Business Coupe vs. Sport Coupe

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

I have what I think, or was told, is an early '29 Sport Coupe. When I bought the car from the original owners son, the top material was gone and he said it was a Sport Coupe. After looking at alot of pictures and doing some research, I'm not sure if it is a Sporty or Business Coupe. There is no evidence of it ever having Landau bars. It's never been modified in any way that I can see.

Is there any way to tell? Here's a few pics of the car, see what you guys think. I posted this question on another thread, but hate to hijack someone elses post.

Thanks,
Kevin

[PO51]

Kevin,
Not to worry I think it was my post {PO51} we are all friends here and just trying to learn and share info. You have interesting pics as I said in the other post never seen a Business Coupe with that center bow or a Sport Coupe with that bracket. I hope someone can shed some light on this!
Steve

[Aerocraft]

Just the fact that it has not had landau irons should identify the car as a Business Coupe. Except for the lack of hardware for oval windows, the top framing appears to be the same as a good friends '29 oval window business coupe. I recently removed and replaced the car's fabric top in order to repair rotten stitching.

Here is a picture of the inside of a oval window Business Coupe off of the forum. You can see the framing is identical except for the window. Search the threads for Business Coupe for more pictures. Gar Williams

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

How about the main hoop? Mine comes all the way down behind the door frame. So, I guess that means it didn't have the oval windows.

Were the oval windows an option? Some had them and some didn't. Right? From the small fragments left of the top material, it was black. Just like the body and wheels. Is it odd that everything was black?

[700rpm]

The oval windows were standard for business coupes after about February 1929 (I haven't been able to confirm when they went into actual production, but around hat time; before that, there were no windows). The correct roof material, according to the judging Standards, was black long-short grain top material. The black car on the right (above message) would be a 1928 business coupe. The car in the middle series looks like the oval window is not correct (too small), but it's hard to tell from a photo.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

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The car on the right is a '28 Business coupe. My car was built in Feb '29. according to the stamping on the firewall.

[Aerocraft]

I believe the window size of the oval window business coupe that I posted is correct. The middle picture of the windows in the OoltewahSpeedShop posting do appear to be too small. Gar Williams

[PO51]

I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that until Ford installed the oval windows the brackets and wood bows were the same on both the Sport Coupe and Business Coupe. The new oval window required the new curved metal bracket with the metal support to hold the shortened center/back bow. Hopefully someone with a early 29 Business Coupe can shed some light.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Aerocraft

I believe the window size of the oval window business coupe that I posted is correct. The middle picture of the windows in the OoltewahSpeedShop posting do appear to be too small. Gar Williams

Gar, that is my coupe in your picture, and the windows are correct, though we determined a couple days ago that they are not in exactly the right position (tilted a little too far forward, and placed a little too far forward). But the top is good and the windows are going to stay that way until I (or somebody) change the top!

[Lycoming-8]

Our 54-A Business coupe was assembled in Feb of 1929, and has no oval window. The 2nd bow, which is set diagonally, runs all the way to the corner behind the door and above the belt line. In the same way as the Sport coupe, it attaches to two triangular metal brackets fastened in that corner.

The car is fitted with the squeeze type hand brake lever right in front of the shifter, has one drum tail light, and the older style headlites without the parking lite. It also has an electric windshield wiper and no vacuum port on the intake manifold. There is no evidence that landau irons were ever applied to the car, IT IS a Business coupe!!

Although I have seen several of the oval window cars over the years, this is the only early style car that I have personally seen. They must not be very numerous at this point in time.

[PO51]

Lycoming-8,
Does you BC have the curved bracket like it shows in the pictures at the begining of this post? I have never seen that combination of brackets and bows on a BC or SC?

[John Stone]

A couple of pictures of the interior of my Business Coupe. Being early 28, a couple of things concerning the top interior is slightly different from the later 28's.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

So.... From what I see, my car was definitely pre oval window because of the full top bow. In '29 they obviously went to the full rounded bar from the window post down to the 1/4 panel vs. the short bar on John's black car. The triangle bracket in the corner of the door post-1/4 panel area looks alot smaller on my car and John's then the later oval window cars. I checked it thoroughly again today and there is no evidence of Landau bars.

Does all this sound right? If so, I'm fairly certain what I have here is a EARLY '29 Business Coupe rather than a Sporty.

[PO51]

Kevin,
I think you are correct, I have just never seen the curved metal brackets and the full bow used together must have been for a very short time. My March 1929 BC had the short bow, curved brackets and oval windows or so I was told by the orig. owner who took them off and through them away so he could drive it like a "open" car"!

[700rpm]

"so I was told by the orig. owner who took them off and through them away so he could drive it like a "open" car"!"

Oh, that just hurts.

[PO51]

Yeah and it only took 45 years looking on and off to find the parts to replace what he through away!

[Lycoming-8]

PO51,

As I looked at those pics last nite I was wondering about those large curved brackets as well. Just did not remember those being a part of our top hardware. Tonite when I saw the pics that had been posted by John Stone I thought "Well now, that is like ours!!"

New question for John, how early is your '28, do you know the month stamped on the firewall??

This is all very interesting, as there has not been such thorough discussion about the business coupes anywhere I have looked. I really appreciate all of the sharing of info and pics.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

That's what I'm talking about.... A real discussion about the difference between A model Sport Coupes and Business Coupes.

I knew my car was different than any I had seen. I also knew that the EXPERTS would be able to sort it out.

Keep it up.

[Ron in Quincy]

Like the others have said, I quite sure you have a Business Coupe; there does not appear to be any evidence of sockets for the lower landau studs and no metal bracket for mounting the upper landau stud. Also, Sport Coupes in 28-29 were equipped with a rumble seat and yours has the standard deck lid.

Ron

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by Lycoming-8

PO51,

As I looked at those pics last nite I was wondering about those large curved brackets as well. Just did not remember those being a part of our top hardware. Tonite when I saw the pics that had been posted by John Stone I thought "Well now, that is like ours!!"

New question for John, how early is your '28, do you know the month stamped on the firewall??

This is all very interesting, as there has not been such thorough discussion about the business coupes anywhere I have looked. I really appreciate all of the sharing of info and pics.

There is no date stamped on the firewall (there was a time when they didn't stamp numbers on firewalls). The number is 94,478 which the engine matches the frame. That makes it an April car. The Business coupe was not introduced until a little later so this is an extremely early one. Several years ago I corresponded with someone in CA that had and earlier one (#90,xxx). I have the original wood and even saw the original bill of sale and they indicate it is truly a BC. The original title says it was delivered in Carpio ND in July 28. Bought by Custom Cutters and brought back to Kinsley KS in the late 60's. It was unmolested and included the early Ames horn, belt rail, mushroom shift knob, early hood, scriipt shocks with numbered shock arms and Ford Script crank. Too bad they let it sit outside so the the top weathered and fell into the seat and started rusting things. My brother bought it in the 70's and stored it at our Dad's place until I got it in the early 80's and started the restoration. It orginally had blue check interior which I couldn't find so it was done in grey. Showed it at the first World Meet in 1986. Pretty well a hanger queen ever since. I think it has about 2500 miles.

A couple of things about the top, there were 4 cloth straps across the top rather than 3 and the metal staps at the back actually bent over the back of the main bow rather than in front of it. I used the originals as patterns.

That is about all I can think of right now. Really didn't think many people were interested in BC's.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

"Really didn't think many people were interested in BC's."

Well... looks like alot of people had the same questions. I'm glad we are getting all this info out.

Thanks to all that have replied. Keep the info coming.

[Marco Tahtaras]

I've been pondering this since it was first posted. First, the full bow and the curved support brackets were never intended to be used together. I've been going through records and cross referencing part introduction dates, etc.

What has made it difficult is that what we see in the pics is OLD so certain assumptions are normal. However I keep looking at the pics and the height and shape of that bow looks very odd to me. The bow appears taller than normal and the corners appear too square. Looking further, the bow does not appear as wide (thick) at the top or tapered as it should down the sides. Now, I finally spotted the clincher! The support braces on all Sport Coupes and Business Coupes were OUTSIDE the #2 bow putting them against the cardboard panels. I believe closeup pics of different areas of that bow would show clearly to those that have restored these models that the bow is not what it first appeared to be.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Ok Marco.... Now I'm REALLY confused.

[Marco Tahtaras]

In John's '28 Business Coupe above, note the bow is mounted INSIDE the lower corner bracket as well as the upper support brace. The inside of the top is right against the upper brace. The Business Coupes below show the special bow with the curved support brace. Once again the brace is against the inside of the top. In fact in all these cars the inner top panel (covered cardboard) correctly has a small rivet attaching the trim panel to the brace.

Now looking at your pics it appears the bow is mounted to the OUTSIDE of both the lower brackets as well as the curved braces which Ford never did. All this indicates to me that the bow is not original to the car. Whatever was done to the car could easily date back 50-60 years.

[Jerry Parr WI]

The car does not appear to have a rumble seat which would also indicate that it was not a Sport Coupe.

[PO51]

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Marco,
Thanks for posting the pictures and giving your input, I to was confused by the pictures of the curved brackets and full bow mounted on the outside of the corner brackets. Those pictures are going to be a great help to me in working on my 29 BC if you have any more pictures you could share that would be wonderful. my email is [email protected]
Steve

[peters180a/170b]

One way or another the tops are a bitch to do correctly.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

One way or another the tops are a bitch to do correctly.

My top really looked nice when I put it on in 1986 and still looks good from the outside but LB didn't supply water resistant cardboard and coming home from Lake Geneva it was on a trailer and we hit heavy rain. Top leaked enough that the cardboard got wet and warped. It is wavy on the inside. No way to fix it without starting over. I just have never had the motivation to do it. You are right, the tops are difficult to make look right.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Ok guys, the original pics were deceptive and had me really wondering what was going on. Here are pics I just took of the roof bow connection. As mentioned before, the bow is supposed to be on the inside of the triangle brackets. The bow is on the inside. That bow is metal on the inside of the bracket. What you can't see with the top material on the car is, there is a wooden slat fixed to it that overlaps the same triangle bracket to actually sandwich it. All this being inside of the actual body line, making the wooden bow line up perfectly. The wooden outside slat is what you guys were seeing in the original pictures. The inside bow is there, just like on John's car.

Clear as mud...? Here's the pictures.

As I said before, I doubt VERY seriously this stuff has been apart since '29.

Let me know what you see....

[Marco Tahtaras]

That is fascinating! I'd sure like to know the history but we never will. I can say with absolute certainty that is not original Ford USA production. I also looked up Canadian production info and they were exactly like the USA.

BTW, it appears there are staples in some of the pics. Is that just shadows?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

BTW, it appears there are staples in some of the pics. Is that just shadows?

I may be seeing hand stitching which was not uncommon in the 40's and 50's.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

That is fascinating! I'd sure like to know the history but we never will. I can say with absolute certainty that is not original Ford USA production. I also looked up Canadian production info and they were exactly like the USA.

BTW, it appears there are staples in some of the pics. Is that just shadows?

There are staples, but they are definitely an after thought. Maybe when the top material was coming apart? This car was bought new in Knoxville, Tn. in early '29.

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

I may be seeing hand stitching which was not uncommon in the 40's and 50's.

Not saying it has never been modified, just doesn't look like the top bows have ever been apart. Like you said earlier though, could have been done 60+ years ago...?

[Tinbasher]

I'm working on a 28 Canadian Sport Coupe and I notice that the these cars have slots in the "B" pillar and mine only has two countersunk screw holes. No slots and no drilled holes for the top????? any idea's guys.

Also a couple of pictures of the "Black" Canadian emblem and the VIN.

The Light blue on the Firewall is going to go. I think I'm going to paint the car the Dawn Greys. (Lt. & Dr.)

The Old Tinbasher

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Tinbasher

I'm working on a 28 Canadian Sport Coupe and I notice that the these cars have slots in the "B" pillar and mine only has two countersunk screw holes. No slots and no drilled holes for the top????? any idea's guys.

The Old Tinbasher

I'm guessing those countersunk holes have to do with the pillar wood. You are missing the outer skins which form the outline of the top side quarters.

[Tinbasher]

Thanks Marco: Now some more bits to find. The top Brkts took some time to find. If you have these panels let me know!! My cars production date is Oct. 28.

J.Poole The Old Tinbasher

[Tinbasher]

Or some good Pictures and I can make them. JP

[700rpm]

I have started a Social Group (found under "Community" above) for owners of the 54A Business Coupes. Join in and share information!

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

That is fascinating! I'd sure like to know the history but we never will. I can say with absolute certainty that is not original Ford USA production. I also looked up Canadian production info and they were exactly like the USA.

BTW, it appears there are staples in some of the pics. Is that just shadows?

Marco,
Is there a website where I can see the info about these cars? If not where?

Thanks,
Kevin

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by OoltewahSpeedShop

Marco,
Is there a website where I can see the info about these cars? If not where?

Thanks,
Kevin

Unfortunately I don't know of any single source with enough information on these to be real helpful. There may be an old Restorer magazine article with useful info but I haven't had time to dig and see.

[LukeDahlinger]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Unfortunately I don't know of any single source with enough information on these to be real helpful. There may be an old Restorer magazine article with useful info but I haven't had time to dig and see.

I think it's a Restorer issue from 1969 or 1970 by Mary Moline that has a nice multi-page article. I'm sure it was reprinted in one of the "How to Restore" volumes, but not positive as I don't have those.

[Richard Wilson]

You are right Luke. "How to Restore Your Model A Vol 5" from MAFCA. Two long articals about 1928-29 50-A Sport Coupe and another about 1930-31 50-B Sport Coupes. Both by Mary Moline. Very detailed with charts, diagrams, and photos. each artical is about 20 pages in length.

[rer_239]

sorry for bringing this up so late, but i'm new to the game. how does the flat bar that curves around the window, attach to the wood rail that runs from door to door? also if you'll indulge me another question, does the "package tray" go on top of or below that wood rail?
thanks,
dick

[glenn in camino]

I'm pretty sure that all sport coupes had rumble seats. Business coupes did not.

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Finally.... a little progress on the Business Coupe .

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Coming together, finally.... Still need a few parts but getting there.

[700rpm]

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Looks good. I like the gas cap!

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Drove the old Business Coupe for the first time today. I know, I know.... it's been months since the last update.

Been busy this week.

Later,
Kevin

[700rpm]

What happened to your wire wheels?

[OoltewahSpeedShop]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

What happened to your wire wheels?

I still have them, just wanted a little Hopped Up look. Something a kid would have built in Mom & Dad's back yard in the '40's.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Timothy Kelly

It is my understanding that Sport Coupes had rumble seats and Business Coupes had trunks.

This tidbit of info may or may not be helpful as (1) it may not be correct in every instance, others will be sure to share their thoughts, and (2) the car at issue may have had the trunk or rumble seat converted or otherwise molested during the past 80 years.

The sport coupe came STANDARD with the rumble seat is Correct, and the business coupe with a trunk, said by ford to be able to hold their sales samples and such...

[DKnapp]

Does anyone have photos of the original cowl kick panels with side pockets??
thanks, Dick Knapp email: [email protected]

[daren007]

I am under the belief that all Sport Coupes had rumble seats. Check to see if you have the rumble seat floor riser. I was sold a 28 as a sport coupe that came with enough pieces to make it into one. At first I questioned if it was truly a sport coupe. The more I looked into it the more I knew it was a business coupe.

[Tinbasher]

I would say you have a business coupe. The second thing I noticed is that the car has a trunk where the Sport Coupe had a rumble seat. JP

[WHN]

Death, taxes, and that is not a Sport Coupe. The only things I would say are for sure.

We have only owned Sport Coupes, replaced many tops, none with frames like this one.

Enjoy.

[Mike Peters]

Late to the party as usual. This is my Nov. 28 biz coupe. Trunk car. Someone started a restoration in the 60's and was tragically killed. Make of it what you will. Haven't restarted the restoration yet. And yes, the top brackets on Ooltewahs car are a mystery. Part oval window and part standard biz coupe.