T5 advice

[KJ714]

So I’ve read the T5 threads, I’m looking to have one built.

It sounds like to me I want a WC pre 93 S10 Chevy bolt pattern 14 spline input 26 spline output 3.76 mechanical speedo box to go behind a 36 flattie using a speedway conversion kit. Is this right? Or did I get something wrong? There’s so much info out there it gets kinda confusing reading through it.

Edit - since I’m having it built, what would be the best 1st gear? Not looking to do burnouts, 21 stud driveability is key.

[Krylon32]

Check my ad on here. Been selling the T5 kits since the mid 90's. Most complete kit on the market. Cost's more money but most of it is made in the USA. Kit price $625 plus shipping. Been selling rebuilt S10 T5's for over 20 years, currently $1430 delivered to your door. Speedometer drive depends on core availability. Gary at Cornhusker Rod And Custom

[Pete]

I would recommend a #202 gear set with a 4.10 rear end.
Have a street "L" installed in the side filler hole to raise the lube level 1/2 inch.
Helps with long life of the system.
Have 2 bushings installed in the tail shaft housing for the slip joint. Helps make for long life of the system.
Buy or make a short shifter.
Helps increase driving pleasure.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by KJ714

So I’ve read the T5 threads, I’m looking to have one built.

It sounds like to me I want a WC pre 93 S10 Chevy bolt pattern 14 spline input 26 spline output 3.76 mechanical speedo box to go behind a 36 flattie using a speedway conversion kit. Is this right? Or did I get something wrong? There’s so much info out there it gets kinda confusing reading through it.

Edit - since I’m having it built, what would be the best 1st gear? Not looking to do burnouts, 21 stud driveability is key.

You're right, there are truckloads of information available about T5s on the internet and not all of it is necessarily accurate info, and there is also misleading info out there.

One of the most-misunderstood aspects of T5 in these old cars is the idea of the need to use an "S-10" T5. Way back when, someone realized that the shifter on an "S-10" T5 was quite a few inches forward of most other T5 shifters. That's a great discovery as it makes it possible to have the shifter located quite a bit forward of a bench seat, or at least in a comfortable spot of the floor in your project car. BUT ..... "S-10" T5 transmissions all came out of little, wimpy 4-cylinder or V6 pick-ups that had very little grunt. For that reason, the GM folks stipulated that they wanted what was essentially a "GRANDMA" first gear of either a 4.03 or 3.76 ratio so that the things had a chance of reasonable acceleration when taking off from a stop light. You should realize that most old Ford V8 3-speed transmissions with a 28-tooth cluster gear had a 2.82 1st gear ratio, and that when you take off from a stop light in 1st gear, the speed and acceleration realized seems abundantly normal. If you use an "S-10" trans as-is in your project, you will more than likely find 1st gear to be almost useless in everyday driving. Gears and gear ratios in these old cars can make or break a project when swapping major parts like this. Planning and understanding of gear ratios and tire diameters should be of paramount importance.

The best of both worlds can be had with this T5 basic design. The Borg-Warner engineers made it almost TOO easy with this T5. It is such a forgiving basic transmission as far as swapping factory parts to come-up with different configurations. B-W T5s were originally built with only TWO different main cases ..... one with a GM bolt pattern like a Muncie has, and the other with the later Ford pattern like seen in a billion Mustangs. They are BOTH 9-1/4" front to rear. Both will readily accept ANY T5 gearset internally. This means that the "S-10" parts will readily bolt to the rear of any T5 case to locate that shifter right where you want it, yet with the option to use a gearset that is user-friendly for almost any kind of driving you have in mind.

If you're going to have one of the T5 rebuilding services to BUILD a transmission for you, you're way ahead of the game. Those guys have all of the parts available to them to build your "DREAM Trans". I just worked with another FordBarner that had a "DREAM" trans built by a rebuilder in Vancouver. He had a GM case mated with an "S-10" tail shaft housing and shift rod. He had them use an S-10 main shaft so that the speedometer gear located in the correct position with relation to the speedo hole on the tail shaft housing. Most importantly, he had the rebuilder use a "close ratio" gearset out of a V8 Camaro which has a 26-spline input shaft and a 2.95 1st gear. That 2.95 is only slightly higher numerically than that 2.82 Ford gear that we all use for 1st gear take-offs. Not only that, but the rebuilder happened to have on hand the relatively rare pair of 5th gear O/D gears to give him a .76 O/D ratio rather than the usual .63 O/D with that close ratio gearset. One more thing many don't realize about the 1st gear ratios we're talking about. The 1st gear ratio in any transmission is going to determine the overall torque rating of the transmission. Those T5s with 4.03 & 3.76 1st gears have a much lower torque rating than the 2.95 1st gear boxes.

Don't be afraid of a NWC (Non World Class) T5 as the only real difference between WC and NWC is the bearing type used to support the cluster gear as well as the type of friction material used on the synchronizers. NOTHING wrong with NWC T5s.

And going by your original post, I know of no "26-spline" output shaft. GM output shafts are 27-spline and Ford shafts are 28-spline. Hoping this helps you make an educated choice.

Coop


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[KJ714]

Good info all, thanks! The various T5 threads out there have great info, it’s a firehose though. So it’s good to get zero’d in with the fellow flatties who have the specific knowledge.

[Krylon32]

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You guys can demean what I sell but as I said above I've sold a lot of the 3.76 first gear transmissions and I would say that in the almost 30 years I've had my T5 kit on the market the majority of the T-5's behind these kits have been that trans. The S 10 trans is ideal because of input shaft and bearing retainer length plus the shifter is a better location than a trans such as the Camero. The length of the Camero input shaft and bearing retainer is marginal, in fact it's basically to short. I can back with I say about my T5 kit with the number of sales and the successful trouble free use of my kit. I have fielded countless calls from people that have bought kits from other sources and are having problems. I'm not saying Coopman is wrong but the availability of replacement internals for these trans sometimes determines what gears they have.

[Ziggster]

When I purchased the lot of three T5s, I had no idea of the different types. I ended up rebuilding the one which was most complete which turned out to be a WC from a 89 Mustang. Having the shifter rearwards for me with my speedster build was actually a blessing, but I’ll still be moving the shifter handle to the outside of the body with some linkage. The only downside to using the Mustang T5 was having a sleeve machined for the input bearing retainer so I could use an early Ford throw-out bearing. Getting that simple sleeve machined was a crazy CAN$380!

[Krylon32]

Several years ago I was building a customer a FH powered 32 roadster and he sent me an adapter from Shadow Rods made for a Mustang trans which they provided with an S10 tail shaft. They included with the bell housing a Merc TO brg which didn't require a sleeve and had clips that went over the fork. Also used a diaphragm pp.

[Ol' Ron]

Just curious: What rear axle are you using???
Gramps

[flathead 53]

I am running A 53 f-100 merc flathead with an S-10 trans 3.76 first gear ,and A nine inch 59 f-100rear with 3.50 gears ,It is A great driver ,I drive it all the time no issues .

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Krylon32

You guys can demean what I sell but as I said above I've sold a lot of the 3.76 first gear transmissions and I would say that in the almost 30 years I've had my T5 kit on the market the majority of the T-5's behind these kits have been that trans. The S 10 trans is ideal because of input shaft and bearing retainer length plus the shifter is a better location than a trans such as the Camero. The length of the Camero input shaft and bearing retainer is marginal, in fact it's basically to short. I can back with I say about my T5 kit with the number of sales and the successful trouble free use of my kit. I have fielded countless calls from people that have bought kits from other sources and are having problems. I'm not saying Coopman is wrong but the availability of replacement internals for these trans sometimes determines what gears they have.

Gary ("Krylon32") ..... PLEASE UNDERSTAND that in no way have I consciously made an effort to cast ANY negativity toward your T5 kits. I've never had the pleasure of being associated with a Cornhusker T5 kit directly, but from what little I have heard about your kits, never have I heard a complaint about them, and it is well-known that YOU treat your customers well and that you stand behind what you sell. I HAVE heard that your kits are not geared toward the more robust T5s such as the Camaro V8, but you have openly alluded to that and explained why above in post #6. The main reason that you have sold so many of these "S-10-specific" transmissions is what I keep trying to preach and that is the fact that people hear "S-10" ..... for the shifter placement, yet don't realize that the parts that move the shifter forward can be incorporated in a T5 that DOES NOT incorporate the wimpy gear ratios. In fact, too many "car guys" lose track of the importance of gearing in general when creating a project. Choosing the 'wrong' gearing can certainly leave an ugly taste in a car builder's mouth if gearing isn't taken into account.

My pessimism with the 4.03 & 3.76 1st gear versions of the T5 should not be hard to follow if you think about the WHYS of MOST folks that go to the expense and trouble involved with changing-over from an old Ford 3-speed transmission to a more-modern T5. Compared with the Ford 3-speed, the T5 must be looked at as an upgrade in performance, as an improvement over an archaic transmission which now will sport five fully-synchronized gears that shift like butter, as well as the ability to take advantage of careful gear ratio selection so as to keep RPM performance in tighter power bands. As such, virtually anyone undertaking a swap like swapping a T5 onto the back of your flathead (or even 4-banger) MUST mean that you're seriously looking forward to ANY & ALL of the performance gains that such a swap can offer. I just CANNOT imagine anyone being excited about installing an "S-10" T5, and then upon the first drive finding out that you've run out of 1st gear at about 10 mph with that 4.03 "S-10" 1st gear ratio, especially with a 4.11 rear end. That might make a great PARADE car, though.

One more little bit of sugar on the candy to consider. Anyone considering such a swap should look into taking full advantage of the CLOSE RATIO gear set with the 2.95 1st gear, like I said above to keep your RPMs in a tighter power band. If you've never experienced the phenomenon, beg or borrow your way into a ride in a friend's Corvette equipped with a close-ratio Muncie transmission. Once you feel & realize what it's like for the RPMs to drop so little between gear shifts, you'll never even consider going back to an ordinary (non-close-ratio) T5. If you contact a rebuilder that can't supply you with the gearsets and parts you want, you simply go to the next one on your extensive list of T5 parts suppliers & builders. They are out there!

Coop


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[Krylon32]

Coopman: Please share with everyone on the HAMB your reliable source for the 2.95 gear se for the S10 T5. In order to be competitive they must be available, good quality, reasonably priced and preferably made in the USA. My rebuilder has been in the business for over 35 years and is finding the parts to rebuild the T5's getting more difficult to get. I have used this guy for a long time with minimal problems. I had tried rebuilders in Texas, Iowa and Illinois who wouldn't back up their rebuilds so I tend to stay where I don't have come backs.

[Tim Ayers]

Gary, totally understand your point as business person selling kits. Last thing you want are come backs.

Coop or Gary: Curious, is there a "newer" transmission with a similar bolt pattern that could take the place of the T5 once parts run out? One that incorporates the close ratio gearing and the O/D a lot of folks want?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Krylon32

Coopman: Please share with everyone on the HAMB your reliable source for the 2.95 gear se for the S10 T5. In order to be competitive they must be available, good quality, reasonably priced and preferably made in the USA. My rebuilder has been in the business for over 35 years and is finding the parts to rebuild the T5's getting more difficult to get. I have used this guy for a long time with minimal problems. I had tried rebuilders in Texas, Iowa and Illinois who wouldn't back up their rebuilds so I tend to stay where I don't have come backs.

Gary & Tim ..... I don't have any GOOD answers for either one of you. These T5 transmissions are suddenly over FORTY years old. Funny how almost everything that us kids play with has already, or is quickly becoming an ANTIQUATED, old used car part. Heck, we thought the old Ford 3-speeds were getting old and fragile with people like Mac VP having parts re-manufactured from sctatch just to keep the things mostly in service. Now, I realize that parts for these T5s are becoming a problem. Of course, there is NOS stuff still buried out there. It just needs to be unearthed. We know how all of that works. I honestly don't know of a reputable dealer in trans parts that could consistently supply close ratio gearsets. We're going to become dependent on selected, used gears for situations like this. It's the rebuild parts that concern me. Plus the fact that nobody is gearing-up to reproduce ANY of this stuff because word has it that NOBODY wants to drive a manual shift transmission any more, so the suppliers will eventually dry up. Just like Back Order Bob restocking with all the stuff he has been out of for eons.....ain't gonna happen 'cuz there ain't that many old geezers like us standing in line any more with cash in hand.

The only real replacement trans that I see is possibly that great big, newer and expensive Tremec "TKX". But those things are so expensive that sales will be far and few between, relatively speaking. And you won't be seeing them in the junkyards, either. Maybe any of y'all showing an interest in a T5 need to get-on with the program while there are still parts and options left to choose from. And anyone interested in building that "dream T5", there is still enough stock out there to get it done, but it won't last forever. The only thing keeping the T5 alive right now is that die-hard Mustang bunch that keep hammering on all those little Mustang T5s. Once the rebuild parts for the T5 disappear, the trans is doomed!

Coop


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[itslow]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

...is there a "newer" transmission with a similar bolt pattern that could take the place of the T5 once parts run out? One that incorporates the close ratio gearing and the O/D a lot of folks want?

The Tremec TKX is approximately the same length as a Camaro T5 and offers a shifter position similar to that of the S10 T5. It does vary from the T5 in the "girth" department. Not available with a tail shaft housing that can be converted to closed-drive like the Jeep T5. It is also expensive.

It has been discussed previously, too. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=290186

[sshep]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Gary, totally understand your point as business person selling kits. Last thing you want are come backs.

Coop or Gary: Curious, is there a "newer" transmission with a similar bolt pattern that could take the place of the T5 once parts run out? One that incorporates the close ratio gearing and the O/D a lot of folks want?

Yep, Tremac still does. They have been making brand new T-5's since acquiring them from B-W along time ago. Chevy or Ford bolt pattern, Forward or Rear shifter position, and available in a lot of different gear ratio sets to suit the end users requirements.



www.tremac.com

[sshep]

Originally Posted by itslow

The Tremec TKX is approximately the same length as a Camaro T5 and offers a shifter position similar to that of the S10 T5. It does vary from the T5 in the "girth" department. Not available with a tail shaft housing that can be converted to closed-drive like the Jeep T5. It is also expensive.

Mike you have a "Wanted Ardun parts" in the bottom of your posts and you are calling the TKX expensive? Lol

[itslow]

Originally Posted by sshep

Yep, Tremac still does. They have been making brand new T-5's since acquiring them from B-W along time ago. Chevy or Ford bolt pattern, Forward or Rear shifter position, and available in a lot of different gear ratio sets to suit the end users requirements.

Keep in mind new ones are Mustang spec and with only a single gearset. Not as easy to use in a EFV8 as the S10 housing.

Originally Posted by sshep

Mike you have a "Wanted Ardun parts" in the bottom of your posts and you are calling the TKX expensive? Lol

It's expensive relative to a T5. Folks will have sticker shock. Not that a fully rebuilt T5 is cheap anymore, either.

[Ol' Ron]

I;m using a n87 Mustang T-5. Not sure of the gearing but the trans adapter only cost $ 160 and are easy to make. Haven't used many T-5's, But the T-170 is abig hit in the old cars, and you can make your own adapter from a stamped steel bell housing. Most people buy or have guys like me put them together. Also installed a Toyota 5 speed the same way, but had to use some spacers. That's been running behind a 294 Flathead for years. Love to make things. I think that;s alost art, or ! People have alot of money.
Gramps

[sshep]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Love to make things. I think that;s alost art, or ! People have alot of money.
Gramps

I love to make things too, Ron. When I was young I didn't have a lot of money but I did have time to do/make things.



The reality is, like it or not, I have been on this earth longer than I am going to be. I don't have as much "time" anymore so to speak. I worked hard for many years and sacrificed some hobbies to get where I am. Not that I have a lot of money but I definitely have more than when I was younger. Soooo, I would rather spend "money" on certain things to move the projects along than spend "time" if that makes sense.



That said, I did not buy a new Tremac TKX. I have both the aforementioned S-10 and Camaro NWC T-5's. I was intrigued to say the least by Dick's excellent, detailed, write up on the T-5 closed drive conversion. After re-reading his write up multiple times and other related posts/articles, I did obtain the additional parts required to do that conversion as well. I purchased these parts, including the necessary adapter from a gentleman who makes them. To be honest I don't have the machines to make the adapter anyway.



FYI the required CJ Jeep T-5 parts for the closed drive conversion are not going to be easy to find. Not only are they being sought after by us but Jeep guys and other O/T car guys use them as well.



I am familiar with T-5's from my time working at a Ford dealership in the early to mid 90's, so I will do the work myself. I do think that for most buying Gary's or another suppliers T-5 kit is the way to go. As stated it is a complete kit and he/they can supply the S-10 trans if needed as well. He has a lot of them out there and a lot of very happy customers.



You can't take any of it (money or stuff) with you. So if there is something you want to buy, and it won't sink the ship getting it, go for it! We are only here for a little while, so might as well enjoy the ride.