Cleaning engine water jacket

[bikemaniac]

Hi,

Based on my post:

http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146271

I just wanted to add a few comments on cleaning the water jacket. I got a few tips, for instance using what you call an aircraft wire - I bought that one and used the drill in reverse. But to sum up:

I think I have removed a total of 3 cups of rust particles, rust scale etc from via the small holes in the block. I am shocked. The engine is still mounted in the car and the job of cleaning is very hard on your back. I guess I have used a total of 10 (ten) hourse cleaning the block now using aircraft wire, screw drivers, special fabricated picks, flexible magnet, water, compressed air. I had to split the work into several days due to frustration and back pain. And I have not reached the part where I use a chemical rust remover yet. I am still mechanically removing rust particles. Every time a flush the jacket with water - and the water comes clean out of the block - I find large amounts of rust by means of my flexible magnet. The water and compressed air is not able to thoroughly flush out the particles.

The main problem is, there are tight spots which you almost cannot reach with any tool. In these spots the rust particles are so dense and compacted that water and compressed air does not touch it at all - only if you can reach it with a metal pick.

The block has 4 small holes approx 1/4" in size. These holes are the most critical ones!! In these holes you will find most dirt and you almost cannot remove it.

I have flushed the water jacket 7x now and basically I am not finished yet, because I am still able to remove dirt with my magnet.

Based on my findings I can say:

1. Most of your engines are probably filled with rust particles and have poor cooling.
2. You will NEVER be able to get dirt and rust particles out of the engine by just flushing it with the head on.
3. You will NEVER be able to get dirt and rust particles out of the engine by using a detergent or an acid=rust remover.

There are so many crevices, tight spots, spots with water turbulence where particles calmly settle.

Lucas

PS: The most important tools for this job is the flexible magnet and the metal pick made of a 10 inch steel wire (being able to bend the wire for better access).

[SteveB31]

We rebuild many Model A engines, and it is amazing how much crap is in the water jackets in the block and in the head. Some have a couple large cups full over rusty garbage.

Use anti freeze to prevent this from happening. Too many years of folks running water in these engines.

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center

[hardtimes]

Hey Lucas,
You could have and still could remove the block from car in the time that you say that you've spent on this job of rust removal...so far. And, you say not done yet..bummer !

I'm going to tell you what I just did and you can use info or ignore it,eh .
I just cleaned a B block and have it into a short block form right now. Another block that I just did rust removal from recently, I put on an engine stand with an ability to turn this block (flathead V12) anyway but loose ! Same for the just done B block. By being able to 'rotisserie' the blocks, when I made some rust removal tools..something like yours, eacn time that I worked rust loose at the BOTTOM of the block, I could then turn block on end and blow and poke loose rust out. It was amazing , the amounts that came out of both blocks. Now the V12 had THREE pan rail plugs,each side, that I popped out. I had to use drills to bore thru the rust , there was that much.
That got me to wondering...if it would be practical to put soft plugs in the new A/B blocks being made...near the bottom of the water jackets Such plugs would, if practical, make for an easy job of rust cleanout.

After being satisfied that I'd taken out all the rust that was possible with primitive tools, the next step in my process was the most satisfying.
Plug up the water jackets..i.e.- head on top and plate off the inlet hole.
Fill the engine block with EVAP-O-RUST, right out of the containers..no diluting. Leave that stuff in the block for couple/few weeks. Then drain your cleaner back into containers for REUSE..yes reuse ! This stuff is safe and has not harmed my hands/clothing ,etc when it got on me (OK, I'm clumsy ,eh ). And NO neutralizer after use either !! WOW ! What rust was left (on walls) was converted and it converted any loose stuff so that it was dark colored mixed in solution.
I am very satisfied that I've done a better derusting job on these too blocks than any other in the past. This stuff does NOT attack good metal...only rust. I use the new style anti-freeze thereafter to keep block clean.

BTW...I guess that you can do the same with block in car...just may not be as thorough.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Lucas,
You could have and still could remove the block from car in the time that you say that you've spent on this job of rust removal...so far. And, you say not done yet..bummer !

I'm going to tell you what I just did and you can use info or ignore it,eh .
I just cleaned a B block and have it into a short block form right now. Another block that I just did rust removal from recently, I put on an engine stand with an ability to turn this block (flathead V12) anyway but loose ! Same for the just done B block. By being able to 'rotisserie' the blocks, when I made some rust removal tools..something like yours, eacn time that I worked rust loose at the BOTTOM of the block, I could then turn block on end and blow and poke loose rust out. It was amazing , the amounts that came out of both blocks. Now the V12 had THREE pan rail plugs,each side, that I popped out. I had to use drills to bore thru the rust , there was that much.
That got me to wondering...if it would be practical to put soft plugs in the new A/B blocks being made...near the bottom of the water jackets Such plugs would, if practical, make for an easy job of rust cleanout.

After being satisfied that I'd taken out all the rust that was possible with primitive tools, the next step in my process was the most satisfying.
Plug up the water jackets..i.e.- head on top and plate off the inlet hole.
Fill the engine block with EVAP-O-RUST, right out of the containers..no diluting. Leave that stuff in the block for couple/few weeks. Then drain your cleaner back into containers for REUSE..yes reuse ! This stuff is safe and has not harmed my hands/clothing ,etc when it got on me (OK, I'm clumsy ,eh ). And NO neutralizer after use either !! WOW ! What rust was left (on walls) was converted and it converted any loose stuff so that it was dark colored mixed in solution.
I am very satisfied that I've done a better derusting job on these too blocks than any other in the past. This stuff does NOT attack good metal...only rust. I use the new style anti-freeze thereafter to keep block clean.

BTW...I guess that you can do the same with block in car...just may not be as thorough.

i suggested that in the original thread. oh well

[Tom Wesenberg]

Each reply is dead on, and after what I've been through with the well used as is engine I put in my 28 Phaeton, I now wish I had removed the head and gone after the rust, rather than assume it was OK to drop in and go.

Can't emphasize enough what Steve said about using antifreeze to prevent rust and freeze cracks. There isn't any state in the union that hasn't seen freezing temps.

[C26Pinelake]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Why not just add this part onto the original post where you got some great advice ? Did you ever use Evaporust as suggested ?
Wayne

[Midwest Tin]

Hi, Could you use EVAP-O-RUST in the cooling system to clean radiator and block at the same time? Or would EVOP-O-RUST attack the radiator solder joints? Jim

[wrndln]

EvapoRust states on the label that is is envionmentally friendly. I would think that it wouldn't attack anything except the rust, but I really don't know. I don't know how you could really tell if the EvapoRust would harm the radiator. I have used EvapoRust and it seems to work better at warmer temperatures. I used some in a crockpot (not my wife's food crockpot) and it removed the a heavy rust on a bumper emblem in about 2 days. I also used vinegar in the crockpot on another rusted item and I did about as good as the EvapoRust and a lot cheaper, but took a little longer. Unfortunately EvapoRust isn't cheap at about $25 per gallon.
Rusty Nelson

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Midwest Tin

Hi, Could you use EVAP-O-RUST in the cooling system to clean radiator and block at the same time? Or would EVOP-O-RUST attack the radiator solder joints? Jim

there is a special evaporust just for running through the cooling system radiator etc..
ck there web site

[ursus]

The worst areas of compacted rust are usually in the rear of the block, which also happens to be the hottest part of the engine and farthest from the inflow and outflow ports. This area is very hard to reach without removing the head. Behind #4 cylinder I have found chunks of rust and debris packed so tightly that coolant couldn't pass through it.

I run vinegar through the engine for a day or two, then flush well with water before starting in with the picks and wire. I also attach a powerful shop vac to the inlet hose and run it periodically as I poke and prod my way through the passages. This is less messy and saves a lot of the time spent flushing with water. The rust chunks make a nice satisfying sound as they rattle down and out the shop vac hose.

[TDO]

Using one if the Digital inspection camera that you can get from harbor freight you can look inside the block to see what your missing. and maybe figure out a way to get to it. At least you can see how good of job your doing. Thay are very resonable priced.

[colin1928]

It is really hard to beat professional hot tanking

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by colin1928

It is really hard to beat professional hot tanking

I agree.

The only down side is you'll need to have new babbit afterwards.

[Ed in Maine]

Has anyone seen a cutaway picture of what it looks like inside the water jacket at the rear of the engine. When I have attempted to rod out and flush the block in the past, I never knew what I was doing in the blind areas. Ed

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Claude has dug stuff out of Flathead V-8's, that he swears, looks like casting sand?? He's also plucked out, what he believes might be support wires that were used in the casting sand??
Bill W.

[Chris Haynes]

I have had great success cleaning water passages by using Muriatic acid (swimming pool acid). I buy it at Home depot. It is cheap and through. After cleaning flush the block well and immediately fill with your anti freeze mix. I have never tried it in a radiator.

[ursus]

Muriatic Acid (AKA Hydrochloric Acid) will dissolve rust very well. It will also dissolve a radiator. I have reservations about using it on engine blocks for two reasons: 1) cast iron is porous and you may not be able to fully neutralize the acid, which may continue attacking the sound iron, and 2) there is this thing called hydrogen embrittlement due to strong acid exposure which may lead to more cracks in the future. Maybe somebody familiar with metallurgy can comment about the risk of hydrogen embrittlement from the use of Muriatic Acid on iron castings?

[Tom Wesenberg]

What ursus just said is also why I wouldn't use such a strong acid for the block or radiator.

Back in the 70's I tried muriatic acid in my uncle's swather radiator, and it opened up about 30 pin holes.

[pgerhardt]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Lucas,
You could have and still could remove the block from car in the time that you say that you've spent on this job of rust removal...so far. And, you say not done yet..bummer !

I'm going to tell you what I just did and you can use info or ignore it,eh .
I just cleaned a B block and have it into a short block form right now. Another block that I just did rust removal from recently, I put on an engine stand with an ability to turn this block (flathead V12) anyway but loose ! Same for the just done B block. By being able to 'rotisserie' the blocks, when I made some rust removal tools..something like yours, eacn time that I worked rust loose at the BOTTOM of the block, I could then turn block on end and blow and poke loose rust out. It was amazing , the amounts that came out of both blocks. Now the V12 had THREE pan rail plugs,each side, that I popped out. I had to use drills to bore thru the rust , there was that much.
That got me to wondering...if it would be practical to put soft plugs in the new A/B blocks being made...near the bottom of the water jackets Such plugs would, if practical, make for an easy job of rust cleanout.

After being satisfied that I'd taken out all the rust that was possible with primitive tools, the next step in my process was the most satisfying.
Plug up the water jackets..i.e.- head on top and plate off the inlet hole.
Fill the engine block with EVAP-O-RUST, right out of the containers..no diluting. Leave that stuff in the block for couple/few weeks. Then drain your cleaner back into containers for REUSE..yes reuse ! This stuff is safe and has not harmed my hands/clothing ,etc when it got on me (OK, I'm clumsy ,eh ). And NO neutralizer after use either !! WOW ! What rust was left (on walls) was converted and it converted any loose stuff so that it was dark colored mixed in solution.
I am very satisfied that I've done a better derusting job on these too blocks than any other in the past. This stuff does NOT attack good metal...only rust. I use the new style anti-freeze thereafter to keep block clean.

BTW...I guess that you can do the same with block in car...just may not be as thorough.

>>I use the new style anti-freeze thereafter to keep block clean.<<

What about using a waterless coolant? There should be absolutely no corrosion with that stuff, plus it boils at 360 degrees!

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

I have had great success cleaning water passages by using Muriatic acid (swimming pool acid). I buy it at Home depot. It is cheap and through. After cleaning flush the block well and immediately fill with your anti freeze mix. I have never tried it in a radiator.

I've used it on the outside of the radiator to clean it prior to soldering. It does a very good job for that. I've never tried it on the inside.