Valve Job??

[nkaminar]

Is that corrosion on top of the block or carbon. I cannot tell from the photos. The surface where the gasket goes does not look all that bad. This engine appears to have had a hard life.

[ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

The open valve appears to have good margin, but, the seats are wide and not in too bad a shape. It doesn't look as though the seats have been narrowed.

What are the valve lash measurements ?

Don't know the valve lash. Haven't gone that far yet. Gradually working my way through all of this.

[ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Is that corrosion on top of the block or carbon. I cannot tell from the photos. The surface where the gasket goes does not look all that bad. This engine appears to have had a hard life.

The engine block surface in the combustion chamber is pitted. The surface where the head gasket sits looks good though.

[Kurt in NJ]

The valve doesn’t look to be seating good, the rust pitting would make look for a crack in the seat

[nkaminar]

Also look into installing hardened valve seats.

The pitting in the combustion chamber is not a good sign. The block would have to be machined down (decked) quite a bit to clean it up. I am not sure what your plans for this car are but you could fill in the pits with something like JB Weld if you are going to just drive to the ice cream shop and back, but if extended touring is contemplated then a new engine may be the best route.

[ampico-kid]

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Originally Posted by nkaminar

Also look into installing hardened valve seats.

The pitting in the combustion chamber is not a good sign. The block would have to be machined down (decked) quite a bit to clean it up. I am not sure what your plans for this car are but you could fill in the pits with something like JB Weld if you are going to just drive to the ice cream shop and back, but if extended touring is contemplated then a new engine may be the best route.

Thanks for all of the information. Maybe too much information. I'm not planning on any extended touring, but wouldn't rule it out either. What causes the pitting? Water damage? High heat? ?? This is definitely NOT good news but thanks anyway for all of the expert info.

[johnneilson]

So, after seeing the pictures, here goes another opinion...

The cylinder with most of the corrosion also shows evidence of water in the bore.
It would be safe to assume the rings are corroded and not free to move in the piston grooves (causes rings to not seal). This would warrant more teardown to fully assess the situation (pan off and pistons out, all). Do the investigation before throwing in the towel, these are pretty tolerant motors.

From what I can see on the deck, the corrosion in the chamber area will not compromise any performance or reliability, in fact, if you attempt to deck it off you could leave the deck too thin, and that would cause problems. Another opinion, only add valve seats if absolutely necessary, you are better off going to a slightly larger valve and cutting the existing seats (the deck is thin and seats can cause cracking if not done properly, why take the chance if not necessary).

While you are at it, since the rods and pistons are out, check the mains and make adjustments.

Most of all, have some fun with this, when these cars were made there were very few "mechanics" and these cars survived many "shade tree" mechanics with a selection of hammers.

Best, John

[Terry, NJ]

That valve is toast! Get a new one ASAP. (Bratton's Snyder's, A&L, Mike's Affordable) The rest of the valves in the engine look pretty good and the compression readings seem to bear this out. It seems to me (without looking again) that it was an exhaust valve. Do the intake also. You don't say where you are , so it's hard to direct you to someone. Good Luck!
Terry

[Patrick L.]

Upon 2nd look at the exhaust valve it still doesn't look too bad to me, unless, that is a crack across it. Its hard to tell from the pic as it could just be carbon. Its also hard to see the contact area across the left side of the valve.

But, the low compression on that cylinder isn't from a valve from what I can see. Knowing the lash will help to make sure the valve is closing completely and not starting to burn. There are no signs of burning yet that I see.

[Benson]

I am not saying that Ampico did anything wrong here.

But looking at all the rust damage of block and valves it is just too bad that a previous owner decided to run this engine with just water in the cooling system before Ampico bought it.

Using water instead of antifreeze dameges many engines.

I have never understood how saving a few dollars by not buying antifreeze can possibly be worth it.

Some say that engine runs a few degrees cooler with water. Is it worth it to ruin a perfectly good engine when anitfreeze stops the rusting?

Over the last 60 years I have seen this kind of damage MANY times.

It did not make sense in 1962 but people keep on doing it and recommending that others use water in engines.

WTFO!

Rant over!

[nkaminar]

The severe pitting is a new one on me. Never seen it before. I can only guess that some water sat in the engine or maybe the car was used in a salt water environment like on a boat or in a sea side town, but these are guesses. It seems to be worse at the exhaust valve. Maybe it had to do with the type of fuel that was used which generated an acid when burned. Some of these engines were converted over to run on kerosene. Maybe a long time water leak. Again, these are only guesses.

[Benson]

In the 60s I worked at a place which bought and sold used engines as cores for rebuilders.

The boss looked at the license plates on the car.

If it was from "known water user states" as he put it, the offer on the car was 25% of normal price.

Most of those engines had internal rust damage, including rusted out water jackets where the boring bar broke into the water jacket.

Just another reason to use water!! NOT

[Benson]

This rust problem is so bad that in the 40s 50s and 60s that Paul Garrigan used to "sonic" tested to check water jacket thickness of Cylinder bores on V8 flat heads before he would pay for an engine block that he planned to bore .250 oversize.

The engines he built were .250 inch stroked Mercury cranks and bored 0.250 over bore.

This was the reason for "3 and 7/16ths by 4 " which he had stenciled on the hood of the Black 34 Roadster.

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by ampico-kid

OK...here are a few pictures of the valves and the block.

I would recommend having the block crack checked as it may be cracked in this valve seat. I see alot of water leaked into this cylinder from valve area and stains on cylinder wall. It's a common area on Model A engines for it to crack on exhaust valve seat.
Crack can be repaired but in order to do it right engine would need to come out and valve seats installed and cracks repaired.
Have a look at picture I have enclosed.

[nkaminar]

Benson triggered another idea. Maybe the engine was used in a state that used salt on the roads to get rid of the ice and snow. I was given an engine that sat in a "salt house" used for salting meat. It was completely unusable and went to the junk yard.

[ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

That valve is toast! Get a new one ASAP. (Bratton's Snyder's, A&L, Mike's Affordable) The rest of the valves in the engine look pretty good and the compression readings seem to bear this out. It seems to me (without looking again) that it was an exhaust valve. Do the intake also. You don't say where you are , so it's hard to direct you to someone. Good Luck!
Terry

I'm located in Harpers Ferry, WV.

[ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by J and M Machine

I would recommend having the block crack checked as it may be cracked in this valve seat. I see alot of water leaked into this cylinder from valve area and stains on cylinder wall. It's a common area on Model A engines for it to crack on exhaust valve seat.
Crack can be repaired but in order to do it right engine would need to come out and valve seats installed and cracks repaired.
Have a look at picture I have enclosed.

Thanks for the information and the picture. I'm going to get my magnifying glass out and check very closely around the exhaust valve for cracks. As this discussion moves along I'm becoming convinced that the engine will need to come out for some kind of an overhaul.

Just for the heck of it I checked with Schwalms, a place relatively close to me that does rebuilding. They are within about a 2.5 hrs drive. The problem seems to be time. They told me the engine wouldn't be ready until November. I'm willing to wait a reasonable amount of time, but that seems a bit excessive. Suggestions for quality rebuilders in the Harpers Ferry, WV area? I can pull the engine, and do light mechanical work, but I wouldn't even attempt something like valve replacement. My feeling is this engine is going to need a lot more than valves. Thanks.
.

[nkaminar]

Get a quote. Compare that to a used engine. Check Craigs List, The Swap Meet here on the barn, ebay, the national clubs, and the local clubs. Put up want ads. If you are not going to drive the car across the country that may be the way to go. If you do intend a world tour, consider a Burtz engine.

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by ampico-kid

Thanks for the information and the picture. I'm going to get my magnifying glass out and check very closely around the exhaust valve for cracks. As this discussion moves along I'm becoming convinced that the engine will need to come out for some kind of an overhaul.

Just for the heck of it I checked with Schwalms, a place relatively close to me that does rebuilding. They are within about a 2.5 hrs drive. The problem seems to be time. They told me the engine wouldn't be ready until November. I'm willing to wait a reasonable amount of time, but that seems a bit excessive. Suggestions for quality rebuilders in the Harpers Ferry, WV area? I can pull the engine, and do light mechanical work, but I wouldn't even attempt something like valve replacement. My feeling is this engine is going to need a lot more than valves. Thanks.
.

Yes: You are correct as I see water stains in front cylinder also. Engine has been losing water/sitting for a really long time. Chances are it's not just valve seats it's the entire engine.
We are a engine rebuilder and Model A engine rebuilder. Right now for a Model A engine, about two month turnaround.
Unlike the other "rebuilders" we do all work in house and don't need to wait for anyone. Only problem now regarding parts is camshafts are out of stock.
www.jandm-machine.com
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...2989695&type=3

[ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by J and M Machine

I would recommend having the block crack checked as it may be cracked in this valve seat. I see alot of water leaked into this cylinder from valve area and stains on cylinder wall. It's a common area on Model A engines for it to crack on exhaust valve seat.
Crack can be repaired but in order to do it right engine would need to come out and valve seats installed and cracks repaired.
Have a look at picture I have enclosed.

Took a good look with a magnifying glass and I don't see a crack anywhere around the valve seat. Doesn't mean there isn't one there, but if there is, it's got to be very well hidden. As for the pitting, although you can't clearly see it in my pictures, cylinder 2 looks just as bad as cylinder 3 for pitting, and cylinder 1 is just slightly better. Cylinder 4 is the best of the lot, but it also shows some pretty significant pitting.