Antifreeze or water in the oil

[tbirdtbird]

Anyone remember this topic?

I had a chance to discuss this with an old time mechanic who I haven't seen in years. This guy is pretty sharp. His answer makes sense to me. I do not know more than what I am about to post, so I doubt I'll be back to make any more comments. I am sure the Barners will chew this up and spit it out!

You may never actually see a layer of water and a layer of oil on the dipstick; you would have to have a lot of water in there for that to happen. BUT if there were that much water, then what is on the dipstick will not look like oil at all. It will look milky. If you see milky, then no how matter how much or how little water got in there, it became an emulsion with the oil and rendered the lubricating qualities of the oil useless, and your bearings are or will soon be toast.

It matters not if you are running AF or plain water, either will form an emulsion with your oil as the oil pump whips everything up like making whipped cream. A car of any vintage is subject to this issue. It could happen to anyone with any car at anytime.

The bottom line for me is to check the stick each and every time you are about to start the car. Checking head bolt torque now and then may not be a bad idea, either. I have worked on a lot of As for customers only to find the torque is 20# low across the board. I discovered the same thing on an old Stude truck.

Modern high quality head gaskets for modern cars from Felpro are made such that a re-torque is not necessary, such as the SBC 350 I am changing the heads on now. So, whether you need a re-torque depends on the type and quality of the gasket itself. Wipe a little never-seize on those stud threads and you will still be able to turn those head nuts years later if need be.

I have no idea if this will help anyone. Each person on the barn is doing what has worked for them over the years. It makes sense to me, and looking back I have seen milky oil, knew what caused it, but was too young to understand how detrimental this can be. And I wasn't the one in charge of fixing that particular car. Also remember the harder and faster you drive the car the more likely you are to blow the head gasket, even tho the compression on an A is 4.2.

I will be checking the stick just before I drive it every time from now on

[txturbo]

All true.....the water goes to the bottom. I've checked dipsticks before and seen clean oil. But you loosen the drain plug and water comes out.

[Purdy Swoft]

If you check the oil before starting the engine and the oil is above the full mark, this will be an indication that you have a head gasket leak or a cracked block or head that leaked down overnight. I've had this happen. As the engine cools the leak area will open more. usually the oil will be way high on the dipstick and have a gallon or more water or antifreeze in the bottom of the oil pan. If the oil is high on the dip stick, don't crank the engine or damage will occur.

Because of the small number of head studs, the model A engines are prone to head gasket failure. Being as antifreeze is thinner than water it is more prone to enter the crankcase if it gets the slightest opportunity. Antifreeze is good for modern cars with more head bolts and a pressurized cooling system. As for antifreeze protecting the water jacket from rust, I have found that when trying to drain the cooling system on modern cars with antifreeze, the drain petcock usually breaks off. I will only use water and water pump lubricant in my model A.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Chief said it was fairly common practice to drill & tap the drain plug & install a 1/8" NPT petcock for a "quick" test for water in the oil. Many "do it yourselfers" were poor & DIDN'T even surface the heads! They'd say, "Thet's why Henry made them headgaskets this l------l THICK"! Some would even use 2 gaskets & LAYERS of whatever kind of gasket gasket goop they had back then.
Luke Baker traded Chief 3 pigs to get his head leaks fixed RIGHT! Bill W.

[George Miller]

You might not need to re torque, but why not re torque it is free and you might save a head gasket.

[tbirdtbird]

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"If you check the oil before starting the engine and the oil is above the full mark, this will be an indication that you have a head gasket leak or a cracked block or head that leaked down overnight. I've had this happen. As the engine cools the leak area will open more. usually the oil will be way high on the dipstick and have a gallon or more water or antifreeze in the bottom of the oil pan. If the oil is high on the dip stick, don't crank the engine or damage will occur.

Because of the small number of head studs, the model A engines are prone to head gasket failure."

Purdy, I agree with this totally, and you have completed the thought process with this post.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by George Miller

You might not need to re torque, but why not re torque it is free and you might save a head gasket.

Hey George,
Amen to that ! And, besides FREE, you just might find out (upon retorque) that 'something wasn't right' with initial install (torque wrench off/distracted operator..on/on). On A/B engines, as stated, the lack of more head studs , magnifies any 'mistake/error' !

BTW: As regards the subject of head gasket useage on A/B engines, sure would be helpful to have data/results of real life testing of various available head gaskets (felpro / best/ steel/copper/composite, etc).

[slackcat]

Originally Posted by txturbo

All true.....the water goes to the bottom. I've checked dipsticks before and seen clean oil. But you loosen the drain plug and water comes out.

Yep.

[BlueSunoco]

[QUOTE=tbirdtbird;759621]Anyone remember this topic?


You may never actually see a layer of water and a layer of oil on the dipstick; you would have to have a lot of water in there for that to happen. BUT if there were that much water, then what is on the dipstick will not look like oil at all. It will look milky. If you see milky, then no how matter how much or how little water got in there, it became an emulsion with the oil and rendered the lubricating qualities of the oil useless, and your bearings are or will soon be toast.

Saw that on a Pontiac Catalina back in the early 70's. Car came in for a new timing gear (they were famous for stripping out the nylon gears) when they tore down the motor OMG----- what a whipped cream frothy mess just what you were describing turned out there were no coolant leaks the old guy that drove the car never got it out of town and motor hot enough to burn off the condensation. Valve covers were packed with white goo about the consistency of Goop hand cleaner.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

[QUOTE=BlueSunoco;759817]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Anyone remember this topic?


You may never actually see a layer of water and a layer of oil on the dipstick; you would have to have a lot of water in there for that to happen. BUT if there were that much water, then what is on the dipstick will not look like oil at all. It will look milky. If you see milky, then no how matter how much or how little water got in there, it became an emulsion with the oil and rendered the lubricating qualities of the oil useless, and your bearings are or will soon be toast.

Saw that on a Pontiac Catalina back in the early 70's. Car came in for a new timing gear (they were famous for stripping out the nylon gears) when they tore down the motor OMG----- what a whipped cream frothy mess just what you were describing turned out there were no coolant leaks the old guy that drove the car never got it out of town and motor hot enough to burn off the condensation. Valve covers were packed with white goo about the consistency of Goop hand cleaner.

A gal drove her Austin Healy only a short drive to work & a short drive to her repair shop. Car would miss funny-like! After replacing FRIED plugs, TWICE, discovered there wasn't enough water in it to make steam or smell & not enough water to make the temp gage work, even. Problem was a PINHOLE in a hidden heater hose. It didn't even cause any apparent engine damage. Bill W.