The Ford Barn

36tudordeluxe · 01-23-2018, 12:45 AM

Just went to a site Ronnie suggested, do I understand that the intake and exhaust valves are not interchangeable because they're cut differently, if that's the case no wonder they're leaking?

cas3 · 01-23-2018, 12:49 AM

i agree with Kurt, you should know which ones to look at, and also many shops dont have the real flathead ford pilot that is long enough that it centers in the lifter bore, and also the guide bore so its all straight. i know of two "engine rebuilders" that have a home made tapered thing that only fits the in guide. they tell me it works, done tons of flatheads, but i dont buy it. your laping will just show what the problem is, but it wont fix it if things are not straight and cut right to start with.

flatheadmurre · 01-23-2018, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

Just went to a site Ronnie suggested, do I understand that the intake and exhaust valves are not interchangeable because they're cut differently, if that's the case no wonder they're leaking?

Seat angle and size are the same it´s the material they are made of that is different.

cas3 · 01-23-2018, 12:53 AM

intake and exhaust are generally only different materials due to high heat on the exhaust valve. race motors could have all kinds of other things goin on, not my area to discuss.

cas3 · 01-23-2018, 12:54 AM

murry beat me!

flatheadmurre · 01-23-2018, 01:00 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by cas3

i agree with Kurt, you should know which ones to look at, and also many shops dont have the real flathead ford pilot that is long enough that it centers in the lifter bore, and also the guide bore so its all straight. i know of two "engine rebuilders" that have a home made tapered thing that only fits the in guide. they tell me it works, done tons of flatheads, but i dont buy it. your laping will just show what the problem is, but it wont fix it if things are not straight and cut right to start with.

Your valve guide is only centered in the upper bore...so why shouldn´t your pilot be the same ??
More of the factory buillt pilots are short then long...the most common long ones are B&D...kwik way, Sioux are short.

cas3 · 01-23-2018, 10:54 AM

in my thinking, using a pilot that is only in the upper bore, you could be crooked and not in a true line with the lifter, which would then cause premature wear on one side of the guide. but...i am no expert engine guy. when i bought my old black and decker super service valve machine a few years back, it came with 3 long pilots for fords. i sold the two extra on ebay and nearly got the machine paid for!

BUBBAS IGNITION · 01-23-2018, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

The consensus seems to be to re-lap the old fashioned way and thats what I'll do.
Am surprised that I have valve problems also but leak down test says that I do.
After pulling heads today I found these deposits in the water way passages, something I haven't seen before. I'm using a product called No-Rosion (aluminum heads) and a water wetter, is this why I'm seeing these deposits?

Thats stuff is terrible! Clean it up add a good brand of antifreeze and a small bottle of bars leak. That will give you the proper additives you need....

36tudordeluxe · 01-23-2018, 11:34 AM

My valves are all S.S. so they're interchangeable, when I saw SPEEDWAY cuts the their intake and exhaust differently, I thought maybe that was the problem.
Will post pictures of seats and valves in the next couple of days.
Will flush cooling system and get rid of the NO-ROSION, try and sacrificial anode. would dis-tilled water be a good idea to help reduce erosion?
Thanks for the help guys.

Mart · 01-23-2018, 11:48 AM

Not on it's own. Just use it with some good quality anti-freeze/summer coolant, like in your modern car.

Mart.

SofaKing · 01-23-2018, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

My valves are all S.S. so they're interchangeable, when I saw SPEEDWAY cuts the their intake and exhaust differently, I thought maybe that was the problem.
Will post pictures of seats and valves in the next couple of days.
Will flush cooling system and get rid of the NO-ROSION, try and sacrificial anode. would dis-tilled water be a good idea to help reduce erosion?
Thanks for the help guys.

Have you determined if that sludge in your water jacket is water soluable? I am speculating that no-rosion and water wetter are incompatible judging from that photo. You can expect that sludge to be everywhere, radiator, heater core, water pumps, block, etc. You might try testing what will dissolve it before you button things up and attempt a flush.

I am also curious why folks prefer a marker to check their valve margin, seems like the ink would be too thin, and dry too quickly, to transfer and be a useful indicator.

FlatheadTed · 01-23-2018, 02:23 PM

You need composite gaskets with Aluminium .observe the use life of anty freeze it becomes corrosive after a while .I prefer soluble oil .Ted

scooder · 01-23-2018, 04:25 PM

I'm lead to believe that the proper modern red antifreeze can attack the lead soulder in our old radiators and heater cores. So I use older type blue stuff.
Martin.

36tudordeluxe · 01-31-2018, 12:20 AM

So heres a few pictures of my leaky valves, (90 over 75) on leak down test on my worst cylinder # 4.

I had very recently honed the cylinders and installed new rings and am surprised to see this ridge line at the top of all the cylinders, any thoughts on this?

Anything about the valves or seats that jump out at you?

Mart · 01-31-2018, 06:45 AM

Are the valve/seat angles mismatched? The contact seems to be a single thin line(???).

I'd grind/lap em in and reset the gaps and start running it again.

The gaskets look reusable to me too. (I'm a cheapskate).

Mart.

JWL · 01-31-2018, 09:39 AM

There is no assurance the tappet bore and the valve seat are concentric. I stopped using my long pilot when I noticed the fresh cut seats were running well off center from where the valves had been operating. I think a good, snug fit into the valve guide bore is the proper place for piloting.

Lapping of the valve/seat must be done with a minimum of compound spread evenly. It must not be allowed to vary in thickness or allowed to "stack up". Using the back and forth, lifting and shifting locations method is my recommendation.

Are the valve spring pressures and the tappet clearances correct?

cas3 · 01-31-2018, 12:13 PM

JWL, its interesting that you quit using the long pilot. i too have seen valves that seemed off center from the pilot, but always assumed it was because the guy before me used a short pilot. you dont think the factory had that all straight when they did it?

supereal · 01-31-2018, 12:25 PM

At our shop we replace all valve seats eliminating lapping in rebuilds. If your engine needs valve lapping, it is probably due to seat erosion or previous poor installation.

flatjack9 · 01-31-2018, 01:22 PM

My tool pilots in the both the lifter bore and the guide bore.

36tudordeluxe · 01-31-2018, 02:02 PM

Thanks for responding everyone, I value your opinions.

As far as seat pressure, the springs are a stock type and I have gone through the valves twice to confirm clearances.

In the picture I posted,. does anyone have an opinion as to what the ridge at the top of the cylinder is and should I be concerned?

Will proceed by hand lapping the valves, some have mentioned success in using a black marker pen rather than the blue stuff, what should I look for when using the black marker.

Mart thinks the head gaskets are re-useable, I was hoping that would be the case.

01-23-2018, 12:45 AM	#21
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Re: Valve laping with power drill? Just went to a site Ronnie suggested, do I understand that the intake and exhaust valves are not interchangeable because they're cut differently, if that's the case no wonder they're leaking?

01-23-2018, 12:49 AM	#22
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,577	Re: Valve laping with power drill? i agree with Kurt, you should know which ones to look at, and also many shops dont have the real flathead ford pilot that is long enough that it centers in the lifter bore, and also the guide bore so its all straight. i know of two "engine rebuilders" that have a home made tapered thing that only fits the in guide. they tell me it works, done tons of flatheads, but i dont buy it. your laping will just show what the problem is, but it wont fix it if things are not straight and cut right to start with.

01-23-2018, 12:53 AM	#24
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,577	Re: Valve laping with power drill? intake and exhaust are generally only different materials due to high heat on the exhaust valve. race motors could have all kinds of other things goin on, not my area to discuss.

01-23-2018, 12:54 AM	#25
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,577	Re: Valve laping with power drill? murry beat me!

01-23-2018, 10:54 AM	#27
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,577	Re: Valve laping with power drill? in my thinking, using a pilot that is only in the upper bore, you could be crooked and not in a true line with the lifter, which would then cause premature wear on one side of the guide. but...i am no expert engine guy. when i bought my old black and decker super service valve machine a few years back, it came with 3 long pilots for fords. i sold the two extra on ebay and nearly got the machine paid for!

01-23-2018, 11:34 AM	#29
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Re: Valve laping with power drill? My valves are all S.S. so they're interchangeable, when I saw SPEEDWAY cuts the their intake and exhaust differently, I thought maybe that was the problem. Will post pictures of seats and valves in the next couple of days. Will flush cooling system and get rid of the NO-ROSION, try and sacrificial anode. would dis-tilled water be a good idea to help reduce erosion? Thanks for the help guys.

01-23-2018, 11:48 AM	#30
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Valve laping with power drill? Not on it's own. Just use it with some good quality anti-freeze/summer coolant, like in your modern car. Mart.

01-23-2018, 02:23 PM	#32
FlatheadTed Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auckland Posts: 4,705	Re: Valve laping with power drill? You need composite gaskets with Aluminium .observe the use life of anty freeze it becomes corrosive after a while .I prefer soluble oil .Ted __________________ http://www.flatheadted.com Flathead Ted brake Floaters ,

01-23-2018, 04:25 PM	#33
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: Valve laping with power drill? I'm lead to believe that the proper modern red antifreeze can attack the lead soulder in our old radiators and heater cores. So I use older type blue stuff. Martin.

01-31-2018, 06:45 AM	#35
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Valve laping with power drill? Are the valve/seat angles mismatched? The contact seems to be a single thin line(???). I'd grind/lap em in and reset the gaps and start running it again. The gaskets look reusable to me too. (I'm a cheapskate). Mart.

01-31-2018, 09:39 AM	#36
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Valve laping with power drill? There is no assurance the tappet bore and the valve seat are concentric. I stopped using my long pilot when I noticed the fresh cut seats were running well off center from where the valves had been operating. I think a good, snug fit into the valve guide bore is the proper place for piloting. Lapping of the valve/seat must be done with a minimum of compound spread evenly. It must not be allowed to vary in thickness or allowed to "stack up". Using the back and forth, lifting and shifting locations method is my recommendation. Are the valve spring pressures and the tappet clearances correct?

01-31-2018, 12:13 PM	#37
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,577	Re: Valve laping with power drill? JWL, its interesting that you quit using the long pilot. i too have seen valves that seemed off center from the pilot, but always assumed it was because the guy before me used a short pilot. you dont think the factory had that all straight when they did it?

01-31-2018, 12:25 PM	#38
supereal Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Re: Valve laping with power drill? At our shop we replace all valve seats eliminating lapping in rebuilds. If your engine needs valve lapping, it is probably due to seat erosion or previous poor installation.

01-31-2018, 01:22 PM	#39
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: Valve laping with power drill? My tool pilots in the both the lifter bore and the guide bore.

01-31-2018, 02:02 PM	#40
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Re: Valve laping with power drill? Thanks for responding everyone, I value your opinions. As far as seat pressure, the springs are a stock type and I have gone through the valves twice to confirm clearances. In the picture I posted,. does anyone have an opinion as to what the ridge at the top of the cylinder is and should I be concerned? Will proceed by hand lapping the valves, some have mentioned success in using a black marker pen rather than the blue stuff, what should I look for when using the black marker. Mart thinks the head gaskets are re-useable, I was hoping that would be the case.