Out of ideas and knowledge

[Eddie Morgan]

Long-winded post so bear with me. First, to clear the air --- it has been "suggested" that I'm just throwing parts at the car (1953 Merc' Custom) to solve a problem. NOT TRUE. When I got the car, I changed out routine maintenance parts ... tune-up parts, etc. Some of the parts I believe were as old as the car.
Now to my problem, and what I've checked:
All grounds are clean and tight. Battery is new 6V 575CCA
All battery/starter cables are 00
Had starter checked -- armature fried, replaced starter with new, not rebuild

With a full charged battery, it might start ... or not. Second attempt, etc it acts like the battery is dead. I need help !!! I don't know where to check now.
With plugs out, engine turns over .......... compression check shows 95psi all cylinders .... got gas, got spark. Something funky with the starter?

[swedishsteel]

Does it run smooth when it starts? Could have plug wires on wrong plugs and out of time, fighting itself. Just a thought

[J Franklin]

Take it to your friendly auto electric shop and have them do a thorough diagnosis. You say it might or might not start. Do you know why it didn't start? How long are you cranking before it starts? A shop or dealership should be equipped to find an answer.

[Lanny]

hi Eddie, just curious if you have cleaned the cable terminals on the Solenoid ?
And/Or, maybe the starter solenoid needs replacing...





.

[kurt v]

I would get a 850 cca battery, no paint on starter face and no paint on bell housing for good ground.

[petehoovie]

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What kurt v said, above...

[Flathead Fever]

This is what you need to do. You need to do a "voltage drop test" This is done while you are trying to crank the starter. I tell people to do this on their electrical problems and they "never" come back saying they tried it. This how an automotive electrical shop or good mechanic finds these problems. It's fast and easy.

The electricity is "exactly like water in a pipe. Voltage is the pressure and amperage is the amount of flow. If you had a blockage in your water system, you would have high pressure (voltage) above the blockage and zero or low pressure after the blockage. We can check for that blockage with a voltmeter. If you put the meters leads on both sides of the blockage while cranking the voltage will look for a way around the blockage through the meter. A zero volt reading would mean there is no blockage a voltage reading more than .2 of a volt means there is a blockage. You start at the battery, put one probe on the center battery post and one on the cable and try to crank the engine. If you saw 4 volts you would know you have a bad connection at the battery post, Then you move the probes to each end of the battery cable and crank the engine. If you see 2V you have resistance in the cable. You keep doing this across every cable, connection and device until you find the resistance. Just because you have new parts doesn't mean they are good. Ever see the manufacturer forget to strip the insulation off a battery cable before they crimped on the end. I worked with a Ford dealer mechanic that had that happen on a new car and nobody could figure out why it started sometimes and other times it did not. A voltage drop test across that new cable found the problem. Watch this video and others. This is how your going to find your problem without guessing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc

[Floyd]

Define "new starter". Around these vintage cars, I am always afraid of NEW anything. Especially with so much good, NOS and usable or rebuilt genuine fords parts available. Sort out what you have before throwing money around.
Helpful hint- a worn out Ford part is almost always better than anything new.

[cadillac512]

Hi Eddie


Flathead Fever is correct...that's how you do it properly. Make sure you test battery voltage while cranking... first thing before doing any more tests. New batteries aren't always good batteries.



Terry

[5851a]

When it does start is the charging system working? If you charge the battery up slowly overnight will it start the next try? Is it just me or does 575 CCA seem a little low for 6 volt? Just asking. Volt drop test sounds like good idea.

[BlueSpark]

Flathead is absolutely right. You can get a voltmeter cheap but watch out for the ones that are so cheap they are sometimes used as giveaways. You will find the problem, guaranteed.

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by swedishsteel

Does it run smooth when it starts? Could have plug wires on wrong plugs and out of time, fighting itself. Just a thought

When it starts, it's smooth and quiet. If it doesn't start, I hit the button again and it sounds like the battery is almost dead. All my grounds are clean and tight.

[Eddie Morgan]

[QUOTE=Lanny;2219212]hi Eddie, just curious if you have cleaned the cable terminals on the Solenoid ?
And/Or, maybe the starter solenoid needs replacing...




Hi Lanny !!! I have new cables 00 ... it's all clean and tight. Solenoid is good, checked with multimeter. All ground points have been re-cleaned and tightened.

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by kurt v

I would get a 850 cca battery, no paint on starter face and no paint on bell housing for good ground.

All surfaces are clean and dry. I'll see if I can find a battery around here. My current battery is new, 575 CCA ...... I've been looking for videos about load testing a 6 volt battery. All I can find are 12 volt videos.

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by Flathead Fever

This is what you need to do. You need to do a "voltage drop test" This is done while you are trying to crank the starter. I tell people to do this on their electrical problems and they "never" come back saying they tried it. This how an automotive electrical shop or good mechanic finds these problems. It's fast and easy.

The electricity is "exactly like water in a pipe. Voltage is the pressure and amperage is the amount of flow. If you had a blockage in your water system, you would have high pressure (voltage) above the blockage and zero or low pressure after the blockage. We can check for that blockage with a voltmeter. If you put the meters leads on both sides of the blockage while cranking the voltage will look for a way around the blockage through the meter. A zero volt reading would mean there is no blockage a voltage reading more than .2 of a volt means there is a blockage. You start at the battery, put one probe on the center battery post and one on the cable and try to crank the engine. If you saw 4 volts you would know you have a bad connection at the battery post, Then you move the probes to each end of the battery cable and crank the engine. If you see 2V you have resistance in the cable. You keep doing this across every cable, connection and device until you find the resistance. Just because you have new parts doesn't mean they are good. Ever see the manufacturer forget to strip the insulation off a battery cable before they crimped on the end. I worked with a Ford dealer mechanic that had that happen on a new car and nobody could figure out why it started sometimes and other times it did not. A voltage drop test across that new cable found the problem. Watch this video and others. This is how your going to find your problem without guessing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc

Good analogy. I'll get my multimeter and start climbing around the car. LOL

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by Floyd

Define "new starter". Around these vintage cars, I am always afraid of NEW anything. Especially with so much good, NOS and usable or rebuilt genuine fords parts available. Sort out what you have before throwing money around.
Helpful hint- a worn out Ford part is almost always better than anything new.

I had my old starter tested and it was determined the armature was "fried". I got a new starter (boxed with warranty) from ThirdGen Auto, checked it before climbing under the car !! All cables are new, grounds clean and tight. I checked the solenoid and it showed good. Everything else I've changed are routine maintenance parts, plugs, points, etc.

[TJ]

Besides the ground cable from the battery, what other ground cables do you have on the car?

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by 5851a

When it does start is the charging system working? If you charge the battery up slowly overnight will it start the next try? Is it just me or does 575 CCA seem a little low for 6 volt? Just asking. Volt drop test sounds like good idea.

One of the replies here mentioned getting an 850 CCA battery. I have no idea where to find such an animal around here.

As for the battery, a full charge may or may not crank it. It's a craps shoot ... I've cleaned the dash ground etc for the start button (all ground points in engine compartment.) I'm frustrated because I have no real knowledge of electrical systems .... I'm learning as I go.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Eddie Morgan

One of the replies here mentioned getting an 850 CCA battery. I have no idea where to find such an animal around here.

.....

I believe an Optima AGM battery is 850 CCA. They are kinda spendy (around $250), but each of the last three I have used lasted over 12 years.

I got the last two from Amazon. They're kinda weird looking, but that can be remedied by a special case and top cover specifically made for this purpose.

[Flathead Fever]

[QUOTE=Eddie Morgan;2219774]

Originally Posted by Lanny

hi Eddie, just curious if you have cleaned the cable terminals on the Solenoid ?
And/Or, maybe the starter solenoid needs replacing...




Hi Lanny !!! I have new cables 00 ... it's all clean and tight. Solenoid is good, checked with multimeter. All ground points have been re-cleaned and tightened.

If checked with a multimeter means you checked the resistance of the cables with an ohm meter that won't work on a starter system. The meter uses a very tiny amount of current to test for resistance. That's fine if you are measuring a ballast resister but on a large battery cable with resistance it's going to show zero ohms of resistance because the large cables will easily flow the small amount of current from the meter, but that same resistance will cutdown the flow of 300 amps. The only way to check a starting circuit is with a voltage drop test. You have probably heard of ohms law. Voltage divided by resistance equals amperage. Voltage divided by amperage equals resistance and amperage multiplied by resistance equals voltage. Example; six-volts divided by the 300 amps of a cranking starter equals .02 ohms resistance. Put just 2 ohms of resistance in that cable, six-volts divided by 2 ohms give you just 3 amps available to operate the starter. You cannot check for resistance with an ohm meter on high amperage circuits. It must be done with a voltmeter while the circuit is in operation.

The other test we have not mentioned is how many amps the starter is drawing. If the engine or starter is hard to turn the amperage will go way up. If it's not cranking and the amperage is high the engine is tight, or the starter has a physical resistance. If it will not crank and the amperage is low it's from low voltage or the electrical parts of the starter or faulty.

[Flathead Fever]

Positive ground system.

1. Place your meter leads on the center posts of the battery (not the cable ends) and record the reading.

2. Same thing but with the engine cranking.

3. Place the leads between the positive post of the battery (not the cable) and the starter case and crank the engine. You should see very little voltage.

4. Place the leads on the negative battery post and the starter cable terminal on the starter and crank the engine. You should see very little voltage.

5. Place the leads on the starter terminal and starter case and crank the engine. Since this is the majority of the resistance in the circuit you should see a voltage almost equal to the battery voltage.


Do these tests when the engine is cranking and then again when it is not. Keep the battery charged to so you get accurate voltage readings because it will lose voltage if you perform too many cranking tests. Never crank a starter for more than 15-seconds, they can get so hot it melts the solder connections inside. 15-seconds of cranking "always" followed by a 15-second of cooling off period.

[Newc]

A warm cable tell you the problem also. Almost like the Chev common problem- bad starters. check your remote solinoid. Newc

[Fritz]

You can find an Optima 6v Red Top battery at your local Advance Auto Parts/Carquest, and probably also at Oreillys or Interstate Battery. You may have to order it through the store, but I know at least Advance carries them.

My experience with modern regular 6 volt batteries is that they stink. Maybe they were always that way, I don’t know.

[BlueSpark]

I have an Optima 6V on my flathead 8. Finally I have a battery that fits in the original location AND I have never seen the engine turn over so well. I got it at a good used battery shop for half price of new.

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by TJ

Besides the ground cable from the battery, what other ground cables do you have on the car?

I have a ground cable from block to frame and one from back of block to firewall .... all are clean, dry and tight.

[Eddie Morgan]

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Originally Posted by kurt v

I would get a 850 cca battery, no paint on starter face and no paint on bell housing for good ground.

I finally found such a beast .... 675 CCA and 830 CA. I pick it up tomorrow, then we'll see what happens.

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by Fritz

You can find an Optima 6v Red Top battery at your local Advance Auto Parts/Carquest, and probably also at Oreillys or Interstate Battery. You may have to order it through the store, but I know at least Advance carries them.

My experience with modern regular 6 volt batteries is that they stink. Maybe they were always that way, I don’t know.

Howdy neighbor !!! **waving** I'm down south of you in Columbia "Muletown"

[tubman]

I gave up on "exotic" starters and conventional "rebuilts" years ago. I bought a bunch of bushings and brushes on closeout from Rock Auto a while back. My neighbor works on golf carts and has a "growler" that I use to make sure the armatures are good.

In my opinion, a properly rebuilt original starter is your best bet. Also, USA made original type starter drives are the best. The "new design" are a bitch to install.

[cadillac512]

Eddie- you asked what other grounds there should be. If your battery ground cable is attached to the firewall or body, there should also be a ground cable from that attachment point to the engine...typically an intake manifold bolt. Very important.


Terry

[drgoetz]

I have read all of the posts on this 6 volt starting problem. I make my own cables from #2 welding cable with used or new ends. I solder these connections.... be that as it may.
Did you check the resister? Sometimes, I have found that to be the root cause OR resistance in the solenoid circuit wires from oxidation.


Gawd, I love these chats ... makes me think !!

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Eddie- you asked what other grounds there should be. If your battery ground cable is attached to the firewall or body, there should also be a ground cable from that attachment point to the engine...typically an intake manifold bolt. Very important.


Terry

As of now, my battery POS cable goes to the block. I have a ground cable from block to frame on driver's side and from the back of the block to the firewall.

[Eddie Morgan]

Originally Posted by drgoetz

I have read all of the posts on this 6 volt starting problem. I make my own cables from #2 welding cable with used or new ends. I solder these connections.... be that as it may.
Did you check the resister? Sometimes, I have found that to be the root cause OR resistance in the solenoid circuit wires from oxidation.


Gawd, I love these chats ... makes me think !!

My cables are 00 cable, new .... the coil I installed requires no resistor .... I've check my solenoid with a multimeter and get good readings. The only place I can't (won't) get is under the car to test starter with multimeter. I have to work on it in the driveway, so I ain't gonna squeeze under it and crank it !!! LOL

[Rich-CO]

Ed——-Try a new starter button.
Rich

[deuce_roadster]

If it were my car doing that, I would check and make sure ALL grounds were clean and tight. Worn contacts in the solenoid can do that too. Back in the 1980s I chased my tail for a week when I had a similar problem. New battery, cables, starter etc. Finally a neighbor, old machinist came over and took the caps off the new battery and had me try to start the car. In about 10 seconds, he said "There is your problem" and had me watch as he turned the key. One cell immediately started bubbling profusely. Shorted cell. One of my first lessons of "New does not necessarily equal Good"
Keep at it, you will find the problem and hopefully let us know what it was.
Good luck.

[jeepguy1948]

I would agree completely that just because it’s new doesn’t mean much these days and I suspect that your battery is no good (I have no idea how they do it but Optima battery’s seem to have a little higher voltage and they crank like hell). You can also disconnect the cable to the starter and try a 12 volt battery for the starter only to see how that cranks it. There have been some really good suggestions here and i think that the voltage drop test is an important one to do ( I still think your battery is the problem though)

[jeepguy1948]

I have one of those cases that make the optima look like an original Ford battery, works great.

[patrickdee]

Last year I found a 6 volt battery with 700 CCA at tractor supply co for around $100 bucks. At about the same time I was having a similar starting problem. Turns out that the recently rebuilt starter was junk. Slow to turn over. I was able to find a replacement rebuilt at Napa. Starting issue resolved. Keep at it.

[Fritz]

Hey new neighbor, when we moved we actually looked at a couple houses in Columbia, “the New Franklin.”

But back to the battery, I agree 575 CCA is way too little for a flathead v8. At the very least, try that 700 CCA battery from tractor supply. I really recommend the Optima though.

[Fritz]

And if you think the starter is the problem, call Third Gen back. He doesn’t like selling junk.