merc cam price

[ole39]

guess i should have done this 1st, what is a good price for a good 8cm cam? i found one for $150.

[Tim Ayers]

Seems high to me. I would think $50-ish

[KiWinUS]

Tim has it. Used $50 to include shipping.

[ole39]

thanks guys, kinda where i was at.

[tubman]

New or used? After seeing the price of aftermarket and reground cams (which both should have adjustable lifters) these days, I wouldn't be surprised to see NOS cams (especially an 8CM) go for significant money.

Things are very different now than they were even 5 years ago. New Offenhauser heads (if you can even find them), go for $1800.

[Pete]

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Originally Posted by ole39

guess i should have done this 1st, what is a good price for a good 8cm cam? i found one for $150.

$50 for a good core.
$150 for a CHEAP stock regrind.
$200 for a good STOCK regrind.

Any NOS core should be reground at this point. There is NO preservative in existance that could keep it's surfaces good for this long except a full vacuum chamber and think of the cost to have operated a vacuum chamber since 1953.
A lobe surface that appears good to the naked eye will easily be rejected under a microscope.

It is far cheaper to use orginal steel lifters than adjustables. They are far better quality, not to mention they make a far superior finished product.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Pete

$50 for a good core.
$150 for a CHEAP stock regrind.
$200 for a good STOCK regrind.

Any NOS core should be reground at this point. There is NO preservative in existance that could keep it's surfaces good for this long except a full vacuum chamber and think of the cost to have operated a vacuum chamber since 1953.
A lobe surface that appears good to the naked eye will easily be rejected under a microscope.

It is far cheaper to use orginal steel lifters than adjustables. They are far better quality, not to mention they make a far superior finished product.

I need to learn how to do it the "stock" way.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Pete

Any NOS core should be reground at this point.
A lobe surface that appears good to the naked eye will easily be rejected under a microscope.

It is far cheaper to use orginal steel lifters than adjustables. They are far better quality, not to mention they make a far superior finished product.

Now Pete, since YOU brought it up, I'm gonna let you show us just how dumb I really am. Please help me understand how a 70-year-old, NOS cam core is going to be "all messed-up" looking at it under a scope, whereas an ORIGINAL (70-year-old) steel lifter is going to be of better quality than an adjustable? How zat work?

Coop

.

[cjshaker]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Now Pete, since YOU brought it up, I'm gonna let you show us just how dumb I really am. Please help me understand how a 70-year-old, NOS cam core is going to be "all messed-up" looking at it under a scope, whereas an ORIGINAL (70-year-old) steel lifter is going to be of better quality than an adjustable? How zat work?

Coop

.

And how do you control valve clearance then? When a cam is reground, you're going to lose material. Granted, maybe just a few thousandths, but you are still opening up the clearance. Do you sink the valves (not good)? Do you buy new valves and grind to proper clearance (not cheaper, and labor intensive)?


I'm genuinely asking here, not trying to poke.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by cjshaker

And how do you control valve clearance then? When a cam is reground, you're going to lose material. Granted, maybe just a few thousandths, but you are still opening up the clearance. Do you sink the valves (not good)? Do you buy new valves and grind to proper clearance (not cheaper, and labor intensive)?


I'm genuinely asking here, not trying to poke.

You weld the stems and grind to length is how I understand it

[Pete]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Now Pete, since YOU brought it up, I'm gonna let you show us just how dumb I really am. Please help me understand how a 70-year-old, NOS cam core is going to be "all messed-up" looking at it under a scope, whereas an ORIGINAL (70-year-old) steel lifter is going to be of better quality than an adjustable? How zat work?

Coop

.

The marginal cam surface after many years is due to oxidation. While many people get away with using an NOS cam by just washing it off, I have seen enough low mile failures that I would never do it.
Comparing an old NOS cam lobe oxidized surface to a freshly ground one it very obvious the oxidized one is rougher. The mountains and valleys are still about the same height on both but the old ones are more random and rougher.

As to the lifters, the original steel lifters are better for several of reasons.
1 - They are much lighter than cast iron.
2 - They are much stronger than cast iron.
3 - They are faster and easier to install.
4 - NO MANUFACTURER OF ADJUSTABLE LIFTERS HAS YET TO FIGURE OUT
HOW TO 100% ASSURE THE SCREWS WON'T COME LOOSE.

Coop, I have to comment on your statement about "dumb". You just lacked info on the subject. Same as I have very little info on round motors although I love to hear them run. I think you are one of the most knowledgeable people on here.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Pete

Coop, I have to comment on your statement about "dumb". You just lacked info on the subject. Same as I have very little info on round motors although I love to hear them run. I think you are one of the most knowledgeable people on here.

Ya know Pete, I really appreciate the compliment. It ain't that I'm really all that knowledgeable. I think it's more like maybe I have a little more info on a few more subjects than a lot of folks, and that I maybe pay a little bit of extra attention to most of the details, while overlooking the superfluous BS.

Hey, I LOVE round motors, too! So here's one for you. WHY MUST ALL ROUND MOTORS HAVE AN ODD NUMBER OF CYLINDERS PER ROW?

Coop

.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Ya know Pete, I really appreciate the compliment. It ain't that I'm really all that knowledgeable. I think it's more like maybe I have a little more info on a few more subjects than a lot of folks, and that I maybe pay a little bit of extra attention to most of the details, while overlooking the superfluous BS.

Hey, I LOVE round motors, too! So here's one for you. WHY MUST ALL ROUND MOTORS HAVE AN ODD NUMBER OF CYLINDERS PER ROW?

Coop

.

Well there ya are ya see, I never thought about that. Without looking it up, I will take a wag at it and say, cylinder offset so it can't get stuck "on center"???

[cjshaker]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

You weld the stems and grind to length is how I understand it

There's no way that would be cheaper, as claimed. And I'd have to wonder how well the welded tip would hold up unless it was properly re-heat-treated. I like the idea of using the steel lifter; fewer pieces means fewer related problems, but is this actually the way guys are doing it?

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by cjshaker

There's no way that would be cheaper, as claimed. And I'd have to wonder how well the welded tip would hold up unless it was properly re-heat-treated. I like the idea of using the steel lifter; fewer pieces means fewer related problems, but is this actually the way guys are doing it?

Yes, and I'm hoping Pete or others chime in. If you ever look at an old Sioux or similar valve grinder, most have a fixture to grind down the stems square.

From what I recall Walt Dupont explaining, you add length to the valve stem by welding and set the correct height by grinding.

This is what I understand is done when using a reground performance cam with a smaller base circle due to the regrind. Stock cam may be a different process.

[L-head]

Years ago, I had a flathead cam from an old 59A that I tore down for parts. The cam had what looked like air pockets, bubbles, pores throughout the whole cam. It was that way on the lobes and brg surfaces. I could not believe that it had run for years that way and still looked like it was still usable. Has anybody ever seen anything like that? How could that make it through "quality control"?

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by L-head

Years ago, I had a flathead cam from an old 59A that I tore down for parts. The cam had what looked like air pockets, bubbles, pores throughout the whole cam. It was that way on the lobes and brg surfaces. I could not believe that it had run for years that way and still looked like it was still usable. Has anybody ever seen anything like that? How could that make it through "quality control"?

Seen many that way. Hold more oil.

[Kurt in NJ]

Various valve clearance setting fixtures for measuring and using with valve grinder, the grinding machine has a micrometer type adjustment that controls how much is removed from the stem
the one on the top i think came with a B&D machine, it will do T,A,B,60hp, and regular flathead V8, the others won’t do 60hp, one of those sets is Snap On blue point brand

[cjshaker]

Yes, grinding tips is nothing new. It's been done for many, many decades. All the old machines that I've ever seen had that function. But welding them first? Never heard of that, and I have to question it's viability.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by cjshaker

Yes, grinding tips is nothing new. It's been done for many, many decades. All the old machines that I've ever seen had that function. But welding them first? Never heard of that, and I have to question it's viability.

Like I said, I hope Pete, Ronnie, Kiwi Tony or others chime in to explain.

[Zeke3]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

WHY MUST ALL ROUND MOTORS HAVE AN ODD NUMBER OF CYLINDERS PER ROW?.

Because there is a Master rod in a round motor with an equal number of articulating rods on either side of the Master.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

Various valve clearance setting fixtures for measuring and using with valve grinder, the grinding machine has a micrometer type adjustment that controls how much is removed from the stem
the one on the top i think came with a B&D machine, it will do T,A,B,60hp, and regular flathead V8, the others won’t do 60hp, one of those sets is Snap On blue point brand

[5851a]

How long will something last after dipped in cosmoline? Just asking.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by 5851a

How long will something last after dipped in cosmoline? Just asking.

I can answer your question as it pertains to NOS Ford flathead crankshaft rod and main bearings.
I have found Cosmoline will attack the bearing Babbitt surface actually eating away at the surface rendering the bearings junk. Cosmoline will not preserve a surface forever it eventually becomes acidic from what I have seen at least on bearings.
Ronnieroadster

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Like I said, I hope Pete, Ronnie, Kiwi Tony or others chime in to explain.

Tim
I always use adjustable lifters I never tried using the stock lifters on anything I do so I have no experience on this subject. Using stock non adjustable lifters would of course require the valve stem length to be longer to account for the additional lift on a reground cam.

That being said

Using a good quality high tensile strength welding rod to add to the valve stem length would certainly hold up fine especially in a Ford flathead application.
Ronnieroadster

[Pete]

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Originally Posted by cjshaker

There's no way that would be cheaper, as claimed. And I'd have to wonder how well the welded tip would hold up unless it was properly re-heat-treated. I like the idea of using the steel lifter; fewer pieces means fewer related problems, but is this actually the way guys are doing it?

Technology passed you by in the 50's.
In the old days we torch brazed the tips with Eutectic 16fc. No heat treat required.
Now we TIG weld with 347 stainless. No heat treat required.
Machine to length in a lathe with DRO.
For last 20 years we have been using John Deere valves if the customer wants stainless to run nitro. Otherwise it is NASCAR titanium take outs. Neither require welding.
Our lifters have 9 3/8 holes drilled in them and weigh 33 grams.

We only do vintage circle track engines of 321 ci or bigger and we turn them 7200 twice a lap. NO valve train problems. Cam lift in the .450 range.

[cjshaker]

Originally Posted by Pete

Technology passed you by in the 50's.
In the old days we torch brazed the tips with Eutectic 16fc. No heat treat required.
Now we TIG weld with 347 stainless. No heat treat required.
Machine to length in a lathe with DRO.
For last 20 years we have been using John Deere valves if the customer wants stainless to run nitro. Otherwise it is NASCAR titanium take outs. Neither require welding.
Our lifters have 9 3/8 holes drilled in them and weigh 33 grams.

We only do vintage circle track engines of 321 ci or bigger and we turn them 7200 twice a lap. NO valve train problems. Cam lift in the .450 range.

I wasn't even born yet in the '50s, but do have a fair bit of experience with performance engines. Are you talking about flatheads running nitro and turning 7200 rpm? Today, you simply custom order a set of valves with longer stems. Maybe technology has passed you by?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by cjshaker

Are you talking about flatheads running nitro and turning 7200 rpm? Today, you simply custom order a set of valves with longer stems. Maybe technology has passed you by?

The nitro is for Bonneville. Vintage circle racing is limited to alcohol or gas.
As far as the valves, it would seem rather stupid to order a set of valves from yourself.

[5851a]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

I can answer your question as it pertains to NOS Ford flathead crankshaft rod and main bearings.
I have found Cosmoline will attack the bearing Babbitt surface actually eating away at the surface rendering the bearings junk. Cosmoline will not preserve a surface forever it eventually becomes acidic from what I have seen at least on bearings.
Ronnieroadster

Good to know about the bearings, it was a devil to wash off of service parts. I can't remember what it was but ruined the parts washer solvent.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Pete

Well there ya are ya see, I never thought about that. Without looking it up, I will take a wag at it and say, cylinder offset so it can't get stuck "on center"???

Well Pete & Zeke3 ....Fair guesses, I guess, but no free chicken dinners!

For those wondering WTF? I had asked Pete.... "WHY MUST ALL ROUND MOTORS HAVE AN ODD NUMBER OF CYLINDERS PER ROW"?

It's possible that when I added "PER ROW", I may have confused matters. So, let's just imagine any of the simpler SINGLE ROW round motors, which all function on the same theory. For instance, we have the famous Pratt & Whitney R985 9-cylinder "round-motor". I stated that ALL round motors have an odd number of cylinders, per row. Well, the "985" is a single row engine. There is also a 7-cylinder Jacobs, as well as a 5-cylinder Kinner.... ALL with a mandatory odd number of cylinders made-up in configurations of one row each.

All round motors (technically called "radial engines") have odd numbers of cylinders. The question was WHY? It all has to do with firing order. All round motors have #1 cylinder on top (as you face the REAR of engine). The cylinders are numbered as you count them in a CLOCKWISE direction. So, to keep matters simple here, let's look at a Kinner 5-cylinder engine. #1 cylinder is sticking up on top, center. The next cylinder to your RIGHT in the rotation is #2, then continuing on to #3, then around to #4, and eventually ending-up at #5, located to the LEFT of #1 up there on the very top.

Below is a visual of a 5-cylinder round motor. KEEP IN MINDThis one is being seen FROM the Rear. THIS ONE is rotating clockwise.

The actual firing order is 1-3-5-2-4. And you must remember that these are regular old 4-CYCLE engines.

On the 5-cylinder engine, #1 fires, skip ONE cylinder and #3 fires. Then we skip a cylinder and #5 fires. Then we skip #1, and #2 fires. Then we skip #3 and #4 fires. After #4-cylinder fires, the next in line to fire would be #1 since the order skips ONE cylinder (#5) before firing again.

IF you had a 6th cylinder, or any other even number of cylinders, your firing order would never let you get back to #1 cylinder firing.

Make sense now?

Coop



.

[Ronnieroadster]

Coop I have always admired anything air craft related especial radial engines. Heck last month I spent many hours at the Air Museum in Chino enjoying every minute of it. However I never gave much thought to the reason for the odd number of cylinders or the firing order. Your explanation is now etched in my brain I really enjoyed your explanation and visual example.
Ronnieroadster

[Pete]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

[B][I][SIZE="3"]
IF you had a 6th cylinder, or any other even number of cylinders, your firing order would never let you get back to #1 cylinder firing.

Make sense now?

Coop.

Yup. Thanx.
Pete

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Coop I have always admired anything air craft related especial radial engines. Heck last month I spent many hours at the Air Museum in Chino enjoying every minute of it. However I never gave much thought to the reason for the odd number of cylinders or the firing order. Your explanation is now etched in my brain I really enjoyed your explanation and visual example.
Ronnieroadster

Ronnie .... If you spent quality time at Chino, you have seen (and hopefully heard) much of the best that there is. Glad that I was able to help explain something for YOU, for a change.

Coop

.

[KiWinUS]

Coop thanks very much for the explanation. I too have always loved radial engines and been very intrigued by them. My old boss has a T6 with one a spare on a stand and some other kind on a stand. One of the baddest looking I have seen was a staggered multi row in the Curtis museum. Again thanks makes perfect sense.

[mfirth]

I too love radials. From birth untill the early 60s I often rode Ford Tri-motors to Put-In-Bay Ohio. Also watched Super G Constalations do mag checks & run ups at Port Columbus. The sound & smell are GR8, just like our flatheads have their own attributes. They also "mark their territories"..........