Another myth put out to pasture

[Tinker]

Classic ford barn discussion.

Another forum same thing...
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/37...storage-2.html

[GB SISSON]

My crank has been unsupported for 62 years. At this point it is neither straight nor round, but all my flathead V8s run great with a minimum of attention. This has been a great and relaxing hobby. I jump behind the wheel, fire one of 'em up and race around having a good time. I have a micrometer, but it doesn't get out of it's case very often. It is supposed to be fun. It's a hobby. .003 isn't very much, and it grinds out, so we should all just do it how we like. If the saggy crank guys break down, they are the ones who have to walk home. I actually store mine upright because they take up less room!

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Kube

Bill, I have an extensive background in tool & die. State indentured. I also have a degree in metallurgy. Spent many years as a tool maker, in charge of quality control of the tooling produced and requisite laboratory inspections of steel, etc.
That being understood (I hope) I can say with certainty that standing a crankshaft on end is the best way to store them.

Ya know, lots of different ways 'work". However, there is only one "best" way.
I try to keep in mind that not everyone graduated at the top of their class. Heck, judging by many of the posts herein, I have to wonder just how many actually graduated.

Kube Boy you've got that right!
Bill

[Old Henry]

I've just been studying these perpetual motion machines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287qd4uI7-E.



Seems like the best approach would be to mount each crank to be stored on some kind of rotisserie apparatus powered by a perpetual motion machine (would probably need to be part of the totally balanced machine) to turn it continually without the use of any power for eternity and prevent sagging. Huh?

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Kube

Bill, I have an extensive background in tool & die. State indentured. I also have a degree in metallurgy. Spent many years as a tool maker, in charge of quality control of the tooling produced and requisite laboratory inspections of steel, etc.
That being understood (I hope) I can say with certainty that standing a crankshaft on end is the best way to store them.

Ya know, lots of different ways 'work". However, there is only one "best" way.
I try to keep in mind that not everyone graduated at the top of their class. Heck, judging by many of the posts herein, I have to wonder just how many actually graduated.

Well you learn something every day! I bow to your superior knowledge . Never to old to learn . I guess thats why I to graduated top of my class as well . However my class was fixing people rather than engines . In medicine we also find that our patients are better if they are upright and we use viagra to fix sagging in 50% of the population LOL Karl

[Tinker]

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Originally Posted by Kube

Bill, I have an extensive background in tool & die. State indentured. I also have a degree in metallurgy. Spent many years as a tool maker, in charge of quality control of the tooling produced and requisite laboratory inspections of steel, etc.
That being understood (I hope) I can say with certainty that standing a crankshaft on end is the best way to store them.

Ya know, lots of different ways 'work". However, there is only one "best" way.
I try to keep in mind that not everyone graduated at the top of their class. Heck, judging by many of the posts herein, I have to wonder just how many actually graduated.

Okay we have credentials out of the way, but as they say in grade school "show your work"

I don't disbelieve you, but I have only heard the argument of "because, that's why".

This is a hobby for me but it would be interesting to know why....

[outlaw]

I love this site, & I visit here many times each day. But sometimes I think that some of you guys have waaaaay too much time on your hands.

[flatheadmurre]

Ok lets do some science then.
If we have a piece of metal and dont go high enough on the wöhler curve it should go back to its initial shape...can we all agree on that ?
That means a crank stored in any way shouldnt deform by the weight only...
So there must be something more to this equation.
Castiron has something called aging and the theory in this case must be that the force bending the crank combined with aging should give a permanent warp.
Next step is to find out how much a crank bend from its own weight in a worse case scenario.
What timeframe is needed to make this permanent.
Now the metalurgy pros have to crunch me some hard numbers to prove their case.

[CT AV8]

How about a wooden cradle that supports the crank at each main bearing point for horizontal storage. You could use the bottom end as a pattern. It seems to me that would most closely mimic the way the crank is structurally loaded in an engine. With a little extra carpentry, the cradles could be palletized for stacking. I'm sure somebody's done this already.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Ok lets do some science then.
If we have a piece of metal and dont go high enough on the wöhler curve it should go back to its initial shape...can we all agree on that ?
That means a crank stored in any way shouldnt deform by the weight only...

A "Wohler" curve, sometimes also referred-to as an "S-N curve", is a means to plot or graph the magnitude of cyclical stress against the scale of cycles to the point of failure in a piece of steel. A "Wohler curve" specifically, has NOTHING to do with "meaning a crank stored in any way shouldn't deform by the weight only". DD

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

A "Wohler" curve, sometimes also referred-to as an "S-N curve", is a means to plot or graph the magnitude of cyclical stress against the scale of cycles to the point of failure in a piece of steel. A "Wohler curve" specifically, has NOTHING to do with "meaning a crank stored in any way shouldn't deform by the weight only". DD

From that you can get what force you can apply without any permanent changes.
But lets say im totally wrong and give me some hard numbers that says how much and how fast a crank deform.
And why it does so !

[alchemy]

Originally Posted by CT AV8

How about a wooden cradle that supports the crank at each main bearing point for horizontal storage.

If the myth that an unsupported cast iron crank will bend due to prolonged exposure to gravity is true, do you really think some lightweight wood will keep the cast iron from bending? Wood's density is WAY less than cast iron, and even cast iron can't hold up to gravity. The wood will probably be pulverized.







.

[Tony, NY]

Where are The MythBusters when you need them?
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/

[Ricardo39]

This is getting interesting, so...what about the storage of an engine block? If gravity can distort a crankshaft, can I think that a block in vertical position could suffer the same effect?

[Ronnie]

Whats next

[flatjack9]

OK , who's willing to measure a cranks run out, then store it laying flat for 20 years and report back your results? Then we'll all know( well whoever is still around). Personally I'm not going to worry about it.

[al pa.]

great response 47 COE.

[GB SISSON]

One of my flathead rebuild books has a diagram showing a plank with 3 blocks of wood attached to a perhaps 1" plank. The 3 blocks are cut into a 'vee' shape at each journal. Not being any kind of metalurgist or real mechanic, but a career woodworker, I thought nobody could build that accurately enough to make it support evenly. Even if it was originally built by a professional woodworker with extreme precision on jigs and fixtures, the blocks would shrink and swell at different rates and with the 'vee' design, shrinkage or swelling would raise or lower the support on the journal at the whim of the atmospheric conditions. Three steel tabs welded to an I beam might work if you ground the center one and used a feeler gauge when checking the center one but....zzzzzzzzzzzzz why?

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

OK , who's willing to measure a cranks run out, then store it laying flat for 20 years and report back your results? Then we'll all know( well whoever is still around). Personally I'm not going to worry about it.

Yep I think you have it. Maybe ford hung they're cranks becuase it was cheaper then creating a series of main supports for every crank or that it works. Who knows. Do what works for you.

I will take all merc 4" cranks laying anyway they are if ya want to drop them off. I'll sort them out at my cost.

I don't think anyone is wrong here I just think we all have different ways and respect that.

[itslow]

Originally Posted by Ricardo39

This is getting interesting, so...what about the storage of an engine block? If gravity can distort a crankshaft, can I think that a block in vertical position could suffer the same effect?

It'll make the cylinders go oval and make the block unusable.

Originally Posted by Tinker

Yep I think you have it. Maybe ford hung they're cranks becuase it was cheaper then creating a series of main supports for every crank or that it works. Who knows.

Cranks were originally hung or set on end for space conservation and ease of storage, plain and simple. Imagine how much floor space would be consumed if the cranks were stored horizontally.