Logan

[tbirdtbird]

I have extensive experience with motors and those bearings, while not horrible, are not good for only 1500 miles. I have a '47 Stude M5 with 64K miles that I pulled the caps on to do a bearing check and they looked brand new.
Miles can vouch for that.
The pistons and cyl walls are trashed. Period. No matter what anyone thinks about the bearings.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I don't know why the other engine update thread was closed, but I was wondering if there is a better picture of the crankshaft and weights, as I thought the weight by the flywheel looked a bit odd?

I can think of at least 4 reasons for the pistons to be scored, but would like to know which one fits this engine.

[tbirdtbird]

Tom, why not share your experience of those 4 reasons with all of us; any one of us might learn something

[Joe K]

The original participants on this thread (including me) have been having a little side discussion via p.m. since the closure.

We're not really sure and not to reveal incorrectly but we thought that it might have been due to er, "legal" ramifications that might occur between the two parties.

Libel and Defamation can occur - and it can affect one's business standing - and it might be cause enough on a public forum to cause one or the other party to see legal redress.

This our thought for the closing. Not sure who that was.

Anyway, it was an INTERESTING failure. Most profound.

Joe K

[tbirdtbird]

Legal mumbo-jumbo cannot override what those pix reveal. They speak for themselves. The legal phrase here is Res ipsa loquitur

no further words are needed. He can publish the pics in the NY Times if he wants.

so you legal boys can go back to sleep, no overpriced fees goin' on here

it also looks like the thread is re-opened

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Tom, why not share your experience of those 4 reasons with all of us; any one of us might learn something

I didn't want to lead the witness.

I worked on my friend's engine a couple years ago and his pistons looked just like these after driving 4 miles with the engine pinging due to too much spark advance.

Overheating can cause galling
An engine built with too little piston clearance
Lack of lubrication

That's the 4 that come to mind.

[tbirdtbird]

wonder if the scuppers faced the correct direction....

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I didn't want to lead the witness.

I worked on my friend's engine a couple years ago and his pistons looked just like these after driving 4 miles with the engine pinging due to too much spark advance.

Overheating can cause galling
An engine built with too little piston clearance
Lack of lubrication

That's the 4 that come to mind.

I can tell you two of those can be ruled out in this case. The engine was running 170* when this happened, and I had just changed the oil before we left, and checked it when we stopped. It was still full. I would put money on the clearance not being enough because this happened with the same piston last time.

[Joe K]

What use for oil?

Joe K

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Joe K

What use for oil?

Joe K

valvoline

[Joe K]

What weight?

Joe K

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I don't know why the other engine update thread was closed, but I was wondering if there is a better picture of the crankshaft and weights, as I thought the weight by the flywheel looked a bit odd?

I can think of at least 4 reasons for the pistons to be scored, but would like to know which one fits this engine.

I believe Logan closed the thread because he got his toes stepped on and didn't get the sympathy he looked for. After this thread opened he had second thoughts and re-opened the other one. The admins would not do this, when a thread is closed by Ryan or Cobb, it stays CLOSED. All I know is if you can't stand the heat, don't go in the kitchen.

I can tell what happened to his motor but prefer to keep that to myself because I don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone. I just know the clearances were correct in that engine and I mean pistons and wrist pins.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

wonder if the scuppers faced the correct direction....

What is a "scupper"?

/

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

What is a "scupper"?

/

Perhaps he means the dipper extensions to the rod caps that promote oil flow into the rod bearing - and throw it better around inside the crank case?

These would not be of large importance to a pressurized engine - but I'm not sure of complete pressurization on this one.

There is an even better name for these but my receding from consciousness mind can't pull it up right now.

Joe K

[Logan]

[QUOTE=James Rogers;676087]I believe Logan closed the thread because he got his toes stepped on and didn't get the sympathy he looked for. After this thread opened he had second thoughts and re-opened the other one. The admins would not do this, when a thread is closed by Ryan or Cobb, it stays CLOSED. All I know is if you can't stand the heat, don't go in the kitchen.

I can tell what happened to his motor but prefer to keep that to myself because I don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone. I just know the clearances were correct in that engine and I mean pistons and wrist pins.[/]

Well you're wrong, because I didn't close or re-open any thread. I didn't even know that was possible for someone other than the admin To do so. I'm not looking for sympathy, I just don't want anyone else to get screwed by this jerk.

Someone else asked what oil. It was valvoline 10w-30. I can't think of which sub-brand of valvoline though. It was in a white a blue bottle I know that.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm not looking for sympathy, I just don't want anyone else to get screwed by this jerk.

Logan, please understand that I am NOT siding with Taylor, --nor am I necessarily siding with you in this simply because I do not know all the facts. I DO however sympathize 110% with you simply because no one likes someone such as yourself to endure unnecessary turmoil or stress in their life.


With that said, the thing that DOES bother me in this entire situation or series of threads is that I feel you are sincerely trying to retaliate against this vendor by offering this information in a public format as a method to possibly bring harm to Taylor or his reputation. Why this is bothersome is I see it as an unfair fight since Taylor does not participate here. Also, it is very easy to overlook a key detail that would give an accurate clue as to what really happened and caused a failure. The ONLY people that truly know what happened in this entire situation is Logan Douglass and James Taylor, ....period.


Now I realize you are feeling betrayed in your dealings with Taylor however You, -nor any of us know whether this type incident or service has ever happened to anyone else before, ...nor do any of us know for a fact this will happen again. By you openly stating "you don't want anyone else to be screwed by this jerk" I feel you are stating an incriminating opinion as most of us would prudently agree that none of us know for certain if this situation will ever happen again. These type threads take on a demeanor where readers quickly form very biased opinions based on what they read that often times are not accurate or factual based. This is grossly unfair for the parties involved, ...AND is grossly unfair for the hobby as a whole. Intelligent Men can make intelligent decisions when they know all the facts!


The 2nd parts of why I feel this is wrong is if you really wanted to substantiate your complaints against Mr. Taylor or his engines, in all fairness to yourself, Mr. Taylor, all of us as readers, and any potential client of Mr. Taylor, you should have arranged for this engine to be disassembled & inspected by a 3rd party who is/was unbiased and validated as an expert witness (someone who is a professional engine builder familiar with Model-A engines), ...and then invited Mr. Taylor to be there to oversee that 3rd party's findings. That way the facts could have been known by everyone without the possibility of accusations of the evidence being tainted. As it is right now, there is still He said/She said opinions being passed around which I do not see as productive.


.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Logan, please understand that I am NOT siding with Taylor, --nor am I necessarily siding with you in this simply because I do not know all the facts. I DO however sympathize 110% with you simply because no one likes someone such as yourself to endure unnecessary turmoil or stress in their life.


With that said, the thing that DOES bother me in this entire situation or series of threads is that I feel you are sincerely trying to retaliate against this vendor by offering this information in a public format as a method to possibly bring harm to Taylor or his reputation. Why this is bothersome is I see it as an unfair fight since Taylor does not participate here. Also, it is very easy to overlook a key detail that would give an accurate clue as to what really happened and caused a failure. The ONLY people that truly know what happened in this entire situation is Logan Douglass and James Taylor, ....period.


Now I realize you are feeling betrayed in your dealings with Taylor however You, -nor any of us know whether this type incident or service has ever happened to anyone else before, ...nor do any of us know for a fact this will happen again. By you openly stating "you don't want anyone else to be screwed by this jerk" I feel you are stating an incriminating opinion as most of us would prudently agree that none of us know for certain if this situation will ever happen again. These type threads take on a demeanor where readers quickly form very biased opinions based on what they read that often times are not accurate or factual based. This is grossly unfair for the parties involved, ...AND is grossly unfair for the hobby as a whole. Intelligent Men can make intelligent decisions when they know all the facts!


The 2nd parts of why I feel this is wrong is if you really wanted to substantiate your complaints against Mr. Taylor or his engines, in all fairness to yourself, Mr. Taylor, all of us as readers, and any potential client of Mr. Taylor, you should have arranged for this engine to be disassembled & inspected by a 3rd party who is/was unbiased and validated as an expert witness (someone who is a professional engine builder familiar with Model-A engines), ...and then invited Mr. Taylor to be there to oversee that 3rd party's findings. That way the facts could have been known by everyone without the possibility of accusations of the evidence being tainted. As it is right now, there is still He said/She said opinions being passed around which I do not see as productive.


.

Brent,
Do you really think it matters who takes apart the engine? Besides, even if Taylor was invited to look at the evidence, I can tell you right now he wouldn't come. He's just not that kind of person. If he's not getting $$ than he's not interested in helping out. As for the "he said she said" that's all this will ever be; because there was no camcorder during the encounters a year ago. There would be no benefit to making up a story like this; much less it would be hard to make up a horror story like this. Nothing is going to ever happen perfectly, or in ways that everyone can be proven right. At some point, you just have to trust people in what they say.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jordan

Brent,
Do you really think it matters who takes apart the engine? Besides, even if Taylor was invited to look at the evidence, I can tell you right now he wouldn't come. He's just not that kind of person. If he's not getting $$ than he's not interested in helping out. As for the "he said she said" that's all this will ever be; because there was no camcorder during the encounters a year ago. There would be no benefit to making up a story like this; much less it would be hard to make up a horror story like this. Nothing is going to ever happen perfectly, or in ways that everyone can be proven right. At some point, you just have to trust people in what they say.

You make valid points. Here are some back...

* If Taylor does not show for the meeting, then he does not have any leg to stand on and must accept whatever decision is made. If he failed to show for a meeting such as this without just reasoning, this just lends credibility to Logan's testimony.

* The He said/She said is just opinions unless someone experienced is there to corroborate what was found. Making libelous statements based on He said/She said comments is NOT a good thing, ...both ethically and legally.

* I think many could suggest possible motives for someone making up stories or skewing the facts. I am NOT suggesting that anyone has done this but the potential in the way this is being handled publicly on this forum could easily be construed as such in my view.


So I revert back to my original question. Why the apparent need to vent or retaliate publicly against Taylor-Made engines? The business relationship or dealings between Logan & Taylor really has nothing to do with any of us, ...therefore none of us should have needed to read this publicly or be involved in any manner since none of us were there to witness what actually transpired. A point that was made to me in a PM was How do we even know there was ever any warranty given on this engine? After thinking about that for a moment, we don't. Can Logan produce a copy of the original invoice or a written copy of the warranty for that particular engine?

Maybe this was a special circumstance deal, -or there was a reason why there was not one. Not all engine builders give warranties. Most race engine builders do not offer any type of warranty on an engine that has been uniquely modified. Again, we do not know the business transaction between these two.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

You make valid points. Here are some back...



So I revert back to my original question. Why the apparent need to vent or retaliate publicly against Taylor-Made engines? The business relationship or dealings between Logan & Taylor really has nothing to do with any of us, ...therefore none of us should have needed to read this publicly or be involved in any manner since none of us were there to witness what actually transpired. A point that was made to me in a PM was How do we even know there was ever any warranty given on this engine? After thinking about that for a moment, we don't. Can Logan produce a copy of the original invoice or a written copy of the warranty for that particular engine?

Maybe this was a special circumstance deal, -or there was a reason why there was not one. Not all engine builders give warranties. Most race engine builders do not offer any type of warranty on an engine that has been uniquely modified. Again, we do not know the business transaction between these two.

If you don't want to read it than move along Brent. Nobody is forcing you to read every thread and them write a long post with your rebuttal to everything that is commented. I enjoy reading your posts, but sometimes you just go in a big circle. People have posted here time and time again when they have a problem with a vendor, or a certain part from a manufacturer. This is the same type of situation, just a lot more expensive. Move on if you don't like reading it.

[ctlikon0712]

What is a "scupper"?

Though not used correctly in this instance here is basically what a scupper can be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scupper
We used and made what we called scuppers out of tape and sheet plastic at the space center when we did drilling or debris type operations in a white or clean room area to catch or divert FOD away from an sensitive area.

[MikeK]

On a piston a scupper is a drain relief for the oil control ring assembly. It may be a series of holes through the land into the interior of the piston. In the case of slipper design pistons with flattened, reduced sides adjacent to the pin bosses, the scupper (drains for the oil ring) are sometimes directed into this area rather than the piston interior. I doubt that is what the OP of "scupper" was referring to, but that's what a scupper on a piston is.

As far as having a qualified third party disassemble it, yes, it does matter. I've already heard plenty of gobbledygook speculating here, especially about the discoloring of the rod small ends, which is NORMAL when installing chevy style pins. I'd be concerned if the pins were installed without heating the rod small ends. You heat the ends to ~ 600-700F so the cold pins can be tapped in without excessive force.

If you dry-ice the pins they just drop through the piston and the hot con-rod with no hammering. Some driving with a proper tool that does not touch the piston pin bore is normal. Was there inspection of the ends of the pins for evidence of excessive assembly force on the tight one?

What measurements were taken during disassembly? Were the pistons measured for diameter and requisite eccentricity? Were the bores measured for concentricity and taper? Have all the ring end-gaps been measured? There may have been nothing wrong at all with that part of the build. Factors under operator control may have caused the piston expansion and seizing.

On the positive side, looking at the pictures it does not appear the lock-up froze the rings in their lands, and it also appears the rings kept the aluminum buildup confined to the area below the ring travel. When that happens there is usually no real damage to the cylinder walls, they clean up easily for new pistons and rings. When the rings lock up is when you get wall damage.

I built plenty of SBC (gasp!) track motors in the 70's and a build that ran fine all season could lock pistons like yours in one lap with an intake leak (lean cyl), a carb jet or an ignition timing change. OOPs!

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Jordan

If you don't want to read it than move along Brent. Nobody is forcing you to read every thread and them write a long post with your rebuttal to everything that is commented. I enjoy reading your posts, but sometimes you just go in a big circle. People have posted here time and time again when they have a problem with a vendor, or a certain part from a manufacturer. This is the same type of situation, just a lot more expensive. Move on if you don't like reading it.

Anybody ever tell you that you are an arrogant little ass? If not here it is.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by Jordan

If you don't want to read it than move along Brent. Nobody is forcing you to read every thread and them write a long post with your rebuttal to everything that is commented. I enjoy reading your posts, but sometimes you just go in a big circle. People have posted here time and time again when they have a problem with a vendor, or a certain part from a manufacturer. This is the same type of situation, just a lot more expensive. Move on if you don't like reading it.

Logan, Jordan, if you guys manage to torque off Brent Terry, and run him off like Bill and Buster T did to Marco so that he doesn't post anymore, heaven help us all

If that happens I'll have to delete Fordbarn from my Favorites list and quit reading it, as there won't be much here worthwhile to read anymore...........

Stop,,,,,, please.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I'm OK guys. It will be OK for all concerned when enough time has passed.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by jeff/illinois

logan, jordan, if you guys manage to torque off brent terry, and run him off like bill and buster t did to marco so that he doesn't post anymore, heaven help us all

if that happens i'll have to delete fordbarn from my favorites list and quit reading it, as there won't be much here worthwhile to read anymore...........

stop,,,,,, please.

lets get one thing straight>> bill did not run off marco>>>
i think you should delete this like you did your other 900 posts you used to have

[jkcrosson]

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I suspect this thread will soon be closed by Ryan.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Hay Roy, how many times have I heard you and THE NOSE wining about name calling.

Does this mean the rules have changed, "OH BOY"!!!!!!!

I have always wanted to use the word Bozo!!!!!! So here go's.


What you two Bozo's done was flap your lips, to wear Logan had to defend him self from posts that were a waste of the space they were writen on.

You two are always riding each other's wagon any way.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

Logan, Jordan, if you guys manage to torque off Brent Terry, and run him off like Bill and Buster T did to Marco so that he doesn't post anymore, heaven help us all

If that happens I'll have to delete Fordbarn from my Favorites list and quit reading it, as there won't be much here worthwhile to read anymore...........

Stop,,,,,, please.

if you would delete fordbarn from your computer you wont see me crying. as a matter of fact i might throw a party

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Anybody ever tell you that you are an arrogant little ass? If not here it is.

And I would say you are more immature than my 5 year old for saying that... Your "contribution" that you just made to this thread does nothing positive at all. Time to grow up some and act like an adult... That's the problem with the internet...people spout off and say things they wouldn't have the guts to say to someones face in real life. Everyone is an adult here, we need to be acting like it. How many times are we going to let Ryan get upset and have to yell? None of it is necessary.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

if you would delete fordbarn from your computer you wont see me crying. as a matter of fact i might throw a party

Check your PM we'll take this up there not here.

[Mitch//pa]

whats wrong jeff are you done pm'ing i am just getting started

[Ryan]

Jesus god... Some of you fellas need to find another website... Cuz you won't be on this one much longer.

I don't host name calling, drama, crap... Take it elsewhere!