Restamping a restamped block

[rotorwrench]

The sub rail extensions pretty well rule the window hole out. Too much to cut through which includes the front body block on that left side.

[JayJay]

I'll add my experience in. My '30 Town Sedan came to me with the original (titled) number on the frame and that number had been (poorly) restamped into the engine. If you look closely you can even see where portions of the old engine number were not ground out completely. This is obviously a professional engine rebuild since the rebuilding parameters (bore oversize, crank main and rod journal undersize) are stamped into the flat above the manifold. Grinding off the old number would mhave been logically done at rebuild. I surmise that the number was stamped into the engine at the time of the engine swap. The restamp is the wrong digits, doesn't have the stars, and is poorly and unevenly done. This was good enough for the previous owner to get it titled in California after bringing in the car with a Wisconsin title. I've heard others tell me that when doing a VIN verification (for example, when changing to a Year-of-Manfuacture plate) all the DMV is looking for is a proper number somewhere.

If I reuse this engine in the restoration I'll grind out the restamped numbers, scale the flat to add texture, and then restamp the same number with a proper set of stamps. If I use another engine or my Burtz in this car then I'll stamp the proper number using those same stamps. I'm also planning to stamp the frame number on the bottom of the frame rail where the true number is on the top.

An early post in this thread noted that "It is illegal in every state to remove or modify a manufacturers number". I'm not a legal beagle, but I suspect that applies to VIN (as it should). Model As did not come with VIN, the VIN came into being in the early 1950's I believe.

JayJay

[WHN]

Originally Posted by JayJay

I'll add my experience in. My '30 Town Sedan came to me with the original (titled) number on the frame and that number had been (poorly) restamped into the engine. If you look closely you can even see where portions of the old engine number were not ground out completely. This is obviously a professional engine rebuild since the rebuilding parameters (bore oversize, crank main and rod journal undersize) are stamped into the flat above the manifold. Grinding off the old number would mhave been logically done at rebuild. I surmise that the number was stamped into the engine at the time of the engine swap. The restamp is the wrong digits, doesn't have the stars, and is poorly and unevenly done. This was good enough for the previous owner to get it titled in California after bringing in the car with a Wisconsin title. I've heard others tell me that when doing a VIN verification (for example, when changing to a Year-of-Manfuacture plate) all the DMV is looking for is a proper number somewhere.

If I reuse this engine in the restoration I'll grind out the restamped numbers, scale the flat to add texture, and then restamp the same number with a proper set of stamps. If I use another engine or my Burtz in this car then I'll stamp the proper number using those same stamps. I'm also planning to stamp the frame number on the bottom of the frame rail where the true number is on the top.

An early post in this thread noted that "It is illegal in every state to remove or modify a manufacturers number". I'm not a legal beagle, but I suspect that applies to VIN (as it should). Model As did not come with VIN, the VIN came into being in the early 1950's I believe.

JayJay

Plan the work, work the plan!

[rackops]

Totally out of left field...how hard is it to get a 17-digit VIN assigned to the car?

My car had a 17-digit VIN assigned in South Africa, as it was required by law at the time. The 17 digits include information about it being a South African assigned number, the car being in the "experimental/home built/antique" category, and such. It's nice because that's what the car is titled under here in the US, so if I change out the engine at any point, the VIN isn't affected.

That said, I am interested in this thread because I'd like to re-stamp the US-numbered engine with the correct Canadian number to match the frame. Luckily, I was able to find an engine from the same month in 1928, so if I don't restamp it, at least it's the correct month. If I do, then it will still be the same age as the car.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by rackops

Totally out of left field...how hard is it to get a 17-digit VIN assigned to the car?

My car had a 17-digit VIN assigned in South Africa, as it was required by law at the time. The 17 digits include information about it being a South African assigned number, the car being in the "experimental/home built/antique" category, and such. It's nice because that's what the car is titled under here in the US, so if I change out the engine at any point, the VIN isn't affected.

That said, I am interested in this thread because I'd like to re-stamp the US-numbered engine with the correct Canadian number to match the frame. Luckily, I was able to find an engine from the same month in 1928, so if I don't restamp it, at least it's the correct month. If I do, then it will still be the same age as the car.

In California, it's not too difficult to get a VIN assigned. You fill out the paperwork and pay the fees ('natch), then take it to the DMV with your supporting documentation that you indeed own the car. The inspector looks to make sure the actual car conforms to the description, that your paperwork is in order, then assigns a number and provides you with a tag with that number. The tag gets attached to the car, that number gets associated with the paperwork (title, registration) and away you go. It's up to you to coordinate with the insurance company. I've not done it myself but a colleague did it, his tag was attached to the inside of the A-pillar near the door hinge.

JayJay

[Phil Brown]

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California does not care about the number on the engine, it's the number on the frame that they recognize as the identification number. It is a "VIN" number just not a 17-digit VIN. because it's from a time before the federal standards mandated 17 digits.
You can add your "identification" numbers in other locations if you want, no problems. But I can tell ya if your car needs to be positively identified (think theft recovery) the body will come off and it will need unaltered numbers in the correct location.
So do what you want with the engine numbers Calif. Will not use them as identification

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

California does not care about the number on the engine, it's the number on the frame that they recognize as the identification number. It is a "VIN" number just not a 17-digit VIN. because it's from a time before the federal standards mandated 17 digits.
You can add your "identification" numbers in other locations if you want, no problems. But I can tell ya if your car needs to be positively identified (think theft recovery) the body will come off and it will need unaltered numbers in the correct location.
So do what you want with the engine numbers Calif. Will not use them as identification

Completely agree, Phil. My point was not for theft recovery, but for title issues. I've known several folks who needed to do "VIN verification" when either changing to Year-of-Manufacture plates or bringing in out-of-state cars, and in every case the DMV clerk has checked the engine number to match it against the title and registration (after all, it's not reasonable to ask an owner to remove the body simply to change license plates!). In one case I know (car brought in from Oregon) the engine number did not match the title so come title transfer and registration DMV assigned a random VIN on a tag. The engine number does not match the title on my '31 (although it's the right year), so if I ever have the engine out I'll likely do something about that as an investment in the future. (I presume the title is the frame number - the date of that number matches the characteristics of an early '31 - but I'm not going to pull the body to check.)

JayJay

[cokefirst]

Having been a law enforcement officer in California (retired) I can tell you that the frame stamp is considered the VIN number for the vehicle and the engine number is nice but not not the final determinator of the actual VIN.

My AA that I have owned for over 40 years was titled with the engine number which was not a Model A number. It was something like R4362M. I had my engine removed and rebuilt and I did not get back the original block so I wanted to correct the VIN so it would comply with the frame. I pulled the cab and sanded down the area where the vin number was located. The frame had been painted when I had it originally restored right after the purchase.

This truck should have gone to the crusher. There was not a piece of straight sheet metal on the truck, no glass, no instrument cluster, no seat and banged up and rusty. The reason I wanted the truck was that it had the Fender mounted spare. I had it restored at great expense but after 40 years, I wanted a refresh.

The VIN on the frame was barely visible due to metal corrosion over it's first 40 + years of service. I had all the documentation from Steve Plucker and I spoke with the vehicle verifier officer who came to my shop to look at the vin. Unfortunately, he added a 4 to the end of the VIN which should have been the star. So the VIN is still not correct but he would not change it because he has to put down what he sees even though I had solid evidence that the Model A engines only go into the 4500000 range.

I am going to have someone restamp the engine with the correct VIN and call it a day. They did say that if I did that, I could have my engine seized as modified VIN and that it would not be returned and I could be arrested yada, yada. So sometimes it difficult to do the right thing.

[Phil Brown]

Calif. DMV should not be using the engine numbers. Their own statutes state to use frame numbers, but....... I know that it's not reasonable to remove the body but really when was the last time DMV was reasonable ?
if you ever have to deal with the CHP regarding numbers just hope there correct and not altered on the frame because they will let you know right away those are the ones that are used for the vehicle identification and they are pretty sharp about what there looking for.
Hope this helps

[TerryH]

I bought my Model A in 2006 from a gentleman in New York, and it came with a NY registration and barely legible frame rubbing, but no title. I live in S. California and had heard from car guy friends that the AAA can register and title old cars. I contacted the Newport Beach office & got an appointment with their long time classic car specialist. I brought in my paperwork, along with the rubbings, which he barely glanced at. He then said he wanted to see the car, so we did, and then he said he wanted to see the engine. He looked at the engine number (which was correct, but not original) and said I was good. A few weeks later I got my Calif title, with the engine number as the vin, along with the registration, and plates. Could not have been easier. My experience using AAA in California was wonderful and much easier than using the DMV.

[Phil Brown]

AAA is great and really easy for some things, but there are things they will not do like year of manufacturer plates. That is where registration services really help and I find myself using them all of the time now.
Also sounds like a lot of inconsistency throughout the DMV people after reading through some of the above posts. Several cars over the years with year of manufacture plates and none of them ever needed vin verification, maybe just lucky ?
DMV just sucks to deal with.

[aermotor]

I had a VIN inspector verify that my engine number and body number were the same and got a letter to that effect. Will this help if I change the engine with a different engine number?

[51504bat]

Don't know about your state but in CA I would get a DMV assigned vin before changing the engine. Since your engine number and frame number match it should be fairly straight forward. Once the engine that matches the title is removed the you'll only have the frame number (under the body) to verify ownership if a question ever comes up. I've passed on several Model A's where the number on the title didn't match the engine number and I had no way to verify the frame number. JMO

[Rene R]

When I bought a '28 Fordor out of Oklahoma I drove it to my local California DMV to register it and get YOM plates assigned. I took books with me that specified that Model As used the engine number as the VIN. I never needed to show them. The inspector went out to check the car, saw that the engine number matched the OK title, and signed off on it. Piece of cake. Getting the plates approved was also routine, and fast. (Fortunately the car had the original engine.)

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

California does not care about the number on the engine, it's the number on the frame that they recognize as the identification number. It is a "VIN" number just not a 17-digit VIN. because it's from a time before the federal standards mandated 17 digits.
You can add your "identification" numbers in other locations if you want, no problems. But I can tell ya if your car needs to be positively identified (think theft recovery) the body will come off and it will need unaltered numbers in the correct location.
So do what you want with the engine numbers Calif. Will not use them as identification

My 1930 has a Diamond A block. Someone stamped M88 on the number boss. That is the number my car in CA is registered with.

[russfororig]

Hi, Not everyone wants their original car mutilated with a state assigned vin number. Whats wrong with a change of engine/number form that some states still use and Calif. ill advisedly got rid of in the 1970s. At one time this may have made it easier to reregister a stolen car, but nowadays Model As and Ts are rarely taken compared to modern cars except by accident in enclosed trailers. However in my city a Victoria was stolen by rat rodders and all that was recovered was chassis components. Such people would just remove a state assigned tag and sell the parts at a swapmeet.

[mcorrell]

Problem resolved! I made a plate about 1/16 inch thick the exact shape of the cast boss, roughened it up to look like a cast surface, stamped in the engine number, and then glued the plate over the old number. This makes the boss about the same height before being ground down. All I need to do is to paint the engine so that everything matches.