/6:1/mystery?

[Growley bear]

I am not trying to hijack any posts or bash any parts vendors here.
This is an on going problem at my club in Coos county, OR. Two members same problem. 6:1 Snyder cylinder head premium head gasket and the fiber gasket also from Snyder's pictured here. One owner had this happen twice; he owns a machine shop and is a first class machinist. He switched to a Lion lll speed head and has had no more problems. The other engine, same thing only three gaskets blown at less than 500 miles each. At this time a 5:1 Snyder head has been substituted for the 6:1.
I also need to mention that both engines have been using 9lb pressurized cooling systems.
No one seems to understand what is causing this. To my knowledge not even Tom or his engineers. Has anyone experienced this and if so did was it repaired?
This erosion has taken place from the inside out toward the combustion chambers on cyls 2&3 every time and has been the same with all gaskets used. Any help or suggestions are of great importance and would be much appreciated.
The head gasket here is P/N B-6051-C. I don't have photos of the other gaskets. I wish I did.

Chet

[Gary WA]

Copper gaskets!!! only way to go. properly torqued and using the correct process.

[Jerry in Shasta]

Check the gasket fire ring fit on the head, I had a similar problem. It seems the mold slipped during casting and the head was not completely clapping the fire ring.

A copper head gasket made by "The Best Gasket Co." worked good for me.
JB

[Growley bear]

Thanks, I'll check on the copper. I don't know if a copper gasket was tried or not. I'll look into that. I know the heads were torqued properly and the block deck is in top notch condition.

Chet

[MikeK]

Have the heads in question (and the block) been checked for flatness? It is very easy to instill a torque on a part while clamped for machining. The result is a distorted planar surface that may NOT be detectable with a straightedge! Below is an example:

This distorted plane will measure perfectly "flat" with a machinist's straightedge along any point perpendicular to any edge AND across opposite corners. This is extremely deceiving and can only be detected with a surface plate or more advanced electronic measuring that 'feels' or scans the entire surface.

It is also possible that several heat cycles with applied head stud torque (clamp pressure) over differential gasket surface areas created uneven gasket compression that the head and block are too rigid to comply to. In essence, the gasket itself goes from planar to a compounded version of the above illustration in sections. In this case, the head may be too stiff to bend slightly while torqued down!

You can't go back and re-engineer the A block like a modern design, with stud placement calculated to present equalized gasket compression surface area to each head stud. How to address the difference in compressibility constants with gaskets and variances in rigidity of different heads could be beat to death in a forum with testimonials, but only real engineering data will prove out the best gasket for a particular application.

[Rowdy]

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Curious as th which head studs were used? The grade 5 that are made to look like originals or the grade 8 which are recomended for the high compression heads? Rod

[Purdy Swoft]

The 9 lb. pressurized cooling system is more than likely the problem.

[WKaufman]

The best way to go is with a copper head gasket, sprayed with Copper Coat, and most important, torque the head down in increments starting at 35# then 45# and then 55#, unless you have grade 8 studs and a good block then to 60# hot.
This works for me with a 8.5-1 head.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

The 9 lb. pressurized cooling system is more than likely the problem.

I agree and don't see any reason to pressurize the Model A. If you do, then I'd try something low, like about 3 lbs.

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

The 9 lb. pressurized cooling system is more than likely the problem.

Purdy,
I asked about that when the first head gasket went. I am inclined to think that is at least a good part of the problem.
We'll see. Thanks,

Chet

[Growley bear]

The 6:1 head was twisted and resurfaced twice between two blown head gaskets in the same location.
Grade 8 studs are being used. And I don't understand the need for a pressurized system in a Model A either. They aren't my cars though.
A copper gasket is now in use with a new 5:1 head and already torqued 3 times but not enough miles to tell yet.
Thanks for the comments and suggestions, all welcome and appreciated.

Chet

[SteveB31]

We have used for several years, the "Best" brand grey gasket with Copper Coat sprayed on both sides, on every engine we build and every head we install , and they never even seep. Most are Snyders 5.5 and 6.0 heads.

Never used pressurized radiators either. Don't see the need.

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

We have used for several years, the "Best" brand grey gasket with Copper Coat sprayed on both sides, on every engine we build and every head we install , and they never even seep. Most are Snyders 5.5 and 6.0 heads.

Never used pressurized radiators either. Don't see the need.

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center

Steve, thanks,
I'll forward the information.

Chet

[hardtimes]

Hey Chet,
I'm presently also using the 6:1 variety head you mention. BEST 501C copper with copper coat both sides and torqued as required..no seep at all. I had the head milled flat, just prior to installation. Just because I like to experiment and hate seep/weeping, I used a few pieces of copper wire for 'reinforcement', with normal torque, i.e.- 55lbs. Best head gasket seal job that I've ever had on a B. I'm going to try same procedures with next head super Winfield at 8.5:1 !

[larrys40]

[QUOTE=Tom Wesenberg;945732]I agree and don't see any reason to pressurize the Model A. If you do, then I'd try something low, like about 3 lbs.

I agree . There is no reason for that kind of pressure in a model a system .
Larry a

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

The 9 lb. pressurized cooling system is more than likely the problem.

;Please explain how 9 lb. of water pressure will erode a properly installed head gasket If both surfaces are true and the correct studs are used and installed correctly.
I believe there is a problem with the head in that area (soft/ thin spot /weak casting. Bill



Where is Larry Brumfield when you need him

[tbirdtbird]

"I believe there is a problem with the head in that area (soft/ thin spot /weak casting"

maybe. but the fiber gasket is junk.

Felpro copper 7013 non-silicone works well in this shop. Re-torque at least 3 times. There is no such thing as checking the torque too many times. We torque initially; then after 10 min of running, then after another 30 min, then at 25, 50, and 100 miles.

I have looked at Best gaskets and I am glad they are working for people, but the ones I looked at had very poorly made fire rings and I would not use them

also agree pressurized system not needed at all

"If it ain't broke fix it until it is" applies to pressurizing

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

;Please explain how 9 lb. of water pressure will erode a properly installed head gasket If both surfaces are true and the correct studs are used and installed correctly.
I believe there is a problem with the head in that area (soft/ thin spot /weak casting. Bill



Where is Larry Brumfield when you need him

The cylinder head is definitely suspected of being flawed. I don't see how 9 lb pressure can cause this either; it may add to the relatively short period of time for the erosion to occur. 100 miles in this last instance. Thanks for your assistance,

Chet

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

"I believe there is a problem with the head in that area (soft/ thin spot /weak casting"

maybe. but the fiber gasket is junk.

Felpro copper 7013 non-silicone works well in this shop. Re-torque at least 3 times. There is no such thing as checking the torque too many times. We torque initially; then after 10 min of running, then after another 30 min, then at 25, 50, and 100 miles.

I have looked at Best gaskets and I am glad they are working for people, but the ones I looked at had very poorly made fire rings and I would not use them

also agree pressurized system not needed at all

"If it ain't broke fix it until it is" applies to pressurizing

I have been informed by the owner of the problem that the first gasket to go was a copper gasket that was only leaking on an outside area of the head. I also torque until there is no noticeable movement at ant of the head nuts. I torqued my stock head at least five times and recheck every 500 miles.
I was also told that the reason for pressurizing the system and installing a thermostat is to aid in faster warm up time. I know that a pressurized system will operate at a higher temp. before boiling. At this point the theory of operation tends to drift away from Model A to the more modern technology used in vehicles of the past 30 or so years.
I agree with principle of, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."
I'll keep this Fel Pro P/N and pass this info on to the owner. Thanks for your help,

Chet

[Dave in MN]

Regarding the failure of the head gasket in this thread: I don't think the pressurized system had anything to do with the failure other than it likely made the failure progress at a faster rate. I believe there is some other problem causing the failure. Studying the photos of the composite gasket, there is what appears to be a "carbon track" on the fire rings adjoining the failed area. It is likely that the escaping combustion gases eroded the composite material and the coolant leak followed. This area on used original or replacement stock heads is often collapsed when I surface them. It is not uncommon for this area of the head to be from .008" to .012" off from the rest of the head. I have not surfaced many new Snyder's heads so I have not noticed a pattern of similar collapse. I did have one new Snyder's head that would not hold gaskets (purchased in 2012) and I found this area collapsed as previously described after two gasket failures while running dyno tests. A second Snyder's head had a variation from normal on the combustion chamber that would not properly cover the fire ring...I substituted a gasket that better fit the chamber design and the problem ceased.

Pressurized system the cause of the failure...from my experience…I don't think so. The general consensus of the previous posters is a pressurized system is not necessary...and I agree: For the Model A that is maintained and driven like Ford envisioned, a pressurized cooling system is not needed. But...there are always a few that do not follow the norm and I happen to be part of this latter group. I drive most of my miles within Ford's design limits but I often get on the freeway and keep up with the traffic in the right lane. I have an inserted, counterweighted and balanced engine with a Mitchell overdrive. I have had a 3# pressurized system for 11 years and during that time driven over 70,000 miles. I have only changed the head gasket one time during that period...and that was because I wanted to check the head for carbon build-up...not because it had failed.
Regarding the type of gasket I have used during these miles: My first gasket was copper (19K miles). The second gasket is a Snyder's Premium B gasket with the silicone seals (52K miles). Both of these gaskets have worked fine under some pretty hard driving at times.
From my experience, a 3# pressurized system has its advantages if you often run at freeway speeds, primarily the coolant stays in the system and your hood and the highway remain dry. Before adding the pressurized system with expansion tank, I was washing my hood and adding coolant on a regular basis. With the pressurized system, I often go an entire season of driving without needing to add coolant. Just my experiences and opinion…formed over 70K+ miles.
I hope your search for answers is a short one!
Good Day!

[tbirdtbird]

with this much trouble at this point I would mill the head in question even if it is brand new. I would also consider that the deck may be warped and the engine may have to be pulled, taken apart, and hauled off to a machine shop for a slight cut. Then reassemble with the Felpro 7013 non-silicone version (anyone around here who has tried the silicone has had them fail early for whatever reason, so I have refused to try one) using the techniques already explained including 2 good sprays with Permatex copper coat.

I agree the pressurization did not contribute to failure but I still maintain it is unnecessary. I tour all over the place, 1000 miles at a clip, Mitchell, and never have a problem. The model A engine is so inefficient at fuel combustion that a quick warmup is never a problem. If you live in Alaska I suppose this could be different but in that case just use a stat

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

Regarding the failure of the head gasket in this thread: I don't think the pressurized system had anything to do with the failure other than it likely made the failure progress at a faster rate. I believe there is some other problem causing the failure. Studying the photos of the composite gasket, there is what appears to be a "carbon track" on the fire rings adjoining the failed area. It is likely that the escaping combustion gases eroded the composite material and the coolant leak followed. This area on used original or replacement stock heads is often collapsed when I surface them. It is not uncommon for this area of the head to be from .008" to .012" off from the rest of the head. I have not surfaced many new Snyder's heads so I have not noticed a pattern of similar collapse. I did have one new Snyder's head that would not hold gaskets (purchased in 2012) and I found this area collapsed as previously described after two gasket failures while running dyno tests. A second Snyder's head had a variation from normal on the combustion chamber that would not properly cover the fire ring...I substituted a gasket that better fit the chamber design and the problem ceased.

Pressurized system the cause of the failure...from my experience…I don't think so. The general consensus of the previous posters is a pressurized system is not necessary...and I agree: For the Model A that is maintained and driven like Ford envisioned, a pressurized cooling system is not needed. But...there are always a few that do not follow the norm and I happen to be part of this latter group. I drive most of my miles within Ford's design limits but I often get on the freeway and keep up with the traffic in the right lane. I have an inserted, counterweighted and balanced engine with a Mitchell overdrive. I have had a 3# pressurized system for 11 years and during that time driven over 70,000 miles. I have only changed the head gasket one time during that period...and that was because I wanted to check the head for carbon build-up...not because it had failed.
Regarding the type of gasket I have used during these miles: My first gasket was copper (19K miles). The second gasket is a Snyder's Premium B gasket with the silicone seals (52K miles). Both of these gaskets have worked fine under some pretty hard driving at times.
From my experience, a 3# pressurized system has its advantages if you often run at freeway speeds, primarily the coolant stays in the system and your hood and the highway remain dry. Before adding the pressurized system with expansion tank, I was washing my hood and adding coolant on a regular basis. With the pressurized system, I often go an entire season of driving without needing to add coolant. Just my experiences and opinion…formed over 70K+ miles.
I hope your search for answers is a short one!
Good Day!

Dave, thank you,
This is very good information. I'll pass it along; I am going to look at the gasket again this morning.

Chet

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

with this much trouble at this point I would mill the head in question even if it is brand new. I would also consider that the deck may be warped and the engine may have to be pulled, taken apart, and hauled off to a machine shop for a slight cut. Then reassemble with the Felpro 7013 non-silicone version (anyone around here who has tried the silicone has had them fail early for whatever reason, so I have refused to try one) using the techniques already explained including 2 good sprays with Permatex copper coat.

I agree the pressurization did not contribute to failure but I still maintain it is unnecessary. I tour all over the place, 1000 miles at a clip, Mitchell, and never have a problem. The model A engine is so inefficient at fuel combustion that a quick warmup is never a problem. If you live in Alaska I suppose this could be different but in that case just use a stat

The head was resurfaced twice before two gasket changes; it had a slight twist both times. The deck was checked by a machinist and pronounced healthy. The troublesome 6.0:1 head has been substituted for a 5.5:1 head with a copper gasket from Snyder's. The cooling system so far will remain at 9#.
I'll keep everyone updated. Thank you for your help, I very much appreciate the time everyone has spent trying to help.

Chet

[tbirdtbird]

"The head was resurfaced twice before two gasket changes; it had a slight twist both times."

Clearly a problem there.

If the owner keeps doing the same thing he should expect to keep getting the same results. Something is wrong. I'd have the deck re-checked maybe even by a different machinist. A simple straight edge does not get you where you wanna go

If he is not gonna give up on the 9# cap then I would love to know what the operating temp is on this baby. If he is running much over 200 then this is way over design temp and in fact that may be contributing to some warping somewhere. These are not freshly casted blocks; they are 85 yrs old and fatigued by many many temp swings

[Brian T]

I have looked at many leaking head gaskets in my life time and its obvious the gasket is not to blame here. I see many places where gas leaked past the fire rings, I believe the erosion in the middle is from acid etching from exhaust leakage and is not a steel core gasket, its possible the pressure may have had some affect there.
It as to be losing head bolt torque or the cylinder head is collapsing possibly due to poor casting or material, I had to send back the first 5.5. head I received due to a large dimple in #3 combustion chamber and it appeared it had been surfaced by dragging it down a highway.
I should have sent back the second one for several reasons but decided to use it, I used the grey steel core Best gasket with no drips or seepage, and have not experienced any further movement in head bolt torque.
I agree with Growley Bear this is not a Vendor bashing post, but better quality control would be welcome.

[Growley bear]

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Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

"The head was resurfaced twice before two gasket changes; it had a slight twist both times."

Clearly a problem there.

If the owner keeps doing the same thing he should expect to keep getting the same results. Something is wrong. I'd have the deck re-checked maybe even by a different machinist. A simple straight edge does not get you where you wanna go

If he is not gonna give up on the 9# cap then I would love to know what the operating temp is on this baby. If he is running much over 200 then this is way over design temp and in fact that may be contributing to some warping somewhere. These are not freshly casted blocks; they are 85 yrs old and fatigued by many many temp swings

I'll find out about the operating temp. That is a good point.


Chet

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Brian T

I have looked at many leaking head gaskets in my life time and its obvious the gasket is not to blame here. I see many places where gas leaked past the fire rings, I believe the erosion in the middle is from acid etching from exhaust leakage and is not a steel core gasket, its possible the pressure may have had some affect there.
It as to be losing head bolt torque or the cylinder head is collapsing possibly due to poor casting or material, I had to send back the first 5.5. head I received due to a large dimple in #3 combustion chamber and it appeared it had been surfaced by dragging it down a highway.
I should have sent back the second one for several reasons but decided to use it, I used the grey steel core Best gasket with no drips or seepage, and have not experienced any further movement in head bolt torque.
I agree with Growley Bear this is not a Vendor bashing post, but better quality control would be welcome.

The 6.0:1 head has been returned and a 5.5:1 has been installed in it's place.
This post is an effort to gather information from the experience of model A experts and it seems that we are moving in a positive direction. I didn't talk with Tom Snyder but the two guys who own the problem engines have and this post is an effort to help find a problem and correct it so that the end result is a better more reliable replacement part. I understand that there are engineers working on this at present but there is nothing like field tests to aid the engineers in their efforts. Thanks again for your interest and assistance. Lots of good solid experience and advice here,

Chet

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

I'll find out about the operating temp. That is a good point.


Chet

The operating temp is 180 degrees mostly; as high as 190 on a long pull.
One of the A owners who had this problem with two or three head gaskets has since moved on to a Lion lll Speed head and with a few thousand miles has had no more problems. I'll try to find more info on the head gasket. The Lion head is said to be very heavy in that it contains more metal than the Model A head. I don't know about the speed heads and don't want to get off the main topic.

Chet

[tbirdtbird]

I think 180-190 is quite acceptable.

This still bothers me:
"The head was resurfaced twice before two gasket changes; it had a slight twist both times."

Assembly technique is always a possibility. You never really know what someone else does unless you are standing right there. It does seem like these guys know what they are doing, tho.

Have they ever had a problem getting a stock head to seal on any car?

I have to ask.

A related example was a guy at a paint and body seminar that Miles ran who had a problem with fish eye "no matter what he did"

Long story, we had to query him very closely to uncover what he was doing: he would clean his panels with lacquer thinner ( a no-no), then wash the lacquer thinner off with soap and water. Hmm, why would that give fish eye ?!

Please keep us posted we can all learn from this

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

I think 180-190 is quite acceptable.

This still bothers me:
"The head was resurfaced twice before two gasket changes; it had a slight twist both times."

Assembly technique is always a possibility. You never really know what someone else does unless you are standing right there. It does seem like these guys know what they are doing, tho.

Have they ever had a problem getting a stock head to seal on any car?

I have to ask.

A related example was a guy at a paint and body seminar that Miles ran who had a problem with fish eye "no matter what he did"

Long story, we had to query him very closely to uncover what he was doing: he would clean his panels with lacquer thinner ( a no-no), then wash the lacquer thinner off with soap and water. Hmm, why would that give fish eye ?!

Please keep us posted we can all learn from this

The head/heads 6.0:1 with the twist were sent back to the vendor.
Bruce who went to the lion head and has had no trouble since owns a well equipped machine shop and is very meticulous person. He has been in the business for years and the quality of his work is first class.
Ed's engine has since been fitted with the 5.5 head with the Felpro copper gasket and copper coat. So far the head has been retorqued three times over 100 miles and no reported problems.
I will keep everyone updated on this. Thanks again for all the participation with this very interesting subject.
This has been and will continue to be a learning experience.

Chet

[Growley bear]

Update on cylinder head. As stated the 6.1 head was sent back to Snyder's and a 5.5:1 head was installed in its place with the felpro copper gasket and two coats of coppercoat. So far 300 mi.and 3 retorques with only one head nut being taken up about 1/8 inch of a turn.
Snyder's has made this head problem more than right with my friend; so much so that he called and asked Tom if he had made a mistake.
Snyder's is a quality company with quality customer support. Thank You, Tom.

Chet

[Bob Bidonde]

I doubt that this is a cause of the gasket failures. Grade 8 studs are not as elastic as the original studs, so they change the load contribution in the cylinder head and block. The threads in the block, which are the weak link in the joint, have a higher stress levels because of the Grade 8 studs.

[V4F]

The best way to go is with a copper head gasket, sprayed with Copper Coat, and most important, torque the head down in increments starting at 35# then 45# and then 55#, unless you have grade 8 studs and a good block then to 60# hot.

i agree . 7-1 head daily driver , no problems . steve

[Lowbuckboz]

Best money you can spend on an A engine is good head studs.

[V4F]

call your vendor & ask for "BEST" copper crush head gasket . use copper coat on both
sides . running a 7-1 head with no problems using this method ........ steve

[quickchange]

When using either ofsnyders heads CHECK , the copper felpro A gasket will overhang the combustion chamber in the valve area this may cause the engine to sound rough under acceleraion, NOW the felpro B gasket does not have this problem BUT on a 4" bore unlike the A gasket there is not much piston clearance ,
I also have one 6.1 snyder head here that was poorly machined with stud hole 1/2 a hole out ,this would place the head out of aligine on the block, I can put pictures up if you wish to support my claim, Im not getting at anyone just stating what i have & found , Derek in a cool NZ , Please keep the salt dry this year,

[pgerhardt]

It is my understanding that the only reason for a pressurized cooling system is to raise the boiling point and prevent overheating. The same goal can be attained without any increase in pressure by switching to waterless coolant which has a boiling point of 375 degrees F.

http://lubricationspecialist.com/eva...ZJaxoCIFvw_wcB

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by pgerhardt

It is my understanding that the only reason for a pressurized cooling system is to raise the boiling point and prevent overheating. The same goal can be attained without any increase in pressure by switching to waterless coolant which has a boiling point of 375 degrees F.

http://lubricationspecialist.com/eva...ZJaxoCIFvw_wcB

How good is the heat transfer with the waterless coolant? Water is better than anything. There is more to overheating than the boiling point of the coolant.

[pgerhardt]

Jay Leno uses waterless coolant in all his vintage cars and has extolled the benefits of it, especially for non pressurized cooling systems, on his youtube channel. He has the money and technical resources to fully research the topic and has more money invested in vintage automobiles than probably everyone here together.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by mrtexas

How good is the heat transfer with the waterless coolant? Water is better than anything. There is more to overheating than the boiling point of the coolant.

The specific heat of water is about 1.0008 Btu/lb per degree F @212F. The specific heat of waterless coolant (straight ethylene glycol) is about 0.67 Btu/lb per degree F @212F.

If your cooling system is marginal with water and sometimes runs ~200F, you need two things to maintain 200F with waterless: 1) Increased circulation volume to 'move' the same amount of heat away from the block at the same rate. 2) Increased radiator heat dissipation ability. How much more? About 49%.

If you increased your cooling system dissipation capacity you wouldn't need the waterless in the first place! Leaving all as is, placing waterless in that engine will result in it running ~230F at those times it ran 200F with water.

OK, it doesn't boil over with waterless. OK? I think not. Most people have the sense to stop when a boil-over occurs @212F. With waterless and no changes in either your pump rate or radiator capacity you would be running at 254F. Or maybe not- If your engine has standard piston clearances that reduce to near zero @212F, the waterless will give you no warning and you will just seize up.

I'm not much for embracing testimonials, especially from rich comedians with no engineering background. To me it's simple. Fix the problem, not the symptom.

If you want to try this stuff, go ahead. Just watch your temperature like a hawk, and do not think you can run @250F without engine damage. Also, expect it to always run hotter than with water or 50/50 (Sp.Gr. 0.88). Directly from Evans website "The operating temperature of the coolant may increase slightly" . . . Define "slightly".