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11-25-2012, 08:38 PM | #61 | ||||
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Re: What is this noise?
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What I am going to do is order a new lock washer that goes between the pinion nuts since they may well have been moved by the impact of the pin fragments, remove the outer nut, re-torque the inner nut to specs to take up any slack that there may be from bearing wear, re-install the lock washer, put on the outer nut and bend the tabs down to lock it, and, after I get it all put back on the car run the drive line in the air with mineral spirits or solvent in the differential a few times to rinse out the metal flicks, put in new oil with a little added ZDDP as always and drive the wheels off of it again. I'll also be replacing the brake line from the front T to the hose that goes to the rear axle brake line, the short hose that's in that line, gaskets between the torque tube and banjo, U-joint gaskets, speedo turtle gaskets, track bar and shackle bushings and studs. I'm still considering replacing the coupler and pins as well as the speedometer cable. Thanks again for all your help.
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Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome) "It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness Last edited by Old Henry; 11-25-2012 at 08:52 PM. |
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11-25-2012, 08:42 PM | #62 |
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Re: What is this noise?
I posted awhile back that I had once read of a fix to drill the torque tube, pull out the loose pin and put a pipe plug in the hole. Looks like that's what ya shoulda done. Now, the questions why did it only rattle in certain circumstances? Could it be that the pinion bearing loosened up? That might allow the pinion to move back and forth making the noise / no noise situation. I'd say you're in for a complete tear down.
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11-25-2012, 08:49 PM | #63 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Big difference here between "setting up" a banjo rear and just disassembling, cleaning and reassembling with the same gasket counts. I don't think it's too feasible to reassemble without getting the axles vertical as in that HAMB thread. I don't think it's wise to be leaving little bits of metal in there! IMHO!
PS: I don't think there's any "torque spec" for the pinion nuts. They should be torqued to a bearing preload which you should be able to do by feel. That would be a lot easier to do if the ring gear, carrier and axles were out of the way during that set up. Once again, IMHO!
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11-25-2012, 08:50 PM | #64 | |
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Re: What is this noise?
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11-25-2012, 09:00 PM | #65 | |
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Re: What is this noise?
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Granted 8-14 in/lbs is not much torque. I don't know what pre-load on bearings is so tell me some more why not try to adjust that nut to that spec for used bearings to try to take up some slack from wear. I'm here to learn.
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11-25-2012, 09:00 PM | #66 | |
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Re: What is this noise?
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11-25-2012, 09:03 PM | #67 | |
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Re: What is this noise?
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11-25-2012, 09:17 PM | #68 |
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Re: Pre-Load
Pre-load is neccessary on tapered roller bearings to ensure that line-contact is achieved along the length of the rollers.
Ball bearings make point contact and they come with different internal clearances depending on the application conditions, for example at higher temperatures more internal clearance in needed to compensate for expansion. Roller bearings make line-contact and tapered roller bearings need to be preloaded to ensure that the rollers make full contact with the cup and can thereby take the prescribed load. If too loose, the rollers may rattle, cause wear and not be ready to take a heavy load. If not in full line contact a heavy shock load could fracture things. |
11-25-2012, 09:45 PM | #69 | |
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Re: What is this noise?
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Pete, I disagree with the idea that the pinion bearing could be loose, thereby causing the secondary condition. If that were the case, there would be major problems within the banjo, with failure long before the coupling pins sheared.
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11-25-2012, 09:56 PM | #70 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Henry, to answer your question regarding the preload, the preload is set on the pinion while nothing else is impeding the movement of the pinion. That means having the pinion and its bearings insgtalled in the banjo which is otherwise empty, no ring gear, no axles, no axle housings. There is a KRW tool, which is a spring loaded wrench with a gage, doesn't work well at all. Best to do the job the way the old time mechanics did it: Clamp the pinion in a bench vise pointed down, the banjo free to turn above the vise. To test the preload, hold the banjo with both hands, spin it hard and fast, and the banjo will come to a stop before it continues beyond one full turn after release. That will show you that the bearing has its correct preload.
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11-25-2012, 10:13 PM | #71 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Back in post #42, Henry theorized that the pinion shaft might be moving up and down under or off load causing the condition that would kick up the fragments causing the noise. Whether the pinion shaft is moving up or down, or fore or aft, I feel that the pinion bearings should be set as you state. I wonder if there is any perceptible looseness in the pinion bearings, either sideways or axial? The fact that the noise occurs only under no load, to me, indicates that the pinion is loose. IMHO
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11-25-2012, 10:29 PM | #72 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Now you can see why I'm scared to death to do anything!!
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11-25-2012, 10:31 PM | #73 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Pete, I don't think so, because looseness would produce horrific results within the banjo. The cause of the noise, I believe, is the same cause that sheared the pins: Movement fore and aft. Correcting the cause of that movement should provide answers to all the questions of the universe for all time.
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11-25-2012, 10:35 PM | #74 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Once I realized that the lock washer could not turn I ruled out the thought I had that the nuts might have turned from the washer tabs being hit by the pin fragment. That just leaves play caused by wear.
I just went out and took the coupler off of the pinion spline and gave it a wiggle. It did have just barely perceptible play in it which I don't think it should have any. So, I'm probably going to tighten the inside nut to specs to take that out as I said before. Since I'm not going to have an empty banjo to spin I'll use an inch/pound torque wrench I'll borrow from Autozone to get it right. Oops. Just realized I have no socket big enough and deep enough to put on that nut to use the torque wrench so I guess I'll just tighten it finger tight to "load" the bearings and that will have to be better than it is now with perceptible play. (That's what old Chuck would do and I like his thinking - sometimes.)
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Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome) "It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness Last edited by Old Henry; 11-25-2012 at 11:10 PM. |
11-25-2012, 10:47 PM | #75 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Henry, don't be discouraged! This stuff is not rocket science. I can see where different opinions can be confusing, but get yourself a copy of an old MoToRs Manual and read up on your project before you start. Get one of no later than a 1951 vintage 14th edition, and you'll have the best book you can find for any old Ford repair you can imagine. These can be had for less than $25 if you don't mind a few dogeared pages and greasy fingerprints.
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11-25-2012, 10:54 PM | #76 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Henry, the play you feel, if it is rotational play, is the relationship of the pinion to the ring gear, which is addressable by the use of proper thickness axle housing gaskets. If the play is not rotational, but up/down/sideways, you may be in the market for new bearings, particularly as you found metal in the banjo oil.
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11-25-2012, 10:58 PM | #77 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Don't want no "project". Just want to fix what's broken and get back on the road. My hobby is more driving than tinkering.
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Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome) "It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness Last edited by Old Henry; 11-25-2012 at 11:08 PM. |
11-25-2012, 11:01 PM | #78 | |
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Re: What is this noise?
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Maybe someday when they actually break I'll fix 'em. Right now they're working fine so I'll just adjust 'em and run 'em. Thanks for your interest and your help. I really do appreciate it.
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Prof. Henry (The Roaming Gnome) "It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” *Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand of Darkness Last edited by Old Henry; 11-25-2012 at 11:12 PM. |
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11-25-2012, 11:10 PM | #79 |
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Re: What is this noise?
Ok, then, but be sure you understand that to get a preload, you must actually turn the pinion, feeling the bearings load as you turn. To simply tighten until you feel no slack would spell disaster.
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11-25-2012, 11:13 PM | #80 | |
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Re: What is this noise?
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Thanks again.
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