Brake adjustment issues

[foxfire42]

I was experiencing major brake fading on my front so am switching from the older style brake floaters to the latest style. It seems pretty straight forward but just in case I read Les Andrews chapter first. I used a guage and verified the actuating arm at 15 degrees. Now I have a problem with the brake rods. Now in order to get the holes lined up for the clevis pin there are not enough threads on the rod to get the length to line with the holes. I did buy new push rods that were the required 7 ¼” length. Should I opt to remove the one pill to lessen the degrees on the actuating arm and gain more threads or will that impact the braking ability to an ineffective level?

The other issue is the instructions for centering the shoes. Is it really appropriate to bend the roller track to set the gap? I don’t think I have the strength to bend them vertically and I don’t feel comfortable doing that. I was hoping just changing the floater style would not have an impact on the alignment. I’m using the same brake wedge.

[J Franklin]

Removing the pill might be a good solution. are you using steel drums or cast iron? Steel drums fade more than cast ones. You can usually change your driving technique to lessen the need for hard braking that causes fade. Are your brakes set up as Ford indicated with more force to the rear than the fronts?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree that the brake fade is all about using steel drums that have been cut, or are worn out. Cast iron drums should eliminate the brake fade.

[mshmodela]

So steel drums were standard equipment on Model A, 28-30:

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/1931rearbrakedrum.htm

I saw this very useful video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO9By03k4wo

and notices the front drums appears well light weight (guessing steel).

[J Franklin]

The Ford factory did not wast time centering the shoes. If your car has been brought back to specifications either with building up or replacing parts the brakes should work as well as when new.

[foxfire42]

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I watched the video and could swear it looked like the nut was screwed on the opposite of lefty loosie, righty tighty. He was tightening it by turning it left (counter clockwise). I know the 60's Dodges had the lug nuts on the rear backwards. Were my eyes playing a trick on me?

Bending the roller track is stated in Les Andrews book on installing brake floaters. It seems like if I'm installing floaters the shoes don't need centering. Isn't that the purpose of the floaters? Sounds like I need to get the drums marketed by the Mel Gross Company.

I've been driving A's for 33 years and this was my first experience with brake fade. I was going down a long hill but managed to get around a corner almost on 2 wheels and come to a stop. Very very scary.

[Gary WA]

Originally Posted by 1930 coupe

I do not know where the bend the tracks got started. I do not think they will bend without ruining them, even if you could bend them they would no longer be level and would not work. The only way that I have found to center shoes that works is to custom make the pins that slide on the tracks with larger or smaller heads out of drill rod then heat treat them.
If anyone has found other ways that work, please let us know.

also make sure your Service Brake Cross Shaft is straight up and down and not forward or back.?

[Brian T]

Hello Barbara,
I am sure you know Marco with the years you both have as restorers, reading his articles gave me much insight as to how these brake systems work, some searches will reveal the problem, bending brake tracks is not one of them and the correct setting for the cross shaft is also discussed.
Congratulations on your recent award, and I will ask again if Gypsy should be up for sale you must let me know.
Regards Brian.

[Purdy Swoft]

I have no problem with model A brakes. I'm the only person that works on mine and I have built all of mine. Bending the tracks was a fairly common practice with the old mechanics . The tracks can be heated if necessary and bent with pliers. The brake roller pins don't move the full length of the tracks .The roller pins only move a small amount as evidenced by the wear areas on worn tracks. I weld the tracks and grind as needed to center the shoes. If the shoes drop down too far the drums won't clear the shoes and it will be a different amount that may need to be built up or ground down with each application .There has been a published starting point but it is only a starting point. Installing a new set of roller tracks is no guarantee that the shoes will be centered , as anybody that tried it will know. To me, it is easier to just build up the original tracks with gas weld and grind and level as necessary to center, with the tracks still on the backing plate . Its really not rocket science. To me model A brakes are the simplest that brakes could possibly be. I've never heard of over size or under sized roller pins heads but that would serve the same purpose of raising or lowering the height of the brake tracks so that the drums could be installed without binding as in centering. Flat head Teds square off set centering pins would be another easy choice but sorta pricey . Teds square head centering pins would give four different height possibilities. Floaters, no matter what type will have no effect on brake fade. Worn brake drums or drums that has beed turned will be too thin and will expand with heat on long down hill application of the brakes . As has been said by others, cast iron brake drums would be the best choice. If the steel drums havent worn too badly, reinforcement bands will work about as well. Ford didn't recommend turning the steel drums . I won't go into the long explaination of setting up the service brake cross shaft.

[foxfire42]

In the next couple days I'll verify the Service Brake Cross shaft for vertical then go from there. This is the first A I've had any braking issues with. The floaters were to give the shoes an opportunity to put the most surface on the drums. I'm ordering the cast iron drums from Gross. Stopping is my highest priority. Getting her running was easy. I was trying to get some miles on her before I left for winter in AZ. I'M RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

If as Purdy says the A brakes are the simplest I should be OK. I may stumble through it but I don't give up easily.

[Rusty Homestead Fl]

Yep. I noticed that too. Reversed threads.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I REALLY lucked out, Vermin came with .010" oversize STEEL drums & PERFECT contacting woven lining, that looks like the brakes were only applied 20 or 30 times. Vermin came with NO HISTORY, but a LOTS of OLD pics.
Bill W.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

the only things I have found when the clevis pin holes will not line up without the rod threads being right at the end of the threaded bore are: brake cross shaft not verticle; too much pill shim; rod cut short by someone to get the clevis further on the rod when the shoes are worn too far.

brake fade, as others have said, is common on steel drums. It can seem like brake fade when there is too little shoe contact to the drum, i.e. shoes not centered and arced.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

In the next couple days I'll verify the Service Brake Cross shaft for vertical then go from there. This is the first A I've had any braking issues with. The floaters were to give the shoes an opportunity to put the most surface on the drums. I'm ordering the cast iron drums from Gross. Stopping is my highest priority. Getting her running was easy. I was trying to get some miles on her before I left for winter in AZ. I'M RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

If as Purdy says the A brakes are the simplest I should be OK. I may stumble through it but I don't give up easily.

The best way to set up the cross shaft is to allow 1/16 inch clearance between the plunger on the pedal rod and the inside backside of the center crossmember, where the plunger meets the brake light switch. At the same time, I adjust the brake pedal at the top of its travel. I make these adjustments with all of the brake rods disconnected. After the brakes are adjusted at the wheels, I adjust the clevis ends on the brake rods so that the clevis pins will just enter the brake levers. If you try setting the brake rods at the length recommended in the mechanics hand book, you will end up with very poor brakes. There should be no free play in the brake rods when the clevis pins are installed. I would have mentioned this in my first post If I had thought it was needed. This works for me and my brakes are just as good as modern car brakes.

[tbirdtbird]

I guess I have no idea what the mechanics handbook says. But I cannot imagine anyone setting up brakes other than what you just described

[RonC]

You should get a copy of the Ford Service Bulletins for setting up and adjusting your brakes.

From the service bulletins:

"......pull the brake pedal all the way back until it is against its stop - then adjust the rod until there is about 1/16” clearance between end of rod and rear flange of center cross member (leaving a little clearance between end of rod and cross member prevents any possibility of the end of the rod rubbing against the cross member and causing a squeak).

"After adjusting the brake pedal to cross rod, assemble side pull rods to brake operating and cross shaft end levers. When assembling the side pull rods, pull the brake operating levers on the front axle back and the brake operating levers on the rear axle forward (taking up all idle movement). Then with the levers in this position adjust the side pull rods so they can be assembled to brake operating and cross shaft end levers.

Next adjust brakes by turning up the adjusting wedges as described on page 202 of the January, 1928, Bulletin. After the brake rods have been correctly adjusted car owners should be notified that this adjustment must not be altered. Service brake adjustments must be made only by means of the adjusting wedge at each brake."

From page 202:

"Make all adjustments with brakes cold. Jack up all four wheels. Release hand brake lever. See that wheels revolve freely. Turn the adjusting wedge at each brake (not the pull rod) until the brake drags, then back off the wedge 2 or 3 notches or just enough to allow the wheels to revolve without drag. On new cars brakes will sometimes drag slightly for ¼ or ½ revolution, due to slight high spots. Some judgment must be used in setting such brakes, for if the adjusting wedge is backed off sufficiently to allow the wheel to revolve freely, the brake pedal will go all the way to the floor board when the brakes are hot. A slight drag in one or two spots will do no harm, as the brake will soon free up when the car is driven a short distance and the brake drum slightly expands due to the heat generated. For this reason, brakes should not be adjusted with the drums hot, as when the drum contracts upon cooling it would cause the brakes to drag. To insure correct equalization have one man only check the brake pressure by rotating the wheel. If the above adjustments are correctly made the brakes should operate as follows:

1. Rear brakes should just start to hold when brake pedal is depressed approximately 1 inch.
2. Depressing pedal about 1/2 inch farther should tighten but not lock rear brakes and cause front brakes to just start to hold.
3. Depressing pedal approximately another l/2 inch should lock rear wheels and hold the fronts very tightly. With properly adjusted brakes this should not exceed one-half of the total possible pedal movement.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

I guess I have no idea what the mechanics handbook says. But I cannot imagine anyone setting up brakes other than what you just described

Thanks Dave, The mechanics handbook gives a certain length that the brake rods should be adjusted to that probably pertains to the early brake setup. If the later brake rod setup is adjusted in that manner it leaves free play in the rods. There is a couple of variations that I didn't mention in the way that I do mine in the previous post. Sometimes for one reason or another it may be necessary to adjust the pedal rod until the rear plunger is touching the center crossmember to avoid running out of threads at the clevis end of the service brake rods. In such cases I've never noticed a squeak. I first adjust the rear brakes while the rods are disconnected with the wheels on the ground or shop floor. With the tires properly inflated (35 psi) and no other drag, the car is easily pushed by hand on the bumper to determine drag while adjusting the adjusting wedges. Because of the rear hub bearing design and possible wear, if the rear brakes are adjusted with the wheels in the air like the front brakes are adjusted, when the rear wheels meet the ground the drag will increase untill the rear wedges will have to be backed off or the drag will be severe .

[larrys40]

I've done many brake jobs as they are one of my specialties.... I totally agree with Purdy and his posts about the roller tracks. Replacing them is no guarantee that they will be centered. I too prefer to weld up the original tracks and surface to spec. I use KRW centering gauges along with a feeler gauge to ensure that they are centered. There are times when a little tweak of the roller track up or down is necessary. We're talking very slight,
Correct shoe/drum alignment, good drums, and proper adjustment after all rebuilding will give you brakes that will stop on a dime as Lloyd Kerr inferred with his instructional movie. If you guys who want to do a brake job right haven't seen it, it is worth obtaining a copy. Properly rebuild, adjusted, broke in/dialed in brakes on an "A" great. I'll put them up to the hydraulics any day on my '40.

Larry Shepard

[Purdy Swoft]

Thanks Larry, I agree completely about the how to stop on a dime video with LLoyd Kerr. Every model A owner needs this video to help them really understand model A brakes. It is a simple down to earth how to video that is worth every penny and more. Model A brakes often get a bad rapp thiat just ain't so !!!

All of the Victor Duncan model A videos are good, especially carburetors and carbohydrates with LLoyd Kerr showing the different carbs and Fred Carelton actually dissassembling and rebuilding a rusty Zenith carb.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I've known of hydraulics, both early & later types, with all matching cylinder size cylinders, arced properly, great HIGH pedal & still don't stop better than stock. Adding a small Bendix Hydro-Vac booster helps, as the main problem is NOT enough pressure to create HEAT, which is what creates FRICTION, which is what makes the danged thing STOP!
One guy used a booster from an old AMC Pacer.
They're easy to hide under the car & only require a vacuum hose to the manifold & tee into the hydraulic line, just past the master cylinder outlet.
I've used Bendix Hydro Vacs on many old Jaguars, to replace the funky old Girling boosters. I once rigged a small one on a Jaguar XKE hydraulic clutch system for a man that had a weak left leg from Polio. I had Polio in 1937, & wear braces, that's why I have to move my seats back & have to have top knotch mechanical brakes, to be SAFE! Lubing EVERY metal to metal moving brake part with Lubriplate or such & oiling EVERY clevis pin & ANY crossbar parts with a "squirt" can, also helps.
Bill W.