didn't use Permatex Thread Sealant when installing heads

[RandyMettler]

I messed up installing my cylinder heads. Did not know you need to use a non hardening Permatex Thread Sealant on studs. Well you guest, it started leaking out of bolts about 2 hours after adding antifreeze coolant. I drained coolant but am concerned the coolant may have made its way into the cylinders themselves. I used copper gaskets with permatex copper seal spay on booth sides of gasket, two coats. Since I have to take all the nuts off and reinstall with sealant should I take the heads off and check the cylinders? Will this destroy the copper gaskets as the copper spray may stick and tear the gaskets apart? I don't want to spend another 120 on new gaskets for my newbie mistake if it is not necessary.



Regards


Mentally challenged Randy

[Pete]

...

[Kube]

Randy,
I can tell you that while the use of thread sealant would have been prudent, I would not fear. I am guessing your are getting leakage at the head nuts. Yes?
If so, what you are experiencing is what even the most seasoned flatty rebuilder encounters with frequency.

I'd suggest two things before removing studs and / or heads.

One: run the engine up to operating temperature a total of three times. In between each cooling down period, properly torque the heads again.

Two: introduce an aluminum powder sealer to the cooling system. Use the instructed amount for your coolant system's capacity and run the engine as the directions dictate.


You will most likely be amazed in how well the studs seal.

[RandyMettler]

Kube,


Thanks for your help. "One: run the engine up to operating temperature a total of three times. In between each cooling down period, properly torque the heads again."


So to get the engine up to operating temperature you need coolant in the block? If so, I add aluminum powder when replacing the coolant and run three times? I assume coolant will be slowly leaking out the nuts on the bolts as I go through the stepped procedure. I incorrectly said I have bolts but I have studs with nuts. Could it hurt to also use Pete's advice first before preforming your fix? When I get help from Senior members I try and take all advice.


I don't know what I would do without the help of Ford Barn and its followers!

[flatjack9]

I would just use water while doing this. Leave the anti-freeze out. Put the powder in after the 3 runs.

[Drbrown]

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The last time I did a flathead rebuild and head gaskets was in the 1950's and things are not so sharp in my mind. Regarding head gaskets, I think I've seen some forum members say they use grease on the head gaskets instead of a "sealer" type compound. Is grease an option for the head gaskets ? Or maybe the reference I saw was for different types of gaskets.

[leon bee]

Regarding the copper head gaskets; no worry there if you were to remove the heads. Coppercoat isn't going to pull them apart.

[tubman]

After reading about it on this and other forums, I used regular grease on the head gaskets of my last two builds with no leaks or other problems. I no longer use sealer on the gaskets, but do use the Permatex thread sealer on the headbolts. I have been reading that there might be something better, but I already have the Permatex and have never had a problem.

[Kube]

[QUOTE=RandyMettler;1716636]Kube,


Thanks for your help. "One: run the engine up to operating temperature a total of three times. In between each cooling down period, properly torque the heads again."


So to get the engine up to operating temperature you need coolant in the block? If so, I add aluminum powder when replacing the coolant and run three times? I assume coolant will be slowly leaking out the nuts on the bolts as I go through the stepped procedure. I incorrectly said I have bolts but I have studs with nuts. Could it hurt to also use Pete's advice first before preforming your fix? When I get help from Senior members I try and take all advice.
Randy, Yes, run it three times before doing anything else (like adding sealant) as Pete and I have advised. Once you've run it up to temp (yes, with coolant) and torqued (once cooled back down), THEN add the sealant. It won't hurt anything and stays in motion unless it is needed at a leak point.

Many guys fear clogging issues with sealant. This doesn't happen with the aluminum powder sealers.

[Seth Swoboda]

Randy,

I have built a few flathead V8's over the years. I experience this problem to a degree with every one. I would first use Kube's method. What you have going on is normal so don't panic.

[RandyMettler]

Thanks again for all your help.

Any thoughts on bumping up the nut torque from 40 to 50 or 55 foot pounds?
My block is a 8BA

Just a thought, I torqued all the nuts on the offy's aluminum heads to 40 foot pounds as per Vanpelts tune up info. When I first removed the heads the nuts seemed to be torqued down much tighter than 40 pounds. It could have been due to the amount of time since last installed. I am tempted to re-torque to 50 or 55 but fear that may stress the block and could crack it. The heads were not leaking before I removed them, so leaks are not from warped heads. I took them off to check valve clearance.

[1931 flamingo]

If worried about leaks around the nuts, "tweak" each one to make sure tight before following above mentioned method of retorquing 3 times. FWIW

Are there washers under the nuts??
Paul in CT

[Kube]

Originally Posted by RandyMettler

Thanks again for all your help.

Any thoughts on bumping up the nut torque from 40 to 50 or 55 foot pounds?
My block is a 8BA

Just a thought, I torqued all the nuts on the offy's aluminum heads to 40 foot pounds as per Vanpelts tune up info. When I first removed the heads the nuts seemed to be torqued down much tighter than 40 pounds. It could have been due to the amount of time since last installed. I am tempted to re-torque to 50 or 55 but fear that may stress the block and could crack it. The heads were not leaking before I removed them, so leaks are not from warped heads. I took them off to check valve clearance.

I personally would not exceed 45# with aluminum heads.
Tightening them down beyond that won't do your leakage issue any good.
As has been asked and as yet unanswered, "do you have washers beneath the nuts"? If not, you need them...

[AnthonyG]

Reading thru this thread caused me to realize I over-torqued the head bolts on my 8BA aluminum heads. several yrs ago when I was seeing coolant seepage at a couple of the head bolts. I looked up the spec and went with 65 to 70 ft lbs. Never thought about it again til now seeing lower torque recommendations for aluminum heads. Probably at this point it would do more harm than good to loosen one at a time and re-torque to lower range for aluminum heads?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

Reading thru this thread caused me to realize I over-torqued the head bolts on my 8BA aluminum heads. several yrs ago when I was seeing coolant seepage at a couple of the head bolts. I looked up the spec and went with 65 to 70 ft lbs. Never thought about it again til now seeing lower torque recommendations for aluminum heads. Probably at this point it would do more harm than good to loosen one at a time and re-torque to lower range for aluminum heads?

IF there was any damage done by over torqueing your heads, well, it's already been done.
I would not, under any circumstance, loosen them now.
If and when you must remove a head, I'd suggest you have it checked for "trueness" prior to reinstalling it.
And, no way would I even consider reusing the gaskets. Of course, I'd never reuse one anyway...

[RandyMettler]

1931 Flamingo and Kube,


Thanks for the questions. Yes, I have nice thick washers under the nuts. And Kube, if you were in this situation you would not reinstall your heads if the gaskets and copper coats look good? Instead buy new ones? I am going to use the tread sealer under, over the washers and around the stud that stick out of the cylinder head. If I coat anything lower than that on the studs, I fear It will be near impossible to get the heads off in the future. I have never used the sealer and don't know if it sets up like silicone or is more like a thick water resistant grease. I'll see tomorrow when I buy some.
Thanks to your input, now I am not going to torque beyond 40. If I still have leaks, I will try the powder aluminum. My only reason for not going that route first is tube videos tend to swing toward that as a temp fix.



Regards, and thanks for all your input and time.

[JSeery]

There would be no reason to do what you are considering, it would accomplish nothing and make a mess. If the coolant sealant and heat cycles and re-torque doesn't work, you can remove the studs one at a time and seal the threads when you reinstall them. The thread sealant needs to be between the stud threads and the block threads. If there is any concern about the head gasket itself not sealing do a leak down test and see what it shows.

[RandyMettler]

"There would be no reason to do what you are considering"


Right on, that's exactly why I posted the last comment. I'm not really sure how the thread sealant would fix the leaks. I have threaded studs not head bolts. I don't even know if I could get the studs out of the block without ruining them and possible the block. I think they are cemented in. Unless I am mistaken, the permitex will not do a whole lot. For it to work, you need the threads to thread into something other than just the nuts at the top of the cylinder heads. That's why I explained what I planned on doing. I was hoping for input.

I have done tube research on the aluminum powder and it seams it has the potential of creating a mess inside the radiator. In my case my aluminum radiator cost more than 1000 dollars and is brand new. I'm not sure if my research on the aluminum powder is correct information, but am still looking for the best options. One guy sectioned an old heater core that had the powder run through it an it looked like clay had been shoved into the cooling tubes.


A final note. I didn't mention that I have the small block cracks running in the thin areas between some of the head bolts and the water jacket holes.



Thanks JSeery

[flatford8]

Your first post said you didn’t know to use thread sealant......your last post you state you think the studs are “cemented” in ?????.....the sealant goes on the stud to block area.....not on the washer/nut area.....I don’t know, maybe I’m confused now?....Mark
P.S. if your block has those small cracks...all the more reason to not over-torque.

[chap52]

"Are there washers under the nuts??"

[Kube]

Originally Posted by RandyMettler

1931 Flamingo and Kube,


Thanks for the questions. Yes, I have nice thick washers under the nuts. And Kube, if you were in this situation you would not reinstall your heads if the gaskets and copper coats look good? Instead buy new ones? I am going to use the tread sealer under, over the washers and around the stud that stick out of the cylinder head. If I coat anything lower than that on the studs, I fear It will be near impossible to get the heads off in the future. I have never used the sealer and don't know if it sets up like silicone or is more like a thick water resistant grease. I'll see tomorrow when I buy some.
Thanks to your input, now I am not going to torque beyond 40. If I still have leaks, I will try the powder aluminum. My only reason for not going that route first is tube videos tend to swing toward that as a temp fix.



Regards, and thanks for all your input and time.

Randy,
The aluminum sealant enters the cooling system (radiator). It stays in circulation until / unless it finds a leak. If and when it finds a leak, it fills that void.
If it finds no leaks, it stays in circulation.
Please, just do the three heat cycles / re-torque, add the sealer and drive this thing for a bit.

[JSeery]

Randy, I would follow Kube's advice, he is someone with years of flathead experience. Internet searches are great, but you have no idea who is posting what and how valid the information is. There are a lot of folks here on the Barn with a lifetime of flathead experience, you can't find a better source on information!

I am interested in how the studs are "cemented" in if nothing was put on them during installation? If they are "cemented" in it would not be likely that they were leaking.

I have used stop-leak products in many engines over the years for different issues with good success.

[RandyMettler]

I did not install the threaded studs in the block. The previous owner did. I have an 8BA block, which I think all had head bolts from the factory. I believe somewhere along the way, for whatever reason, someone decided to switch to the head studs.

Yes I do have thick washers under the nuts.
I agree with Flatford8 on not over torquing, especially due to the small cracks.
I am going to try to remove one of the studs today with vice grips. If they come out okay I will get new studs or maybe switch to head bolts. Then reseal with thread sealant where the bolts or studs thread into the block. If the studs are suborn, Ill leave them in an add the powder aluminum regardless.


Thanks again

[JSeery]

I would not use vice grips on a head stud unless it was a last resort. Double jam nuts is the best approach to remove studs. So have you tried the other suggestions prior to pulling a stud?

[RandyMettler]

JSeery


That is exactly what I have decided to do. I purchased two tubes of the alumaseal powder and will fill the radiator with water and add a tube and a half of the stuff. I have one head off and pulling the studs will get all kinds of debris on the copper seal spray and ruin the gasket. The gasket still looks good so I am going to reinstall the head and give the alumaseal a fair chance with three warm/cool cycles.


From all your advice, I believe it will work just fine without the hassle of pulling the head studs and resealing their threads. After all, I did not start this job because of leaking heads. The original head gaskets sealed fine.


Regards

[Angledrive]

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Good choice!

[Jack E/NJ]

I've found that liberally slathering wheeling bearing grease on all surfaces & threads helps prevent such leaks among other advantages. Jack E/NJ

[RandyMettler]

You are not the first senior member to suggest wheel bearing grease to seal leaks at cylinder heads. That leads me to believe that method is tried and true. The only thing I cant wrap my mind around is the cooling system is under a lot of pressure and grease is very fluid.

Man I wish I could hang around with a bunch of you in a garage and listen to all your stories from back in the day.


Do or do not, there is no try!

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by RandyMettler

The only thing I cant wrap my mind around is the cooling system is under a lot of pressure and grease is very fluid.

Your thinking modern, these systems are not pressurized, so very little pressure (unless it has been modified to a later radiator system). About the only pressure is that from the water pumps. The later flatheads did use a low pressure radiator cap, but still far less than a modern engine.

[Jack E/NJ]

>>>grease is very fluid.>>>

Nope. Doesn't flow too good either. Stays packed in wheel bearings that are flinging around pretty fast, sometimes pretty hot too. Jack E/NJ

[RandyMettler]

Well it is good that you mention this. I have a new Griffin Aluminum radiator with the pressure cap and the relief valve that is supposed to suck fluid back into the radiator when the block cools. Is that considered a modern coolant system? I installed an overflow tube canister because it was pucking fluid out of the overflow tub when the engine got overly hot. I could be wrong, but maybe this is why I am now having fluid seeping out of the head studs when I did not with the original radiator. It was definitely not pressurized.

[RandyMettler]

"Nope. Doesn't flow too good either. Stays packed in wheel bearings that are flinging around pretty fast, sometimes pretty hot too. Jack E/NJ"



Thanks for your help. Sorry about my original response. I missed your comment about slathering wheel bearing grease on all surfaces and threads. The tread idea sounds like good insurance.


Regards

[JSeery]

What pressure cap are you using?

[Marvin/TN]

I use a GM product, it isn't cheap, but works, comes in a tube like toothpaste, but has teflon in it made for bolts that go through to the water jacket.
At the moment I can't remember the part number, would have to go out to the shop to get it and it's raining at the moment.

[topfuel724]

Kube, what brand of sealant would you suggest for the cooling system?

[RandyMettler]

JSeery,


Regarding

"What pressure cap are you using?"

It is a Speedway Spectre 4338 Hexagon Chrome Radiator Cap. I believe it is 11 PSI, if I remember correctly. I have attached a couple of pictures of the cap and radiator setup. I believe it is pretty standard.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by RandyMettler

JSeery,


Regarding

"What pressure cap are you using?"

It is a Speedway Spectre 4338 Hexagon Chrome Radiator Cap. I believe it is 11 PSI, if I remember correctly. I have attached a couple of pictures of the cap and radiator setup. I believe it is pretty standard.

Ok, this is a higher pressure cap. Not the norm for the flatheads, but should be fine.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by topfuel724

Kube, what brand of sealant would you suggest for the cooling system?

I use Alumiseal, a powdered aluminum product when necessary. It stays in suspension unless / until it finds a leak. Thus, there are no concerns of clogging a system.