Sears Marvel 2405

[legacy]

I have a 1928 Ford Model A Tudor with a Tillotson carburetor.
The car stalls when I come to a stop, causing some very stressful situations, like blocking a lane of traffic while I try to get the car started.
I have spent a lot of time and money trying to fix this problem. I tried all the suggestions on this forum and even got an exchange rebuild carburetor from a reliable source. The problem continues and I stopped using the car.
I understand that Sears sold a carburetor, called the Sears Marvel 2405. It’s also called Allstate 2405.
Does anyone have any experience with these carburetors.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by legacy

I have a 1928 Ford Model A Tudor with a Tillotson carburetor.
The car stalls when I come to a stop, causing some very stressful situations, like blocking a lane of traffic while I try to get the car started.
I have spent a lot of time and money trying to fix this problem. I tried all the suggestions on this forum and even got an exchange rebuild carburetor from a reliable source. The problem continues and I stopped using the car.
I understand that Sears sold a carburetor, called the Sears Marvel 2405. It’s also called Allstate 2405.
Does anyone have any experience with these carburetors.

There are many threads on the Ford Barn about the Marvel Schebler/Allstate 2405/Johnson JFA carburetors, both pro and con.

[old ugly]

i know nothing of the sears carb. sorry

that problem happens on the zenith as well. Tom endy has an article on it for the zenith re this issue but i don't know about the tillotson. maybe check his site it may be a similar fix.

i have a car with a zenith with that same problem. i have and still am fighting it. on mine it may be a throttle plate issue but am unsure as of this moment.
to compensate for that i adjust the gav open a little extra when driving in a stop and go situation.

[burner31]

Check your float level

[Aretino]

The Marvel is a Marvel. My 31 coupe runs great with it.

[VT Cruzan]

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My '31 Coupe has a Marvel as well. I know it has been on the car since at least 1954. There has never been a problem with it.

[J Franklin]

I doubt yoiur trouble is carb maker specific. any carb if set-up poorly can cause stalls. stalls on stopping could also be (Loose/worn) electrical in cause.

[gdmn852]

Does sound strange that the problem continues even after changing carburetor. I seen problems like this in the ignition lock if the wire shorts out inside the armor cable or loose contacts . Maybe run a continuity check on electrical.

[abachman3]

I have run thousands of miles using a Marvel. I prefer it to a Zenith. have in the way back past switched to a B carb to eliminate the stalling issue, as the float is oriented differently and does not have the same issues.

[ndnchf]

The Marvel is great - There is one on my 31 CCPU. In my humble opinion, it is the best carb out there. Mine runs beautifully, more pep, idles fine and never stalls at a stop. I like it so much I got another one as a spare, and sent it to Gary Johnston for rebuild. I got it back a few weeks ago. It looks great.

[JKY]

I have one on my B engined 29 Fordor. It keeps up with the B engine without a problem. It's been a great carburetor. It came from Gary Johnston also, he's Jim Bullock's son in law.

[Y-Blockhead]

I have friends that run Marvels from Jim Bullock/Gary Johnson and they run great. The problem I have with Marvels from Jim/Gary is they bead blast them and IMO ruin the finish. And why the allen screws?

[jack backer]

The Marvel is a later design than Zenith. It uses an emulsion tube istead of multiple jets. The emulsion tube design was used on Stromberg 97’s as well, a much simpler design than the Zenith.

All three carburetors mention flow about half of the CFM of the A engine. Matching carb air flow to engine air flow yields peak performance.

[eagle]

If the float level is adjusted properly, none of the carbs should die after hard braking. As others have said, if it has this tendency you can open the GAV a bit to help, but I would pull the carb off and adjust it properly. Another thing that people do to compensate for this is increase the idle speed with the hand throttle. This also has adverse affects on the shifting ease. Low idle speeds makes a much smoother shift.

[Marshall V. Daut]

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[Marshall V. Daut]

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[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by legacy

I have a 1928 Ford Model A Tudor with a Tillotson carburetor.
The car stalls when I come to a stop, causing some very stressful situations, like blocking a lane of traffic while I try to get the car started.
I have spent a lot of time and money trying to fix this problem. I tried all the suggestions on this forum and even got an exchange rebuild carburetor from a reliable source. The problem continues and I stopped using the car.
I understand that Sears sold a carburetor, called the Sears Marvel 2405. It’s also called Allstate 2405.
Does anyone have any experience with these carburetors.

Only a suggestion..... it is important to determine if the car has a intermittent electrical issue or a fuel issue. If a reliable source carb has been installed and the problem remains the same, I would start looking elsewhere. A simple check would be to squirt starting fluid in the intake and then try and start, if it starts right away and then stops, that moves the problem possibly back to the fuel tank and a possible gas flow issue out of the fuel tank. A good way to see if there is a fuel blockage is remove the gas line to the carb and blow air back into the gas tank, reconnect and if the car starts and runs fine for a while again, there may be rust or sediment in the tank blocking gas flow. If the engine does not start, I would suggest moving on to electrical issues. ignition coils can fail once they get warmed up, by the way! Please let us know what you find out.

[Dick M]

I run a Marvel and prefer it to the Zenith. I carry my Zenith under the seat for a spare. The folks below are excellent rebuilders of Model A Carbs. I bought my Marvel from them.

Contact the folks below to purchase a perfectly rebuilt Marvel:

MARVEL SHEMBLER CARBERATOR 903-490-3725
976 COUNTRY ROAD 2310 —[email protected]
Gary Johnspon
TEXARKANA, TX 75503 CARBS/EXCELLENT WORK

[fried okra]

Has anyone compared how an "A" with a Marvel carb runs compared to the Weber downdraft kits?

I know they are totally dissimilar, and the Marvel looks more appropriate.

Does the Marvel offer any improvements in running though over a Weber?

[JBill]

I have run a Marvel in the past and probably would again if I could find the fitting mine required at the carb inlet in order to adapt it to a standard Model A fuel line. I haven't seen this mentioned. Was (is) mine just weird? The inlet on my Marvel is not the same size as on any of the half dozen Tillotsons or Zeniths that I have.

[Ruth]

JBill, have you tried Dave Renner?

[Ruth]

JBill, have you tried Dave Renner? www.rennerscorner.com If he doesn't have what you need new he sells used parts. I have gotten a couple of good throttle shafts from him.

[ndnchf]

Originally Posted by JBill

I have run a Marvel in the past and probably would again if I could find the fitting mine required at the carb inlet in order to adapt it to a standard Model A fuel line. I haven't seen this mentioned. Was (is) mine just weird? The inlet on my Marvel is not the same size as on any of the half dozen Tillotsons or Zeniths that I have.

Renners Corner sells the fitting. Part number
9288-FLA. I just got one.

[ndnchf]

One thing to note. The original Marvel fuel line adapter came with a strainer. The adapter from Renners does not. So you'll want to incorporate a sediment bowl or something similar.

I have a Marvel on my A now and love it. But I also have another, freshly rebuilt Marvel ready to install. I was going to put a glass bowl under the '31 style fuel shut off. But instead, I'm now adapting a '31 Zenith side sediment bowl to the Marvel. It is smaller and makes for a cleaner looking set up.

[Dick M]

You can call the folks in post #18. They have the fitting...

[The Master Cylinder]

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Originally Posted by Ruth

JBill, have you tried Dave Renner?

Originally Posted by Ruth

JBill, have you tried Dave Renner? www.rennerscorner.com If he doesn't have what you need new he sells used parts. I have gotten a couple of good throttle shafts from him.

Originally Posted by ndnchf

Renners Corner sells the fitting. Part number
9288-FLA. I just got one.

Originally Posted by Dick M

You can call the folks in post #18. They have the fitting...

I'l bet Dave Renner at Renner's Corner has what you need??

[Rob Doe]

Originally Posted by legacy

I have a 1928 Ford Model A Tudor with a Tillotson carburetor.
The car stalls when I come to a stop, causing some very stressful situations, like blocking a lane of traffic while I try to get the car started.

Legacy, I've attached a write up that I've been adding to for some time regarding your problem. While it is Zenith oriented, much of the info still applies. Near the end, there is a tip regarding how to determine if the problem is in the carb. I sure hope it helps you. Rob

Model A Stalls At A Stop But Restarts Easily

Our ’31 coupe has a Bert's rebuilt Zenith carb on her. Her short driving history is clouded by a fresh motor that was breaking in and a new Model A owner. After 6700 miles Little Bug Eye idles nicely after a warm up and does not normally die at stop signs. I glance at the ammeter as we come to a stop, especially at specific corners where during break in, she did die. Her ammeter flickers widely, warning of an imminent stall. A quick adjustment of the hand throttle preempts this. My feet are occupied with the clutch and brake pedals.

The jury is out on what causes this rarity. Sometimes I lean under 1/4 turn GAV setting when in open country and forget to reset to 1/4. I believe a setting at 3/8 might stop this, but when checked, my plugs are a dry gray rather than tan; so, I don't like 3/8. One stop where Little Bug has struggled is a down hill grade from higher speeds. Hard braking warrants an eye on the ammeter.

Edit: I had opened my Idle Air Adjustment screw an extra turn to see if my plugs would change to dry tan. And promptly forgot about doing this. I have reset the base idle to 1 1/4 turns open and cannot force the car to die at a stop.

Below is a list of tips collected from knowledgeable sources. I’ve tried to sequence them logically. For purposes of this writing, the car is assumed to be at home, in the garage or out on the driveway. For sake of brevity, it is assumed that the engine’s cylinder compressions, valve train, cooling system etc. are performing satisfactorily.

Preliminary Electrical and Ignition Specific Checks:

A high percentage of Model A drivability problems are found to be electrical. Some say as high as 90%. Your car’s electrical system must be functioning properly.

Before declaring that your stalling issue is carb related, check the basic electrical circuits / components first, using proper voltage testing procedures. The Les Andrews (blue) book, “Trouble Shooting and Diagnostics,” has instructions with ‘how to’ sketches for the important voltage tests. These tests take only a few minutes to accomplish, and they will identify loose or corroded connections and failing components.

A failing battery can wreak havoc on the charge system. Low battery voltage causes weak ignition spark, so can a failing coil, dirty plugs, a loose or damaged high tension coil wire, reverse coil polarity, dirty points, incorrect point or plug gaps, incorrect timing, faulty distributor component grounds. A dirty, too loose or too tight ignition cable ferrule where it is screwed into the side of the distributor can also cause issues. Weak or intermittent ignition function will exacerbate ‘stalling on stop’ issues.

Remove the safety fuse or unhook the battery ground cable. Verify all electrical connections are clean and tight, from the battery ground connection at the frame cross member, to the starter switch, to the junction box, up to the ammeter and all the way to the generator cutout and its input side where it connects to the generator internals. Consider using Kopr Shield to coat clean, bright metal, contact surfaces to limit corrosion issues for long periods of time.

Carburetor Specific Checks From Many Different Sources

Check for air leaks at the throttle plate shaft, the carb to intake manifold connection, the intake manifold to block connection and the vacuum wiper connection, check for pinholes in hoses or lines etc.

Base Idle Air Mixture screw needs adjustment. (This worked for me.)

Base idle speed is too high, allowing GAV to have too much effect. The Berts rebuilt carb on our coupe was set at 470 rpm with spark advance at 25%, GAV 1/4 turn open. I’ve also seen 1/8 turn open suggested.

Float is free, level on three sides and moves straight up and down. It must not rub against the bowl. Some bowls have bumps or seams that protrude.

Carburetor is dirty. Stalling on stop is likely the idle circuit or the compensating circuit components. (compensator jet, idle jet, secondary well, cap jet, GAV are dirty, jets can be loose and leak at their base too.)

Throttle plate not closing off entire throat when idle screw is backed off the stop. Use a penlight to diagnose looking for gaps. Loosen screws and adjust by closing plate firmly a few times, then tighten the two hold down screws.

Throttle plate has incorrect angles at the leading and trailing edge. 18.5 deg. or it may be installed incorrectly. Check angles.

Secondary well (brass insert) does not have a machined relief aligned with the compensator jet.

Compensator jet extends too far into the compensating well.

Float setting is incorrect, hanging up intermittently or is sticking open or shut.

Flow rates on one or more jets are outside established guidelines.

A Tip to Help Diagnose If Stalling is Fuel or Ignition Related

I watch the ammeter as my toe pushes the starter button. If I don’t see the ammeter twitch with each cylinder compression, I stop and install the safety fuse, open the fuel valve or turn the key on! This twitch is referred to as the “Henry Jiggle”. IMHO, ‘driver’ Model A’s should have the November 1929 Service Bulletin wiring change applied, so the primary ignition circuit function is reflected on the ammeter as a negative twitch at low rpms. If your car stalls on the road, or when approaching a stop, before pushing in the clutch, check for Henry’s Jiggle.

If the jiggle is there, the primary ignition circuit is very likely working as it should. Check the secondary circuit spark quality at the coil wire. If Henry’s Jiggle isn’t there, perform primary ignition circuit test procedures as covered in the Les Andrews blue book mentioned above. Your ammeter is your friend. Check it before exiting your A. It should not show a discharge.

[daren007]

I have been rubbing a Tillotson for years without problems.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by daren007

I have been rubbing a Tillotson for years without problems.

I hope you don't rub it in public!!

[ModelABum]

This is an old post, but in case any one else is looking, I just bought an adapter at Ace Hardware. You need to take the carb and a Zenth/Tillotson connector and they can match them up.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by JBill

I have run a Marvel in the past and probably would again if I could find the fitting mine required at the carb inlet in order to adapt it to a standard Model A fuel line. I haven't seen this mentioned. Was (is) mine just weird? The inlet on my Marvel is not the same size as on any of the half dozen Tillotsons or Zeniths that I have.

Marvel variants, most of them anyway, are made with a "plug" which allows one to align to the Model A fuel line (side) or the Model B fuel line (front)

That said, a small number of Marvels have only the Model A side plug - and the front position is "blank" - but could be drilled/tapped for the Model B.

I believe this side plug is 1/8" pipe thread - which indeed does require a brass compression fitting to bridge the gap.

This "single connection" Marvel has been said on this board to be superior to the double connection in having a "power tube" akin to the Tillotson F1A/B.

I own both Marvel types and see little difference. And little resemblance to the F1A/B.

Joe K