The Ford Barn

Andy.TFA · 03-02-2023, 09:34 AM

Hello everyone, My apologies in advance as i am a noob to the Model A. I work in Pennsylvania at a fence company and have been put in charge of maintaining this Model A (Believe its an AA) The Owners Plan is to be able to take it out from time to time and and for it to be "Parade worthy" for events.

With this said, last fall it was taken down the street and back and as it was being put away it overheated (or was overfilled) and spewed coolant. we let it cool down a bit and then as i was backing it in, it caught fire at the carburetor.

I have and am continuing the great reads on this forum, and realize i am dealing with a few problems at this point.

I would believe the most important problem at this point would to be to stop the gas leak at the carb (Zenith). It seems to be coming (a small amount) from the flared gas line at the fittings under the hood from filter to carb. also seems to be leaking at the Idle mixture screw, but could be coming from other places as well, so my plan it to go though the carb and clean and inspect, replacing gaskets with rebuild kit (if needed) before trying to locate exact leak location.

The fact that it caught fire i would think is from a backfire from the mixture being too lean among other things.(don't remember hearing it backfire) Reading up on it, seems it could be caused by sticking float in the carb or incorrect float level. i would also think that improper timing could cause this but im not sure. (will diagnose this if it is backfiring after gas leak is fixed)

As far as the radiator overheating, i have NOT taken an temp readings or flushed with vinegar. There seems to be no coolant until its warmed up and then it rises up and it very murky. Makes sense to me to get the carb leak fixed before starting to work on the radiator.

I have not started with the work yet. Figured i would get some input from here before i start getting into it.

Thanks in advance, Andy

Andy.TFA · 03-02-2023, 03:02 PM

Didn't get the carbs off yet but going through it here is a couple notes-

Tank had emptied with fuel shut off - testing the shut off in the cab now but from reading on here i think its likely it need another shut off pre-carb.

There is a slight leak coming from the filter on the firewall at the fitting and i can wiggle fuel line in the fitting by hand so the double flare is most likely incorrect.

Main problem i noticed with the carb is its flooding, fuel coming from the intake/choke and even more so, the fuel is coming from the throttle shaft. there isnt really any play in it so it seems to be filling up over the venturi and leaking down to the throttle shaft. i have a feeling this carb hasn't been cleaned in a very long time. Going to try to get it off tomorrow and give it a thorough cleaning, checking to make sure there isn't any holes in the floats.

J Franklin · 03-02-2023, 04:09 PM

What kind of funds have the owners allotted for repairs and supplies? Tighten or replace the fuel lines and clean the carb first. Back flush the radiator and block next before running it again. Do you have any manuals for the truck? If not buy some.

Joe K · 03-02-2023, 04:50 PM

The radiator problem is "typical" of a car that probably has a radiator in it from the 1930s or 1940s.

Water ALWAYS has impurities in it. And heat causes the impurities to "drop out" and plate on the heat transfer surfaces.

Lubrication of the grease zerk on the water pump can introduce grease into and alongside the water pump impeller. This grease "disassociates" under heat and itself can plate out and coat heat transfer surface.

Corrosion can occur between the tubes and fins of the radiator. This is more common than is generally perceived. Corrosion retards heat flow between the tubes and fins and limits heat transfer. A solution for this is usually found in a new radiator core.

Timing can affect A LOT how much heat the engine creates. Good timing along might be enough to "get you over a thermal hump" and make the radiator at least functional.

Many use "flow restrictors" in the upper hose to limit flow, and in their minds this allows "sufficient cooling" so the water returns to the engine "cooler" and the system less likely to boil over. In my mind this MIGHT be a "bandaid fix," but many claim it solved their boiling over problems long term.

Flow through the radiator is usually "substantial" and this a reason that many run their radiator level "low" rather than continually overflowing and having to add more. Many also "cut down" their impeller to achieve a similar slowing. Ford themselves answering to this thought provided a "aftermarket" water pump which embodied the impeller of the later V8 but can be seen visually to be a third smaller in diameter.

Ford themselves advised "bending" the flow deflector in the top of the radiator (Service Bulletins) to "aim" flow downwards and place the overflow tube in the "quiet spot."

Probably the BEST solution would be a new radiator from a current reproducer. At present I know of two which are original copper-style radiator but Ebay shows "aluminimum" radiators which fill the spot and which many find satisfactory.

Still, having your present radiator "boiled out" and possibly disassembled and "rodded" may be a solution. This is best done with original type radiators. For a later 1950s era replacement "honeycomb" radiator this is not really possible - these radiators were at the time considered "highly efficient" but "throw-aways." And today I know of very few remaining.

Joe K

Andy.TFA · 03-03-2023, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Franklin

What kind of funds have the owners allotted for repairs and supplies? Tighten or replace the fuel lines and clean the carb first. Back flush the radiator and block next before running it again. Do you have any manuals for the truck? If not buy some.

Im sure he has funds for repairs but isnt really looking for a full restore just functional. That is my plan, I do have the "Model A instruction book" and various print-outs about carburetor and engine.

Andy.TFA · 03-03-2023, 08:39 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe K

The radiator problem is "typical" of a car that probably has a radiator in it from the 1930s or 1940s.

Water ALWAYS has impurities in it. And heat causes the impurities to "drop out" and plate on the heat transfer surfaces.

Lubrication of the grease zerk on the water pump can introduce grease into and alongside the water pump impeller. This grease "disassociates" under heat and itself can plate out and coat heat transfer surface.

Corrosion can occur between the tubes and fins of the radiator. This is more common than is generally perceived. Corrosion retards heat flow between the tubes and fins and limits heat transfer. A solution for this is usually found in a new radiator core.

Timing can affect A LOT how much heat the engine creates. Good timing along might be enough to "get you over a thermal hump" and make the radiator at least functional.

Many use "flow restrictors" in the upper hose to limit flow, and in their minds this allows "sufficient cooling" so the water returns to the engine "cooler" and the system less likely to boil over. In my mind this MIGHT be a "bandaid fix," but many claim it solved their boiling over problems long term.

Flow through the radiator is usually "substantial" and this a reason that many run their radiator level "low" rather than continually overflowing and having to add more. Many also "cut down" their impeller to achieve a similar slowing. Ford themselves answering to this thought provided a "aftermarket" water pump which embodied the impeller of the later V8 but can be seen visually to be a third smaller in diameter.

Ford themselves advised "bending" the flow deflector in the top of the radiator (Service Bulletins) to "aim" flow downwards and place the overflow tube in the "quiet spot."

Probably the BEST solution would be a new radiator from a current reproducer. At present I know of two which are original copper-style radiator but Ebay shows "aluminimum" radiators which fill the spot and which many find satisfactory.

Still, having your present radiator "boiled out" and possibly disassembled and "rodded" may be a solution. This is best done with original type radiators. For a later 1950s era replacement "honeycomb" radiator this is not really possible - these radiators were at the time considered "highly efficient" but "throw-aways." And today I know of very few remaining.

Joe K

Thanks for the response, i do believe a new reproduction radiator would be our best bet. its not the honeycomb but it does look in bad shape with fins bent and under the hood it looks like the fan may have at one point moved and pushed the fins from the back side. also inside around the fill cap it seems to be rusted out but i am not sure how much this would interfere with the cooling. once i get the carb cleaned up/functioning properly timing/flushing would be my next step. i am going to check with a thermometer and see if there is any cool spots that indicate a blockage which is likely and he might just opt for a new radiator.

Bob C · 03-03-2023, 11:07 AM

If you do go with a new radiator be aware that your truck has a Model A radiator on it. If getting a new AA radiator you will need to get a AA radiator shell that is wider than the Model A shell. The Model A radiator is 3 rows of tubes and the AA is 4.

Andy.TFA · 03-03-2023, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

If you do go with a new radiator be aware that your truck has a Model A radiator on it. If getting a new AA radiator you will need to get a AA radiator shell that is wider than the Model A shell. The Model A radiator is 3 rows of tubes and the AA is 4.

Thank you for the heads up! I believe it was bought as a model A. was there a model A truck? or the truck was the AA. I think i read the AA has an extra gear but i haven't checked yet. is there any other differences that would stand out between the A and the AA?

J Franklin · 03-03-2023, 11:34 AM

Your photo shows an AA Ford. The radiator shell is probably already the right one.

1955cj5 · 03-03-2023, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy.TFA

Thank you for the heads up! I believe it was bought as a model A. was there a model A truck? or the truck was the AA. I think i read the AA has an extra gear but i haven't checked yet. is there any other differences that would stand out between the A and the AA?

Post some pictures if you can.

There is a Model A pickup. Both a closed cab which would be nearly identical to the cab on your AA, and there is an open cab pickup.

You probably have a 4-speed transmission, and perhaps a second low range/high range transmission behind it. The A pickup would have primarily been a 3-speed, though there are variations.

The remainder of your truck would be much heavier and sturdier than a Model A pickup.

Pictures will identify what you have.

stickshift · 03-03-2023, 12:33 PM

Andy, I also have an AA (1931) and I am also new to the forum. I've had my truck since late Dec. and I have learned a lot in the past couple months. The AA has a 4 speed tranny with a typical H pattern 1st gear (granny) is left forward. Reverse has a thumb lever to prevent accidental gear crashing, far right and back. My radiator shroud is like the picture Bob C posted. The AA had two weight ratings, 1 ton and 1 1/2 ton. Based on the dual rear wheels, yours is a 1 1/2 ton. There were also two wheel bases, 131.5 and 157. Most are the shorter wheel base. I would suggest changing the transmission and rear differential fluid to be sure the correct fluid is in there. Mine had 90 weight in the trans. It should be the 600W just like used in the standard model A. This helps with the shifting since the gears are straight cut non syncro. Welcome to the club!

stickshift · 03-03-2023, 12:51 PM

Something I forgot to mention...You should also go through the timing procedure since you had an intake backfire. It took me about an hour the first time I did it. There are some good You tube videos on the method. Also, be sure to move the timing lever on the left of the steering column to the middle of travel after the engine starts. All the way up to start. Good videos on this also. Once you get used to the "secret handshake" of starting, it's second nature.

Chris Haynes · 03-03-2023, 02:30 PM

Clean the cooling system.
I drain and flush it with water.
Then I drain it again and fill it with a RUST911. Let it sit for 24 hours. You can drive it with this in the system.
Drain and flush with water.
Repeat the RUST911 treatment till it drains clear. This usually takes three applications.
You will now see your block, head and radiator are spotlessly clean with no rust or rust flakes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/20274521630...5bcb6572de9636

03-02-2023, 03:02 PM	#2
Andy.TFA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 5	Re: Model AA Truck Problems Didn't get the carbs off yet but going through it here is a couple notes- Tank had emptied with fuel shut off - testing the shut off in the cab now but from reading on here i think its likely it need another shut off pre-carb. There is a slight leak coming from the filter on the firewall at the fitting and i can wiggle fuel line in the fitting by hand so the double flare is most likely incorrect. Main problem i noticed with the carb is its flooding, fuel coming from the intake/choke and even more so, the fuel is coming from the throttle shaft. there isnt really any play in it so it seems to be filling up over the venturi and leaking down to the throttle shaft. i have a feeling this carb hasn't been cleaned in a very long time. Going to try to get it off tomorrow and give it a thorough cleaning, checking to make sure there isn't any holes in the floats.

03-02-2023, 04:09 PM	#3
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,965	Re: Model AA Truck Problems What kind of funds have the owners allotted for repairs and supplies? Tighten or replace the fuel lines and clean the carb first. Back flush the radiator and block next before running it again. Do you have any manuals for the truck? If not buy some.

03-02-2023, 04:50 PM	#4
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: Model AA Truck Problems The radiator problem is "typical" of a car that probably has a radiator in it from the 1930s or 1940s. Water ALWAYS has impurities in it. And heat causes the impurities to "drop out" and plate on the heat transfer surfaces. Lubrication of the grease zerk on the water pump can introduce grease into and alongside the water pump impeller. This grease "disassociates" under heat and itself can plate out and coat heat transfer surface. Corrosion can occur between the tubes and fins of the radiator. This is more common than is generally perceived. Corrosion retards heat flow between the tubes and fins and limits heat transfer. A solution for this is usually found in a new radiator core. Timing can affect A LOT how much heat the engine creates. Good timing along might be enough to "get you over a thermal hump" and make the radiator at least functional. Many use "flow restrictors" in the upper hose to limit flow, and in their minds this allows "sufficient cooling" so the water returns to the engine "cooler" and the system less likely to boil over. In my mind this MIGHT be a "bandaid fix," but many claim it solved their boiling over problems long term. Flow through the radiator is usually "substantial" and this a reason that many run their radiator level "low" rather than continually overflowing and having to add more. Many also "cut down" their impeller to achieve a similar slowing. Ford themselves answering to this thought provided a "aftermarket" water pump which embodied the impeller of the later V8 but can be seen visually to be a third smaller in diameter. Ford themselves advised "bending" the flow deflector in the top of the radiator (Service Bulletins) to "aim" flow downwards and place the overflow tube in the "quiet spot." Probably the BEST solution would be a new radiator from a current reproducer. At present I know of two which are original copper-style radiator but Ebay shows "aluminimum" radiators which fill the spot and which many find satisfactory. Still, having your present radiator "boiled out" and possibly disassembled and "rodded" may be a solution. This is best done with original type radiators. For a later 1950s era replacement "honeycomb" radiator this is not really possible - these radiators were at the time considered "highly efficient" but "throw-aways." And today I know of very few remaining. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

03-03-2023, 11:34 AM	#9
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,965	Re: Model AA Truck Problems Your photo shows an AA Ford. The radiator shell is probably already the right one.

03-03-2023, 12:33 PM	#11
stickshift Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2023 Location: Grass Valley, Ca Posts: 247	Re: Model AA Truck Problems Andy, I also have an AA (1931) and I am also new to the forum. I've had my truck since late Dec. and I have learned a lot in the past couple months. The AA has a 4 speed tranny with a typical H pattern 1st gear (granny) is left forward. Reverse has a thumb lever to prevent accidental gear crashing, far right and back. My radiator shroud is like the picture Bob C posted. The AA had two weight ratings, 1 ton and 1 1/2 ton. Based on the dual rear wheels, yours is a 1 1/2 ton. There were also two wheel bases, 131.5 and 157. Most are the shorter wheel base. I would suggest changing the transmission and rear differential fluid to be sure the correct fluid is in there. Mine had 90 weight in the trans. It should be the 600W just like used in the standard model A. This helps with the shifting since the gears are straight cut non syncro. Welcome to the club! __________________ Stickshift 1915 Model T touring 1931 Ford Model AA Flatbed

03-03-2023, 12:51 PM	#12
stickshift Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2023 Location: Grass Valley, Ca Posts: 247	Re: Model AA Truck Problems Something I forgot to mention...You should also go through the timing procedure since you had an intake backfire. It took me about an hour the first time I did it. There are some good You tube videos on the method. Also, be sure to move the timing lever on the left of the steering column to the middle of travel after the engine starts. All the way up to start. Good videos on this also. Once you get used to the "secret handshake" of starting, it's second nature. __________________ Stickshift 1915 Model T touring 1931 Ford Model AA Flatbed

03-03-2023, 02:30 PM	#13
Chris Haynes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camarillo, CA and Pine Grove, CA Posts: 2,832	Re: Model AA Truck Problems Clean the cooling system. I drain and flush it with water. Then I drain it again and fill it with a RUST911. Let it sit for 24 hours. You can drive it with this in the system. Drain and flush with water. Repeat the RUST911 treatment till it drains clear. This usually takes three applications. You will now see your block, head and radiator are spotlessly clean with no rust or rust flakes. https://www.ebay.com/itm/20274521630...5bcb6572de9636 __________________ 1921 Runabout 1930 Tudor Early 1930 AA Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?