new kid, first purchase T

[charliechaindrive]

Hello all, my name's Charlie. I'm 16, and I just bought myself a 1924ish T frame. I got it for 80$, and since I don't have a title for it I would like to build it into a speedster, or cycle car.

URL=http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/charliericker/media/20140104_162636.jpg.html][/URL]








I'm kind of looking for some advice on building this. I'm looking at a '25 Chevy bucket, and I have just been told about a '28 ford whippet front clip. (Cowl, hood and radiator with shell) I need to either get new spokes and iron rims for my demountable's, or I'd like to convert to model A wires. I've heard that the tires for wire A rims are expensive though. Would rebuilding all four of my hickory's be cheaper than finding 4 good A rims and tires? I have access to my dad's full machine and fab shop, but my budget is quite low.

I also found a steering box out of an old mustang, Would this work in the T?




Thanks for reading, and this T is technically my first car.

Ccd.

[trulyvintage]

Welcome Charlie,


Keep posting ....




Jim

[super flat]

WELCOME Charlie---- keep looking for parts, you can find them reasonable if you are not in a great big hurry! Gary

[charliechaindrive]

Thanks for the welcome! I have also found a pair of '39 ford axles (front and rear) with hydraulic brakes for 100$. Is this a good deal? Will or would they fit on the T chassis? I've heard that the spring placement is different on the 39 rear axle and that it might lower the stance of the frame. Which, Would be a happy side effect. Or would I be okay if I used the T's original drum emergency brakes as my main stopping power? Well, that depends on if I've got lined e-brakes or the steel on steel variety I guess.

[15max]

Those little drums on the wood wheels won't do much stopping. They were mainly a park brake. The main stopping on a T was in the transmission and it is not all that good for today's traffic.

[Steve Jelf]

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Welcome to the affliction Charlie. This will tell you which parts to get first.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

Before you buy a lot of stuff I'd suggest you get familiar with what's stock on a T so you have some idea what you're replacing if you adapt some other kind of part.

I can't answer all your questions, but I can help on a couple of them. The Whippet was made by Willys, not Ford. Making the Whippet stuff fit on your frame would take some adapting. I haven't priced tires for Model A, but I'd be surprised if they cost a lot more than Model T tires. Wire wheels are another story. Model A wires are much more plentiful and much cheaper than Model T wheels, BUT there again, making them fit would take some adaptation. Model T steering and Mustang steering are totally different. So no, I don't think the Mustang steering box will do you any good.

I try to go original as much as possible, so I can give some advice on the stock stuff, but somebody else with different experience will have to advise you about which odd parts might be usable. I suspect that in the long run you'd be money ahead and save a lot of grief and hassle if you stuck with Ford Model T parts, which are much more plentiful than parts for other makes and models of the period.

[dumb person]

The body pieces sound like they will work, even the whippet parts as people used to modify those to fit a model T back in the speedster era. The mustang steering box will work if you use the '30s axles but those mount a little differently, personally i would use the T axles for a lightweight speedster & if you need a lower steering ratio a ford 10 steering box looks light enough, it might work but you could have a hard time finding one.
As for the wheels i think model A tires (which for vintage tires are not that pricey compared to other sizes) would fit those rims, they might need some repairs judging by the photographs. i have entertained the idea of using plowing disks as steel wheels to replace the wood spokes, that might work for you.
If you do use the original axles you can add a band brake that goes around the outside of the brake drum as well as using the internal brake shoes. Pick your choice of whether the parking brake is the one on the outside or inside of the drum & the pedal goes on the other. The linkage is simple enough you could swap them over of you change your mind.

[CharlieB]

Here's my take and it ain't pretty. What you have Charlie is bare bones. Just re-building what's there is probably in the $1000.00 area. Without the tires & tubes. The first thing you need to do is make up your mind about what you want it to be and any stuff you collect should be related to that idea. Picking up the type of items you have is relatively cheap. Maybe the guy just wants to get rid of it. Whatever. It's the repairs/refurbishing that costs. I'm not trying to disillusion you. It's like building a house and the framing goes up and you say I'm almost there. You're not. Especially if your vision of a complete car is foggy. Start with what you've got, ask questions and make up your mind.

[mike peterson]

Im with Charlie B, with whats there, u don't have enough money to have anything when your done, at least start with a complete running chassie, $1500 should find u one, put a wooden seat on it and go cruzing.

[Steve Jelf]

I disagree about those wheels needing repair. They need rebuilding or replacing. First, the rims are rusted through. If you're staying with wood wheels, replace those rims with good ones. Second, it looks like those spokes are rotten. They have to go. You can build a spoke press and replace them yourself for about $80 a wheel. Or you can have a professional wheel shop rebuild them for about $150 each. Whatever you do, ignore all the suggestions about trying to fix those rusted through rims and rotten spokes. Your life depends on it. You can skimp on stuff that's not dangerous. The other choice is wire wheels. For those, tires don't matter. T and A tires cost about the same. Model A wire wheels will cost a lot less than Model T wire wheels unless you get a very lucky deal on some T wheels. But Model A wheels will need some kind of adapter to make them fit on Model T hubs. I don't know how hard that is or what it costs. If you go with wire wheels you'll also need the wire wheel hubs to put them on.

A good study reference is a Mac's catalogue. It has great pictures of many of the parts. For actually buying parts, get the catalogues from Lang's, Chaffin's, Birdhaven, Bob's, and Snyder's.

[charliechaindrive]

Originally Posted by Steve Jelf

I disagree about those wheels needing repair. They need rebuilding or replacing. First, the rims are rusted through. If you're staying with wood wheels, replace those rims with good ones. Second, it looks like those spokes are rotten. They have to go. You can build a spoke press and replace them yourself for about $80 a wheel. Or you can have a professional wheel shop rebuild them for about $150 each. Whatever you do, ignore all the suggestions about trying to fix those rusted through rims and rotten spokes. Your life depends on it. You can skimp on stuff that's not dangerous. The other choice is wire wheels. For those, tires don't matter. T and A tires cost about the same. Model A wire wheels will cost a lot less than Model T wire wheels unless you get a very lucky deal on some T wheels. But Model A wheels will need some kind of adapter to make them fit on Model T hubs. I don't know how hard that is or what it costs. If you go with wire wheels you'll also need the wire wheel hubs to put them on.
A good study reference is a Mac's catalogue. It has great pictures of many of the parts. For actually buying parts, get the catalogues from Lang's, Chaffin's, Birdhaven, Bob's, and Snyder's.

Thanks for the advice guys, I know my original wheels are pretty much shot now, unless I were to put quite a bit of money into them.
I have access to my dad's full machine shop, he has a mill, lathe, and pretty much any other machine a person could need. Model a wheels will probably be the way I'm going with this, and depending on the rim size, won't some motorcycle tires fit onto the A rims? They're rated for highway use. And my dad works at a motorcycle shop so I probably could score some used tires that still have plenty of usability left. I've done some research on A to T hub adapters, and they seem to be a round section of 1" steel, drilled out in the center with holes tapped on th back side to fit onto the T hub, and they then have the A bolt pattern drilled into the front face and that is tapped for the appropriate size wheel stud. They are bolted solid to the T flange, and then bolts go trough the A wheel into the plate and are secured with lock tite and lock washers. Either that, I've seen some people Chuck the T hub into their mill and just bore the A bolt pattern right into the hub flange, and spacer the rim out from the flange, and just run bolts all the way through. I could see where this would-be a tempting corner to cut, but to me that seems fairly unsafe. Or am I just poking it with a stick for nothing? I realize I have little to build off of with this, and I think that's a good thing. A blank canvas.

Ccd

[Steve Jelf]

From your description of the wheel adapters they sound pretty stout and wouldn't be difficult to make. They have the added advantage of not requiring you to alter permanently any original parts.

[Greg Jones]

Where are you located? I have a Model T short block (block, crank, pistons, valves are assembled) that I would give you. It would probably run with a head (they are a dime a dozen) and an oil pan, of course with coils, timer, and that stuff. Yes it would probably run but should no doubt be rebuilt. I wont ever use it and helping out a young guy would be great. How else we gonna get the next generation interested?

[charliechaindrive]

Originally Posted by Greg Jones

Where are you located? I have a Model T short block (block, crank, pistons, valves are assembled) that I would give you. It would probably run with a head (they are a dime a dozen) and an oil pan, of course with coils, timer, and that stuff. Yes it would probably run but should no doubt be rebuilt. I wont ever use it and helping out a young guy would be great. How else we gonna get the next generation interested?

I'm in almost the middle of minnesota unfortunatly. but a free motor is a hard thing to pass up! I'll send you a PM here in a few hours. And the hub adapters are very simple,, I'd have a section of thick walled tubing that'd be welded in the center of the adapter that would fit into the center hole of the A rim to add some support for there.

[NYfatboy]

Hi, just for fun check out the HAMB; have fun and good luck!

[dumb person]

Wheel adapter plan sounds good so far but the heavy tube wall, Does it go right near the edge for a model A wheel? From memory wheel fits closely to the brake drum.

Originally Posted by Steve Jelf

I disagree about those wheels needing repair. They need rebuilding or replacing.

What is the difference? i never said shimming the spokes with chewing gum, nobody does that in real life.

Forgot to add, motorcycle tires would not likely have sidewalls strong enough for a car. Cars do not lean over on corners like motorcycles do so the sidewalls might suffer.

[Jim Huseby]

Hi Charlie- You've got a really fun idea and I would encourage you to pursue the speedster idea. However it would be wize to heed the advice you've gotten about costs and time necessary to accomplish your dream. A speedster doesn't have any definite definition as long as it's an era-correct creation, so there are unlimited levels of looks, personalities and performance you can do. My preference is something that is a recreation of a '20's racer. You will save GOBS of time and money and get gobs of satisfaction by investing in "The Model T in Speed and Sport", "Model T Speed Secrets","The Fast Ford Handbook", Leslie Henry's "Model T Restoration", etc. Also find Mr. Model "T" who has posted hundreds of photos of his fetching '27 roadster gow job build on fordbarn or H.A.M.B. You will be able to find lots of speedster builders to help you in your pursuits, if they don't find you first. I have built "T" speedsters and they're more fun to look at and drive than can be described. I don't think my "T"s are on my website, but it may still give you some more ideas: olympic-speedsters.com

[charliechaindrive]

Originally Posted by Jim Huseby

Hi Charlie- You've got a really fun idea and I would encourage you to pursue the speedster idea. However it would be wize to heed the advice you've gotten about costs and time necessary to accomplish your dream. A speedster doesn't have any definite definition as long as it's an era-correct creation, so there are unlimited levels of looks, personalities and performance you can do. My preference is something that is a recreation of a '20's racer. You will save GOBS of time and money and get gobs of satisfaction by investing in "The Model T in Speed and Sport", "Model T Speed Secrets","The Fast Ford Handbook", Leslie Henry's "Model T Restoration", etc. Also find Mr. Model "T" who has posted hundreds of photos of his fetching '27 roadster gow job build on fordbarn or H.A.M.B. You will be able to find lots of speedster builders to help you in your pursuits, if they don't find you first. I have built "T" speedsters and they're more fun to look at and drive than can be described. I don't think my "T"s are on my website, but it may still give you some more ideas: olympic-speedsters.com

I'll search up those books here later today, thanks!

[karasmer]

Welcome, keep an eye on Craigslist and this summer go to the swap meets, tell the vendors your story and next thing you know you will have more parts than you know what to do with which can be used for reselling/ trading for the ones you need. With a model T parts are super easy and for the most part cheap to come by. The problem is that your interests will usually expand into other cars and before long you have a collection going. If you start hoarding though keep them protected, I have seen my fair share of useless collector car junkyards melting into the earth. I am up in Duluth but when on a road trip in your area I could swing by to help out, just let me know.

[Tom RSA]

Great to know that there are young people interested. You have more parts than I had when I started with my 1918 Runabout. I only had a chassis. I have been busy with it for 4 years and hope to complete it in the next 3 months.
I purchased my first old car when I was 13 years old and I still have it. Purchased my first Model T when I was 30 in running condition. I have managed to find a further 31 cars of various makes since and have about 14 running at the moment and another 6 to complete soon. All my cars are under cover and I work on about 6 projects at a time. I only purchase new tires after the car is completed and has done a test run. I use old tire casings to get the car mobile for a back yard test drive. I also repair the engine last. It helps with the cash flow! The computer age has made restorations much easier and Google is my best friend for information, parts, detail etc. I do a lot of research before I start with a project. I laminate all drawings, photos and information for use in the workshop.
Good luck with your project and please post progress reports.

[15max]

I agree, Tom. We need more young folks who can see the potential in these old parts. You will get lots of advise here. Mine is If you don't build it the way you like, you are doing it the wrong way. Have fun with it and you may be doing it for 50 years like I have.
Good luck Charlie.

[charliechaindrive]

Originally Posted by 15max

I agree, Tom. We need more young folks who can see the potential in these old parts. You will get lots of advise here. Mine is If you don't build it the way you like, you are doing it the wrong way. Have fun with it and you may be doing it for 50 years like I have.
Good luck Charlie.

That's going to be my new signature if it's okay with you, max. I'm the only kid in my whole school who gives a crap about old cars, an example is the one kid who swears the general Lee charger in the original dukes of hazard, runs a 454 Chevrolet. And he gets really mad if you tell him otherwise.

But, since it's the weekend, I'm planning on doing some simple, easy to do frame lowering mods. I found them on the HAMB, I believe that Mr.modelT used them on his "gowjob" 26 T roadster. He drew up these plans, and I'm going to follow them.


Seems simple enough, although the front spring perch somewhat confuses me. Can anyone decipher it and explain it any better? The rear lowering technique seems simple as breaking down the axle and switching the housings around. I'll do the front flip first, and I'll try to do the rear mod in the heated shop at school. Speaking of school, today in my shop hour I got my mustang steering box opened up and I've begun some creative staring at how I'm going to De-seize the, and please forgive my ignorance here, the roughly butter stick sized slider thing that goes on the spiraled section of the input shaft. I think if I wrap the slider piece in rags, clamp it in the vise and put a crescent wrench across the little tabs on the funky vibration dampened kind of thing that fits onto the splines of the input, and just soak it in kroil and wrench on it. Would that work okay? Or is it to cobbed to work safely? The gears and bearings look okay inside the box too, I think I remember someone saying the mustang box wouldn't work for the T? Why exactly?

Ccd

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by charliechaindrive

I think I remember someone saying the mustang box wouldn't work for the T? Why exactly?

Ccd

MrModelTs rear suspension worked ok, i think he added a longer threaded rod in that spring link so it had another tube (like the spring perches) mounted on the radius rod in his final version, if you want to get fancy, but that one you showed will work, and worked for 10 years with no trouble.

i am not that familiar with the mustang steering box so i could be wrong but, while i can figure you can mount it to work, it might need a solid column to the steering wheel rather than one with uni' joints & either the pitman arm or the drag link would have to be hand made. If you have the skills, go for it!

This should be a picture of a mustang 'box fitted but it might not be as easy as it looks.
Good luck.

[charliechaindrive]

I'm going to get my hands on a new pitman arm, and I understand nothing is ever as easy as it seems. I found a spare steering column out of our 37 ford truck that I can use, so I might be able to use that. The vanadium steel of the frame is notoriously hard to drill, so would u-bolting the box as much as possible be okay, with a at least the 3 mount holes drilled through the frame rail and bolted? Also, I found a few things today. One is what I believe to be a juice brake front axle, it is either ford, or Essex. unfortunately has become a trailer axle (but I can always desperate it from the axle) and the other is some kind of gearbox.





Here's the gearbox

Gearboxes aren't really my forté, so if I get the numbers and such OFF the tag on the housing, can someone tell me what speeds this has? Or how to check if it's okay to work, without splitting the case. Cause if it's good, I have a big snowmobile two stroke I could set up with it.

Ccd

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by charliechaindrive

I found a spare steering column out of our 37 ford truck that I can use, so I might be able to use that. The vanadium steel of the frame is notoriously hard to drill, so would u-bolting the box as much as possible be okay, with a at least the 3 mount holes drilled through the frame rail and bolted?

While i cannot help with the gear box (looks like a 4WD unit?) i have drilled holes in my frame for moving the battery box, drilled easily with a sharp drill bit, you should be fine. Have seen a 37 ford steering box used too (or so i was told) looks like they removed the outer tube?.

Oh and the trailer axle you showed looks kind of like a model A one from what i can see.

[jboggess]

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Oh gees, I just used a cutting torch on my river bed frame what looked like your frame this past summer. That's how I felt about that project.

[toms32]

I am jalso ust about to start my first 27 T project. I have never had a T and I probably could not even drive the thing at this poiint. Hopefully I will get a lot of guidance from ths site. Good Luck on your project. Tom

[charliechaindrive]

Originally Posted by toms32

I am jalso ust about to start my first 27 T project. I have never had a T and I probably could not even drive the thing at this poiint. Hopefully I will get a lot of guidance from ths site. Good Luck on your project. Tom

Hey Tom! Congrats on your 27, I wish I had a body shell for mine. Good news! My dad told me we have a bunch of ancient model A or T parts out in the old grainery, only problem is that the building is mostly collapsed. I'll go out and take a cautioned look at the contents here soon, my dad said there was "some sort of enclosed drive shaft" sitting just inside the door. Let's hope it'll be for a T.

Ccd

[powerwagonmaniac1]

Charlie,

MrmodelT (Clayton) and I have built our two cars on a very limited budget with leftover parts. Clayton's roadster started out as a parts car we had inthe back corner of our shop my car "the Becker Special" started as a spare frame and firewal and we built a plywood body and fiber glass fenders for it .

Here is links to our build threads on the HAMB forum:

Clayton's build of Joesephine his 1926 T roadster check out the later postsas we comletly rebuilt the car to correct suspension and drivetrain problems that plagued his car on the intial build ( by the way drove his roadster from Portland Oregon to Wendover Utah for Bonneville Speed Week round trip 1732 miles under it own power)....

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...light=mrmodelt

Here is the link to our car The Becker Special. Read the background story for the special, shewas intended to be my dads car but he never saw it done... We built her a real tight budget with spare parts and lots of ingenuity. Tried drive it with Clayton to Speed Week but broke crankshaft. Now we just finished a year long rebuild of her and had the first drive in it this last weekend.....

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...light=mrmodelt

Get Murray Fahnstock's book Model T's in Speed and Sport that will get you started and check out some of the other Gow Jobs build threads on the HAMB as there is quite bit old tech stuff being unearthed by the traditional hot rod movement. Also check out the Northwest Vintage Speedster boys as they are keeping speedsters in the limelight....

NWVS.org

Here is a T coupe build that Clayton and I have been watching. They were inspired by our cars and took cues from them built there Gow Job. Looking forward to seeing it finished....

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ght=xrw+urabus

Hope this helps a little.

Chris

[40 Deluxe]

Charlie, that "gearbox" you posted a picture of looks like a New Process 203 full-time four wheel drive transfer case from about '73 through '79 full size pickups. It's a two speed unit; direct drive high range and about a 1.98 to 1 low range. The aluminum rear housing contains a differential that connects the front and rear driveshafts (picture the driveshafts as being the left and right axles in a rear end and the input shaft as being the same as the rear end pinion gear and you have an idea how it works). It prevented the 'crowhopping' present in a normal transfer case when turning on a hard surface. Interestingly, with this transfer case, you could jack up wheel and the truck would not move, just spin that one wheel.

[charliechaindrive]

Originally Posted by powerwagonmaniac1

Charlie,

MrmodelT (Clayton) and I have built our two cars on a very limited budget with leftover parts. Clayton's roadster started out as a parts car we had inthe back corner of our shop my car "the Becker Special" started as a spare frame and firewal and we built a plywood body and fiber glass fenders for it .

Here is links to our build threads on the HAMB forum:

Clayton's build of Joesephine his 1926 T roadster check out the later postsas we comletly rebuilt the car to correct suspension and drivetrain problems that plagued his car on the intial build ( by the way drove his roadster from Portland Oregon to Wendover Utah for Bonneville Speed Week round trip 1732 miles under it own power)....

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...light=mrmodelt

Here is the link to our car The Becker Special. Read the background story for the special, shewas intended to be my dads car but he never saw it done... We built her a real tight budget with spare parts and lots of ingenuity. Tried drive it with Clayton to Speed Week but broke crankshaft. Now we just finished a year long rebuild of her and had the first drive in it this last weekend.....

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...light=mrmodelt

Get Murray Fahnstock's book Model T's in Speed and Sport that will get you started and check out some of the other Gow Jobs build threads on the HAMB as there is quite bit old tech stuff being unearthed by the traditional hot rod movement. Also check out the Northwest Vintage Speedster boys as they are keeping speedsters in the limelight....

NWVS.org

Here is a T coupe build that Clayton and I have been watching. They were inspired by our cars and took cues from them built there Gow Job. Looking forward to seeing it finished....

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ght=xrw+urabus

Hope this helps a little.

Chris

hey thanks chris! I'll check out those links in a few minuets.