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01-04-2023, 01:33 PM | #1 |
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running with no thermostats
Doing some work on my recently purchased 1947 Ford V8 and discovered that there are no thermostats installed in the engine. Other than effecting the temperature in the heater, is there a reason that the PO was running without thermostats?
Thank you, Phil |
01-04-2023, 01:42 PM | #2 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
If Henry Ford was here today, I bet he would say,
Don't you dare run your flathead without any thermostats .
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01-04-2023, 02:42 PM | #3 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
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01-04-2023, 03:09 PM | #4 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
The reason is that back in the day, a rumor got started that removing the thermostats from an engine that runs hot will solve the problem. A lot of people that should know better, don't. Old wives tales die hard.
This, and the fact that it is very easy to do contributed to the myth. In addition, the fact that it is more difficult to install the thermostats and keep them in place on pre-'49 flathead fords than most other cars doesn't help either. |
01-04-2023, 03:30 PM | #5 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
I had one car, a '34 coupe in which I'd rebuilt the engine, re-cored the radiator and rebuilt the pumps. Guys that know me, know I don't skimp / cut corners. That car would always push a little fluid out of the radiator after a decent drive. Removed the thermostats and no more issues. No, I can't explain the "why", but it worked. If I didn't know who built this car, I'd suspect underlying issues.
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01-04-2023, 04:07 PM | #6 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
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Didn't someone say that Henry never put more on a car than was needed? |
01-04-2023, 04:29 PM | #7 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
I tried the whole no thermostat thing when I was new to flatheads. The only thing I got was a car that wouldn't get over 120* when it was cold and ran 190* when it was hot out. I put 170*'s in it and it stays at 170* in all temperatures.
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01-04-2023, 04:32 PM | #8 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
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01-04-2023, 05:40 PM | #9 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Been a while since I had Skip rebuild a set of 8ba pumps but IIRC the paperwork he sent back with the pumps said to not run thermostats. But as i said its bee a while.
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01-04-2023, 06:00 PM | #10 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Bottom line? If your car runs better all around without thermostats, there's something else wrong (dirty block or radiator, eroded impellors, cracked head or block, etc.).
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01-04-2023, 06:21 PM | #11 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
When I built my '40 engine 25 years ago, I took extra time to make sure all the old core sand had been dug out from the water jackets, especially at the rear of the block. After that, I had the block baked at high temperature in a commercial oven at a machine shop that builds racing engines. The baking process turned all the scale and mineral deposits remaining in the water jackets into fine dust and was easily blown out with compressed air. After that, the machine shop then shot-blasted the block in a shot-blast cabinet and I can tell you that block was clean. I run Speedway water pumps and NO thermostats and have had no overheating problems - I live in Texas, so I know about hot! I check the temperature occasionally with a thermometer just for peace of mind, and have never seen it go over 180. I don't advocate running a flathead without thermostats, I just think it should be considered case-by-case based on the engines' condition. If your engine can handle them, by all means use them.
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01-04-2023, 06:46 PM | #12 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Ive run many cars wo thermostats.......
theyve always run cooler, so there you go..... |
01-04-2023, 06:48 PM | #13 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
I tried no stats in the first 59AB I had built/ The motor tended to run hot which I attributed to the water moving to fast thru the radiator. I installed stats and the motor ran cooler at a more manageable temp.
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01-04-2023, 07:02 PM | #14 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Millions of people drive billions of miles every year, and every one of those miles is done in a car with thermostats fitted. Every car that rolls off a production line has thermostats.
What is so special about a flathead Ford that would make it an exception to the norm? Run stats. It helps the motor in many ways. Mart. |
01-04-2023, 07:04 PM | #15 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
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01-04-2023, 07:08 PM | #16 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
This we’ll be another myth but I was told that the thermostats not only got the engine up to proper operating temperature quickly but even open they restricted the flow so that the coolant spent enough time in the radiator to transfer the heat it had absorbed. But we weren’t talking about flatheads.
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01-04-2023, 07:42 PM | #17 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
As far as what Henry would think, what about the millions of engines Ford produced before adding thermostats in 1934? He must have changed his mind.
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01-04-2023, 07:48 PM | #18 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
I believe this proves the point. If everything had been fine, he never would have added them. He did not waste money on frivolous things.
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01-04-2023, 08:01 PM | #19 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
That car is still going strong w/o stats.
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01-04-2023, 08:17 PM | #20 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
However, the O/P was asking about his '47 Ford (which did come from the factory with thermostats). Since the great majority of the members here have later model engines, I stand by my opinion. |
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01-04-2023, 10:05 PM | #21 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
The engine will last longer if it operates at a constant temperature, The parts are not expanding and contracting and changing their clearances. A fully opened thermostat will easily flow enough coolant for a good radiator to remove the heat and the flatheads have two of them, where all the other V8s only have one.
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01-05-2023, 12:21 AM | #22 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Perhaps I could provide more info on the discussion on thermostats; it seems that all stats perform well based on temperature alone, however has anyone considered the issue of flow or volume passing a wide open thermostat, My experience follows, new clean engine, new NAPA stats (160), the rad burped on a drive on a hot day. One stat had not opened, stuck I assume, I replaced with the original 170 stat that came with the truck. It was better, still ran to warm though. I had had overheating problems pulling a trailer so I decide to match up the stats and put all new stats in. I compared at wide open, the opening size of (for flow) the original Ford stats versus the new one I had installed (160) It looked like at wide open condition the opening of the original stat volume was about double that of the new replacement. I installed all new high flow stats and my temps did definitely drop, however this needs to be confirmed on a real hot day. This is just further info on the never ending flathead overheating discussion.
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01-05-2023, 01:55 AM | #23 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
I just knew we'd get here eventually.
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01-05-2023, 07:46 AM | #24 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
My 8BA had 160s in it when I got the car and ran hot. I replaced them with180s and it ran 180 to 190 in any weather. Tried it without stats and it ran hot on hot days & cold on cooler days. .02 cents or nonsense, you choose......
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01-05-2023, 08:13 AM | #25 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
this topic is akin to synthetic vs standard motor oil. we all have our own experiences and opinions.
not much diff then politics. we know what we know...... I had a buddy who had over 30 years of ASE experience. He sold me his taurus, which always ran hot. Told me I couldnt remove the thermo to cool it down, because the computer wouldnt let the engine run. I removed the thermo, it ran 10 degrees cooler and told him to hop in. Lets go for a ride. sometimes thats just how it works out. Yes, running cooler may not always be better- but many times it is. |
01-05-2023, 09:51 AM | #26 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
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01-05-2023, 10:21 AM | #27 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
My first car a 59 ford never ran hot but we were under the impression that cool was better and would remove the stat for the summer. I remember seeing the milky oil on the dipstick and wondered what caused it.
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01-05-2023, 11:14 AM | #28 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
I think that there may be a problem with currently available thermostats (probably made off-shore) similar to the problem with current condensers.
Poor design and quality. |
01-05-2023, 12:35 PM | #29 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
I've been running no thermostats in my '36 since last summer, but only because that was one of the things I tried to keep it cool before I had the radiator recored. New radiator + Thermocure in the water jackets for several days got it cooling much better, but still overheated on occasion. Now in the winter it easily stays at 160, but at some point I'll probably experiment with thermostats again.
Not sure whether the generic 160 degree thermostats I bought will work well. I will have to trim them down to fit the upper hoses. I'm sure the original Ford thermostats were designed in a particular way to have the correct flow. |
01-05-2023, 03:10 PM | #30 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
We had a fleet of 400 vehicles, some of them they kept for twenty-years. I saw a lot of heating problems over the 30-years. I found way more thermostats that failed for sticking open than closed. We had a steep hill by the shop we used for road tests. If a vehicle's temp was okay driving on the flat ground but would overheat climbing that hill, it was almost a plugged radiator. If we suspected a thermostat, we would heat up water in the boss's coffee cup to see if the thermostat would open. If we were replacing the radiator, we always replace all the hoses and the thermostat. Green 50/50 coolant needs to be changed every two-years and nobody does it. The two vehicles with cooling problems issues that kicked my butt. One was where the impeller on a new water pump was slipping. The other was an F-800 that I had diagnosed the radiator as being plugged and sent it out for a new core. They re-cored it and it still overheated. I replaced everything associated with the cooling system and it still overheated climbing the test hill. We used two different radiator venders. I was at the other shop run by an old-timer. I was dropping off another radiator and I asked him about the F-800 radiator. He said, did they use the small tube or big tube core? That was the problem. Never assume that a new part is okay. We had a lot of new thermostats that would fail to open. We always tested the new ones first in hot water with an infrared thermometer. You never know what has been done to these old cars. But you know they came from the factory "not" overheating. If you start changing the original design from the factory, you're not fixing not problem. My dad said every summer they would tow a trailer from North Dakota to CA, across the 100-degree desert with an almost new '53 Merc and it never overheated. |
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01-05-2023, 07:01 PM | #31 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
here we go again this has been around the track more times than pharlap; basically an engine is designed to operate in a specific temperature range and thats the thermostat job! Without going into a discussion that could be used as a thesis for a degree in HYDRO THERMO DYNAMICS . Henry didnt do anything that cost money he didnt need to and as a rule they all left the factory WITH thermostats . So if its overheating somethings wrong or your trying to operate the vehicle outside its design. Down here in Aus they run hot. Why we are to close to the equator and they dont have enough cooling capacity in reserve [in winter no problem in summer you have to watch that gauge and drive to suit ] So for what its woth my 2 cents worth is run thermostats onl trick is the temp range and how big the hole [Flow] is when they open.
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01-05-2023, 07:09 PM | #32 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
The original post simply asked why the PO of the car was running the engine without thermostats. The reasons for running with thermostats seem rather obvious.
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01-05-2023, 08:16 PM | #33 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
No stats on my ‘36; runs just right with Skip’s rebuilt pumps. Who knows. I live in Maine, but never drive after Halloween, by which time, traditionally, roads have salt / grit. YMMV.
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01-06-2023, 05:35 PM | #34 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
curiosity question? Does anyone know the dia of the valve [hole] in an early 24 stud [center outlet] butterfly style thermostats as factory fitted .
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01-07-2023, 12:24 PM | #35 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
My 47 Ford doesn't have thermostats and is running great and fortunately never had an overheating problem in the 35 years I've owned it. As i started to get more educated on the subject i was going to add them around 15 years ago but i said to myself why should I if my car has never had a problem.
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01-07-2023, 12:34 PM | #36 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
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01-07-2023, 01:09 PM | #37 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Not entirely. The problem with not running thermostats is not overheating; it is running too cold with the attendant sludge and premature wear problems. Admittedly, the great majority of us do not drive our vehicles enough miles for this to become a serious problem, but it's there.
Last edited by tubman; 01-08-2023 at 09:13 AM. |
01-07-2023, 02:40 PM | #38 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
In my case, I know that the engine runs fine without them, and that I will never know why the PO was running without, but, it seems like a good idea to go ahead and install a pair and see what happens. This was a good discussion. Thanks to all for your input. Phil |
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01-07-2023, 04:06 PM | #39 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
tubman is right. Thermostats stabilize the coolant to the desired operating temperature for the engine so as to help alleviate the formation of sludge, allow proper oil pressure and flow to vital areas of the engine, and to help atomize fuel for a more efficient burn and less carbon deposits. Quoting an old hot rodder..."heat is horsepower".
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01-07-2023, 09:42 PM | #40 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
I convinced myself long ago that my flathead ran cooler with high flow thermostats. Mr Gasket makes some that fit the 8BA. Thermostats are nice because your oil warms up quicker, burning off fuel contamination that gets past the rings into the oil (especially when cold).
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01-09-2023, 11:51 PM | #41 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
How long did that engine last before showing blow-by and using oil? Cold running engines don't fully vaporize the fuel so oil is washed off the cylinders by raw gasoline, which wears the rings and cylinder walls faster. |
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09-16-2023, 05:48 PM | #42 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Just to prove how ignorant I really am, I'll ask, how do you install thermostats in a 1941 Ford?
Pull off the upper radiator hoses, set the thermostats in the heads with the 'umbrella' right side up and reinstall the hoses? Are there any other parts involved? My car doesn't have them but I want see what happens if I install them like Henry did. |
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09-16-2023, 07:53 PM | #43 | |
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Re: running with no thermostats
Quote:
Have heard that some cheap hoses will allow the stat to be pushed up the hose. In that happens you could add another hose clamp just above the stat to squeeze the hose slightly. |
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09-16-2023, 08:40 PM | #44 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
In re-reading this old thread, the same old wives tales are here, so in an effort to clear up some alternative facts...
Water too fast: Simply stated, if X gallons per minute flow through the radiator, that same speed is how fast they flowed through the block. It's heat transfer will EQUAL that of water flowing XX gallons per minute. ½ the heat per gallon, but twice as many gallons = equal heat transfer, fast or slow. Will a thermostat maintain the temperature rating of the stat? Not gonna happen. A stat will simply open at it's temp rating, it has no control over temps beyond that rating. What it will do, is to close while coasting downhill on a cool day, in an effort to preserve engine operating temps. I can't picture a scenario where 160 stats would be better than 180 stats, except perhaps the parts department selling fake news.
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09-16-2023, 09:29 PM | #45 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
I had no end of problems getting the big inch flathead in my '41 coupe to run cool, both at idle in traffic and at 60+ on the highway. Tried everything, including removing thermostats, which as an engineer, I knew would be no help. Final solution was fixing the leaks, cleaning, and straightening the fins on the truck radiator that came with the car. Then I put the 170 thermostats back in to keep the engine running from running too cool, which is bad from both efficiency and longevity.
Took it out for a hard run two weeks ago when it was 95 degrees. Never got over 180 stuck in traffic or at 65 on the interstate. In summary, test your thermostats by putting them in a pan of warm water with a candy thermometer and heat the water up until you see them start to open at the rated temperature. If they check good, install them and forget about them, regardless of any overheat issues you are fighting. |
09-17-2023, 04:59 AM | #46 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
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09-17-2023, 07:37 AM | #47 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
The idea that water moving too fast through the radiator causes overheating is just plain wrong.
Heat transfer increases with mass flow rate. Said in plain English, the more coolant you can flow the more heat you can get out of the motor. The origin of water moving too fast is from 1950s racers who were using stock used radiators with no pressure caps. A good flathead water pump at high rpm can pump more water than a marginal radiator can gravity flow. The pumps will force water out the overflow. If you are driving your car at 4000+ rpm with a marginal radiator then you may have too much flow. Everyone else should maximize flow. |
09-17-2023, 09:09 AM | #48 |
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Re: running with no thermostats
If you want an opinion, this is the place to be.
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