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Old 09-10-2014, 03:28 PM   #101
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Originally Posted by Bolts View Post
Craig, how big are the biggest chunks and are they steel or aluminum?
The picture shows the oil drain plug that is magnetized to give some scale to the size of the chunks and none of them are stuck to the magnet so they are not iron but something else.
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Old 09-10-2014, 03:31 PM   #102
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Professor, the best thing you are doing here is using the services of a reputable, trusted automotive machinist to do this rebuild. I was glad to see you "took a pass" on the services of a guy who had volunteered to help. Maybe the cooch could have done the job but the guy you selected came with references. What do they say on the TV commercial? Pay me now or pay me later.
In defense of the cooch, he was not actually going to repair the engine but had contacts with others in Colorado that would do the job. He actually had an engine to exchange for mine if I wanted to.

I greatly appreciate his and others' offers to help.
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Old 09-10-2014, 03:32 PM   #103
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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I would suggest getting an original 9" or 10" (whichever size that setup takes) core pressure plate and clutch disk to send to Fort Wayne for rebuild rather than use the assembly shown here that just came out of the car for the core. Depending on the manufacturers origin of the C&PP shown, Fort Wayne may refuse to rebuilt that core anyway.
Fort Wayne has the clutch for my car on the shelf and will send it the day they get mine rather than rebuilding mine.
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Old 09-10-2014, 03:48 PM   #104
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry, It appears to me as if that flywheel and pressure plate is junk.
If the flywheel has already been ground twice, it is most likely near the end of its specified life. That heat checking... well, it will be difficult to remove properly.
As you must certainly have realized by now, the labor is the costly part of repairing this stuff properly.
Parts are fairly reasonable.
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Old 09-10-2014, 04:55 PM   #105
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Fort Wayne has the clutch for my car on the shelf and will send it the day they get mine rather than rebuilding mine.
I would guess putting any clutch plate back in with the existing pressure plate will end with the same result! I would be much more concerned with the pressure plate (and the flywheel).
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:49 PM   #106
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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I would guess putting any clutch plate back in with the existing pressure plate will end with the same result! I would be much more concerned with the pressure plate (and the flywheel).
The clutch includes the pressure plate and clutch disc.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:36 AM   #107
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

That clutch looks very light duty. I thougt a 10" 9 spring clutch was stock for your car. I would not put anything but a 10" back in. The one you took out might be for a 60 horse. I would also get another flywheel due to the heat checking.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:03 AM   #108
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

When you install the clutch, block the pressure plate fingers to release the pressure on the disc. Tighten all of the bolts and then remove the blocks. This will help prevent warping the pressure plate. A warped pressure plate will cause chatter.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:26 PM   #109
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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That clutch looks very light duty. I thougt a 10" 9 spring clutch was stock for your car. I would not put anything but a 10" back in. The one you took out might be for a 60 horse. I would also get another flywheel due to the heat checking.
The clutch is 10" and stock style.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:47 PM   #110
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Well, here's the culprit:



On the left is the bearing for the front two pistons as it came off of the engine, worn and broken. On the right is the bearing from the next set of pistons that isn't in as bad of shape but still showing wear.

The mystery is all of the metal in the oil pan. It seems like more than what would have come off of this one worn out bearing.

Another mystery is what caused it to wear out and how to prevent it from doing so again.

That worn out bearing looked like a quick fix to me - just pop a new bearing in, put it back together and back in the car and let me get "on the road again." Might even have been done from underneath without removing the engine. Good thing I'm not in charge.

Paul took the whole crankshaft out to check it for wear. It turns out that the bearing surfaces need turning again but if that is done bearings are no longer available to fit it. In other words, the crankshaft is worn out and shouldn't be used any more. That was the bad news.

The good news is that I still have the original crankshaft for that engine that has never been worked and has its original surfaces. Paul was a bit shocked when I brought it in. The surfaces measured 1 thousandth wear is all, plenty of surface to clean up and fit with new bearings for many more miles to come.

The other bad news was that, when the oil pump was removed, there were metal particles all in it



and the oil pump well.



Somehow particles from the disintegrated bearing made it through the oil pump screen and into the oil passages, meaning that such particles were being pumped by the oil through all of the wear surfaces. That's bad. So, what looked like just a bottom end job turns into an entire tear down to clean out all of the metal particles from all of the oil passages and replacing the oil pump before we're done.

Other good news is that the pistons and cylinders looked fine and could have been left alone but for needing to tear down to rinse the metal fragments out of everything.

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Last edited by Old Henry; 09-11-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:55 PM   #111
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Paul is willing to let me get the parts to save his profit on them. He will tell me the size of bearings I need to get when the crankshaft gets machined. So, my question is, are all bearings created equal or are there some that are better than others and, if so, where do I get them?

Same thing for oil pumps. Any sources have better ones than others?
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:56 PM   #112
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I can't say that I've ever seen a bearing shell completely broken in half!
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:00 PM   #113
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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I can't say that I've ever seen a bearing shell completely broken in half!
When I first started this engine after it sat for 31 years it had a knock at idle and the oil pressure was low. When I had it rebuilt after 10,000 miles all of the bearings were split in two.
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:03 PM   #114
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:05 PM   #115
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Split bearings are NOT NORMAL the tolerances were wrong somewhere! Gary
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:09 PM   #116
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Could be just the angle and the lighting, but those bores sure do look shiney/smooth. Did the last "rebuilder" hone the cylinders the last time around? Sure do hope the proper rod caps end-up back on their respective rods. Pictures sure make one wonder if he knew anything about setting-up floating bearings. DD
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:15 PM   #117
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Oh man, that's some scary stuff! I hope your rebuilder can get Old Henry back on the road quickly.
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:19 PM   #118
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Split bearings are NOT NORMAL the tolerances were wrong somewhere! Gary
That is Paul's diagnosis of the bearing failure. He keeps emphasizing how critical the clearances are for floating bearings and how any extra gap can cause them to fail prematurely. That's why he's putting so much effort into measuring, truing, and sizing all bearings and surfaces.
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Old 09-11-2014, 03:21 PM   #119
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary
Right on! Let the man who knows how to build the engine get the best bearings that he can find for the job. Why nickel and dime this and possibly have something go wrong again. Same thing with the oil pump. Let him get a quality (USA made if possible) oil pump and test it before it goes in the engine. JMO
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:06 PM   #120
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I agree with the others, let the builder get the parts.

Bob
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