Rings have a lot of drag, seems too much

[Tom Elliott]

A friend and I are putting together two model A motors. Both of us using Hasting rings. Both motors seem to have a lot of ring drag. We checked ring gap in cylinders before installing, rod bearing and main bearing clearances are fine. But they both turn over really hard. Haven't yet checked how much torque lbs. it takes to turn over yet but will tomorrow.
What issues might I be having? Thanks, Tom

[jetmek]

did you check rod alignment? what about big end side clearance? Does the crank turn freely with rods off? Lotsa things could be wrong . Had one once that had oilring rail that was too long and overlapped when compressed .you gotta check all those not just top 2 rings

[700rpm]

Tom, I just went through this same issue. Check your piston clearance and make sure you're good there. I found I need about .005. I set my ring gaps to .020, but some recommended .022. Make sure your oil rings are not overlapping. I think Hastings are engineered so that can't happen, but I double checked mine anyway. After a couple disassemblies I determined that I had torqued my rods too much, otherwise I was good, and after reassembly now my engine is just about where I would expect a rebuild would be. New engines are tight, but you should be able to turn them over with the crank, with some resistance and without the plugs in. I don't know what the torque reading might be.

[colin1928]

Tom 1 of the things along with many others that will effect new ring drag is the cylinder wall finish
different grit honing stones will give very different drag or friction readings
ring manufacturers normal recommend a hone stone grit number

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Even though I had 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 thousands clearance on my cylinders, the oil rings were just a touch too big. I called Hastings and talk to dawn, and after verifying everything she sent me another set of oil rings that were just slightly smaller that worked perfect.
To proof the oil rings are your problem put the piston in without him and see if then it slides like it should.

[Tom Endy]

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It may not be the rings.

Several of the better known suppliers have begun offering pistons made in Taiwan in place of the previously sold Silv-O-Lite pistons made in the USA. Three of us have had severe engine failure using these pistons. I spoke with one of the suppliers and he tells me he has not had complaints on the subject.

Those of us that had the failures had to have the engines bored to the next size. We then bought pistons direct from Silv-O-Lite. One of the engine builders described the Taiwan pistons as the worst he has seen. He demonstrated by holding one under the hot water tap a few minutes and showed how they expanded .003. They are very thin on the side and have a deep chamfer around the top edge. The photos show my engine failure after a rebuild using the Taiwan pistons. You can see the chamfer around the top.

The engine failed in November of 2013 with about 1,000 miles on it after a rebuild. The #4 is severely melted, the rest were going down the same road. This occurred on a tour where we had been rolling along at about 55-60 (in overdrive) for about an hour. The other engines failed in the same manner. All three cars have temp gages installed and the water temp was a nominal 160 degrees when the failures occurred.

My engine has been since repaired. It was bored to the next size, and Silv-O-Lite pistons installed. We ran the engine on a test stand over a period of time for a total of five hours. The engine is now back in the car and is performing well with a little more than 1,000 miles on it.

Tom Endy

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

It may not be the rings.

Several of the better known suppliers have begun offering pistons made in Taiwan in place of the previously sold Silv-O-Lite pistons made in the USA. Three of us have had severe engine failure using these pistons. I spoke with one of the suppliers and he tells me he has not had complaints on the subject.

Those of us that had the failures had to have the engines bored to the next size. We then bought pistons direct from Silv-O-Lite. One of the engine builders described the Taiwan pistons as the worst he has seen. He demonstrated by holding one under the hot water tap a few minutes and showed how they expanded .003. They are very thin on the side and have a deep chamfer around the top edge. The photos show my engine failure after a rebuild using the Taiwan pistons. You can see the chamfer around the top.

The engine failed in November of 2013 with about 1,000 miles on it after a rebuild. The #4 is severely melted, the rest were going down the same road. This occurred on a tour where we had been rolling along at about 55-60 (in overdrive) for about an hour. The other engines failed in the same manner. All three cars have temp gages installed and the water temp was a nominal 160 degrees when the failures occurred.

My engine has been since repaired. It was bored to the next size, and Silv-O-Lite pistons installed. We ran the engine on a test stand over a period of time for a total of five hours. The engine is now back in the car and is performing well with a little more than 1,000 miles on it.

Tom Endy

Tom,

Are you aware of these junk piston still being sold?

[40 Deluxe]

Can anyone explain WHY suppliers switched to selling junk??

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Can anyone explain WHY suppliers switched to selling junk??

Sure MONEY! It's cheaper. And it's not just greedy suppliers, it's cheap ass purchasers who want the cheapest, not the best. So in order to compete, the suppliers/manufacturers look for ways to cut costs.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Our present Model A parts suppliers will always continue to "try" to offer quality U. S. made parts because some of us will always continue to seek quality and will not mind paying for said U. S. quality if parts are "available" to suppliers.

Today we witness so many U.S. manufacturing companies shutting down and moving overseas ...... and when we ask ourselves "why" ..... it is so very simple and not at all complicated ....... just takes one free phone call to ask the CEO and/or stockholders of said manufacturing companies ..... "Why?".

Have a friend who is assisting McDonald's to where they will soon have several monitors on front counters so customers can push buttons to order hamburgers with or without mayo on a monitor, pay for meals with either Credit, Debit, or EBT cards, and have multiple robots assemble hamburgers like automobiles to avoid losing money with forever increasing minimum wages .... will it work? ..... have no idea.

Appears we Model A minded people strive to make our Model A's run to "mechanical" perfection ...... and appears not much different business minded people strive to make their businesses run to "profitable" perfection.

Looks like we "seniors" always share at least (3) concerns:

1. Are we moving forward ...... or in reverse?
2. Is our Government looking out for "our" best interest?
3. Is there "anything" we "seniors" can do about it?

We do have reputable Model A Parts Suppliers & reputable different Model A Shops rendering Model A mechanical services ...... let us thank all of them for all that they do for us.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Our present Model A parts suppliers will always continue to "try" to offer quality U. S. made parts because some of us will always continue to seek quality and will not mind paying for said U. S. quality if parts are "available" to suppliers.

Today we witness so many U.S. manufacturing companies shutting down and moving overseas ...... and when we ask ourselves "why" ..... it is so very simple and not at all complicated ....... just takes one free phone call to ask the CEO and/or stockholders of said manufacturing companies ..... "Why?".

Have a friend who is assisting McDonald's to where they will soon have several monitors on front counters so customers can push buttons to order hamburgers with or without mayo on a monitor, pay for meals with either Credit, Debit, or EBT cards, and have multiple robots assemble hamburgers like automobiles to avoid losing money with forever increasing minimum wages .... will it work? ..... have no idea.

Appears we Model A minded people strive to make our Model A's run to "mechanical" perfection ...... and appears not much different business minded people strive to make their businesses run to "profitable" perfection.

Looks like we "seniors" always share at least (3) concerns:

1. Are we moving forward ...... or in reverse?
2. Is our Government looking out for "our" best interest?
3. Is there "anything" we "seniors" can do about it?

We do have reputable Model A Parts Suppliers & reputable different Model A Shops rendering Model A mechanical services ...... let us thank all of them for all that they do for us.

Switch to Wendy's..........They have the best burgers anyway.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Tom,

"All" of our local fast food chains have the same problems and have been hanging the same signs out for quite some time:

"NOW HIRING"

All are very short on employees and all change managers and employees a minimum of once a week ..... my wife and I play a Fast Food Game ..... we each order a hamburger with a Sprite and then "GUESS" what we will be offered at the drive up window ........ usually a Chicken Wrap and a Root Beer or something more ridiculous .... it happens so often it is more fun than playing the Lottery ..... at least we always win something.

Similar to a reverse mortgage hamburger. LOL

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Tom,

"All" of our local fast food chains have the same problems and have been hanging the same signs out for quite some time:

"NOW HIRING"

All are very short on employees and all change managers and employees a minimum of once a week ..... my wife and I play a Fast Food Game ..... we each order a hamburger with a Sprite and then "GUESS" what we will be offered at the drive up window ........ usually a Chicken Wrap and a Root Beer or something more ridiculous .... it happens so often it is more fun than playing the Lottery ..... at least we always win something.

Similar to a reverse mortgage hamburger. LOL

The new robot system should solve those issues

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Back to rings, if these are the regular old Hastings scritchy, scrapey rings, they'll have a lot of drag, until they polish over during break in. "MAYBE" just un-necessary worrying?? As long as the ring end gaps & piston clearance is OK & you've assembled the rest of the crap, properly, just go PEE & fire it up. This is called, "THE MOMENT OF TRUTH"---Think POSITIVE!!!!
Bill W.

[Tom Wesenberg]

That reminds me of a joke:
Stan asks Frank if he can name 3 cars that start with "P"?
Frank replies, "sure.....Pontiac, Plymouth, and Packard".
Stan: "wrong, those cars all start with gasoline".

Back to the original question, are you comparing these 2 engines to other engines, or to other Model A engines?
The front rope seal, new rings, and long stroke all make the Model A engine hard to crank over until it gets some run time on it.