New member 1930 sedan in Australia

[Jim1930]

Hello everyone,

I've been browsing the wealth of information at the fordbarn for a few months now, I thought it was about time I posted my own restoration project. My name's Jim, and despite being 24 and a classified a "Generation Y" I've always had a soft spot for history and the wonderful things from out past, be it cars, architecture, fashion etc. I purchased this Model A (as rough and ready as she is) from my uncle, who had intended to restore it but other projects got in the way (for about 20 years )

From what I understand it is a 1930 fordor Sedan, I'm not sure if it is a Town Sedan. It has a rear arm rest in the centre of the seat, has single point garnish on the door windows (those that are still there) but not on the small rear side windows, holes for the cowl lamps (but the cowl is full of filler so may be modified), rear window and side window shades, but the rear light is NOT over the seat, it is further forward. The upholstery is grey check.

The more research I do, the more I wonder if little things may have changed depending on month/year/location/country of manufacture, I'm not sure if there are any peculiarities unique to Australian A's on top of those unique to Canadian A's, I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone can educate me.

The engine is Canadian CA148894* (mid 1929?)
It has a 7 tooth steering box, so I presume the original 2 tooth was swapped out at some stage?

I'll be posting more photos when I can, my father and I have begun restoration of the chassis and engine already, so the pictures are slightly out of date. As I said if anyone has any information or tips it would be great.

Thanks,

Jim

First pic is my uncle's shed - boxed in by Ford Mainlines and Falcons, the rest after we got her home.

[Tudortomnz]

Jim
This is an interesting sedan, being from Australia.I understand these 1930 sedans were partly made at Geelong [ ie. body panels] along with the open models. The 28 '29 sedans & Spt cpe were imported . I would be interested to know if you can find any body number tags on the seat bases or on the floor area at the front. Some of the Australian model A bodywork had Aust. made tags.Your Sedan is a 'Town Sedan', a deluxe type with cowl lamps & deluxe interior. The chassis & engine etc is Canadian, also 'guards, bonnet, 'shell, lamps etc. I understand this model was sold into 1932 as the Ímproved' Model A, but it is a 1930 based model.All these 3W Fordor Sedans were of Murray design, not Briggs. .BTW, the 7 tooth 'box was used into early '30, even in US. It looks correct to your car.Total Australian TS production of this 1930 type was 455, according to Dave Slaters article , Restorer, July/August 2010. Contacting a Victorian Model A club would be the best course in restoring your car.

[dave in australia]

If you join the Model A Ford Club of Victoria, you will access to a wealth of knowlege from club members.
What area of Vic. are you from?

[juke joint johnny]

Looks a nice solid car !! Good Luck with it

Welcme to the Barn

John Cochran

[Aerocraft]

Welcome to Fordbarn! Please consider joining the Town Sedan club. Here is an earlier posting I made:

The "Town Sedan Club" is up and running again thanks to Don Gambill, 3830 N. Kootenai Court, Casa Grande, AZ 85122. His email is [email protected] . Membership is a mere twelve dollars per year. Much of the technical information that is published is applicable to all Model A's. The latest newsletter is 17 pages of pictures stories and includes an article on how to rebuild a pop-out! Subsequent newsletters will be sent via email. I recommend the club to all Model A enthusiasts!

Gar Williams

[Terry, NJ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Welcome to the barn! So, Australian T.S.es had the inside light over head? The American versions had the oval light above the rear window. Be very careful of that light lens and bezel. No one is reproducing them and the oval ones are hard ($$$) to replace. Also, I don't know about the RHD exhaust manifolds. I've never seen them advertised. I did run across one used one once here in the states, but never new ones. Best of luck with it!
Terry

[Terry, NJ]

Also, I don't know if this holds true in Australia, but from doors and windows (Arched tops) but here in the states, that would mean the body was manufactured by Murray.
Briggs was the other manufacturer and may be identified by a straight window top. This affects the replacement of window glass, window frames, and wood kits.
Terry

[Marco Tahtaras]

Welcome Jim,

It looks like you got a fun project. It definitely appears unmolested and began life as a Town Sedan. The dome lamp type and location is that of a Standard Fordor as you noted so that is a curiosity for sure!

Does the grey check match photo of original found here on Fordbarn? That is also unique as all Canadian references I've seen indicate Mohair although not necessarily the same as USA production. I hope you'll preserve what remains for the foreseeable future for reference.

Originally Posted by Tudortomnz

Jim
This is an interesting sedan, being from Australia.I understand these 1930 sedans were partly made at Geelong [ ie. body panels] along with the open models. The 28 '29 sedans & Spt cpe were imported . I would be interested to know if you can find any body number tags on the seat bases or on the floor area at the front.

The body was definitely built by Murray as nobody else was equipped to build them. As noted, all Fordor and Town Sedan bodies sold in or distributed from Canada were built by Murray (no Briggs bodies). Although there were some unique features to the Canadian versions it appears that all these were ordered by and funneled through Ford Motor Company in Dearborn. I don't know why the Canadian export records don't show Town Sedan bodies going to Australia. A fair number went to New Zealand.

[hugeal]

Hi,
your 30 sedan looks as it it is a murray made town sedan.
I have a 30 t.s made by murray. Here is the things to look for:

The inside light is located just above the rear window
this light and the base is a hard to find part, so be careful with it.

The doors on the murray have curved window tops, the briggs are flat. Not much is interchangeable between the two.

The door handles and window cranks arn,t the same as other sedans

depending when it was made, the windshield wiper could be either elect. Of vacuum. If it is an early murray, there shouldf,nt be an outlet for a vacuum wiper in your intake man..

Early 30,s have an ovil speedometer with a trip meter. The dash was oval to accept the oval speedometer, thus the gas tanks arn,t the same as the later speedometers that are round without the trip meter.

A little tip: Make sure your car is at a complete stop before setting your trip meter back to zero.

The center of the back seat has a fold-down arm rest.

The emergancy brake handle should have a butler finish. The hand grip area should be regular chrome finish
the butler finish has a sand blast finish, not a high shine chrome finish

all inside comes with a factory wood grain finish

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Welcome Jim,

It looks like you got a fun project. It definitely appears unmolested and began life as a Town Sedan. The dome lamp type and location is that of a Standard Fordor as you noted so that is a curiosity for sure!

Does the grey check match photo of original found here on Fordbarn? That is also unique as all Canadian references I've seen indicate Mohair although not necessarily the same as USA production. I hope you'll preserve what remains for the foreseeable future for reference.



The body was definitely built by Murray as nobody else was equipped to build them. As noted, all Fordor and Town Sedan bodies sold in or distributed from Canada were built by Murray (no Briggs bodies). Although there were some unique features to the Canadian versions it appears that all these were ordered by and funneled through Ford Motor Company in Dearborn. I don't know why the Canadian export records don't show Town Sedan bodies going to Australia. A fair number went to New Zealand.

Marco, the 1930-32 fordor sedans marketed in Australia appear to have been assembled & partly made there. They also made up Sport coupes with a fordor[ Murray] door. They also made some fabric bodied fordors & Tudors.Geelong had all the tooling to do body building, installed during 1929 for Model A production.The fact that they do not show on Canadian export sheets to Australia probably means they were made up there. Other odd imported models appear on the export sheets to Australia, plus all the chassis they imported to build up tourers, roadsters, utilities etc, some of which are not the same as US models.
The fordors & Town sedans sent to New Zealand arrived complete from Canada &. only required minor assembly.These have unique body numbers eg. 3F & 5F & may be via Detroit to Canada?
The article to read is by Dave Slater [Vic.]] on Australian Model A's [ Restorer, 2010] also History of Ford Australia by Norm Darwin. The piece about Ford in NZ in this book is nowhere near correct, just guesswork.

[Bick in New Zealand]

I quote from Ian Irwin's excellent book 'The Model A Ford The First 50 Years 1928-1978'
"With the introduction of the 1930 Model A Fords, the Tudor Sedan disappeared from the Australian market, and was replaced by Fordor and Town Sedans.The journal, The Australian Fordoner for August 1930, interviewed Mr H.C Lecestre, who formerly had twenty years experience in the designing of composite bodies, including five years with the Fisher Body Company at Detroit, was sent to Australia by Ford Canada to supervise the manufacture of the closed cars. For the first time, the Geelong plant was manufacturing all body panels for the closed cars as well as the open models. "We use the Australian steel for some of the body parts. British steel for the panels, keeping the product as British - Australian as possible" said Mr. Lecestre. "The high quality of Australian timbers is advantageous to local production", he states and "..much stronger than those (timbers) available to foreign body makers." Mr. Lecestre stated that given scientific direction, aided by the use of the world's best equipment, and given good materials to work on, the Australian employees' product was equal to the world's best.
The Australian Fordoner praised the rich new qualities of the the town Sedan, which now compared favourably with far more costly cars. The Town Sedan was distinguised from the Fordor by the inclusion of special upholstery, arm rests on either side of the rear seat , and a folding centre arm rest in the rear seat, a robe rail on the rear of the front seat, dome light, and the exterior cowl lights."

[Jim1930]

Thank you everyone for the welcome, we're in North East Victoria, just north of Wangaratta. I'll certainly consider looking at the state club and or any local organisations, as well as the Town Sedan Club. I had a closer look at the rear light today, and it is the round standard sedan type, not oval. I would have suggested that this could be evidence for a conversion from sedan to town sedan by an owner sometime in the last 80 years, but if I understand you Tudortomnz, the "Improved Ford" would possibly be neither a standard sedan or town sedan in the official Ford America sense, but effectively a factory amalgamation of the two created by the Ford arm in Australia in order to sell remaining Model A sedans into the mid 1930s? (As a side note one of my neighbours remembers his family owning a "Improved Ford" purchased in 32 if I remember correctly)
I have yet to find any indication of body stampings or plaques on the seat frames or body/chassis, but I have not looked at the seats in great detail yet.

Looks can be deceiving, there is a considerable bit of rust in around the base of the rear panels and in the cowl, and the top of the cowl posts, some localised wood rot, but overall I think (and hope) its pretty sound. Mechanically, I'm fortunate enough to have recieved a couple of spare engines and front and rear axles/diffs with the car, not in good condition, but the parts have been very useful.

Marco, I believe the grey check does match, but I'll need check the rear seat/ take a close up photo, parts of it have not been exposed to dirt/elements and have retained the grey colour....unfortunately the majority of the seat has lost its upholstery somewhere through decades of use/decay.

I'll attempt to post some more photos, and some of where we're up to in the restoration.

(photos are a bit unorganised, I'll try to sort them out in future.)

Jim

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Tudortomnz

The article to read is by Dave Slater [Vic.]] on Australian Model A's [ Restorer, 2010] also History of Ford Australia by Norm Darwin. The piece about Ford in NZ in this book is nowhere near correct, just guesswork.

Dave Slater's article states that the Fordor bodies were imported. With that said, I've been going over the few body photos from Jim and it is becoming increasingly intriguing. While the body carries most of the design characteristics of the Murray body it DOES NOT appear to be the same. While the door windows do appear to have a subtle arch it seems much less than the Murray doors. Additionally the tops of the doors at the jam appear to have essentially no arch giving it a roof line similar to the Briggs bodies.

I'm intimately familiar with the construction, design, and even the subtle characteristics of both Murray and Briggs bodies so I'll be able to outline much more as Jim offers more detailed photos of the body and doors. I would expect there to be more survivors of Fordor bodies in Australia so I'm surprised this hasn't been documented. Maybe nobody has been interested? It's worth noting that the records show ONE Town Sedan imported in 1929 so that would have provided a body to pattern from.

I'm curious what the aluminum door sill plates look like and if they have any markings on them.

[Rusty Homestead Fl]

Welcome Jim. Yours looks like my 31 TS when I first got it. You have made a good start in your project. Did you have much frame sag to contend with or is/was it straight? Now is the time to correct any sag conditions before you attempt body alignment later. It'll sure make things easier with a straight frame. Just throwing that out there in case you havn't checked it. Best of luck to you on this adventure. Have patience!!!

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Dave Slater's article states that the Fordor bodies were imported. With that said, I've been going over the few body photos from Jim and it is becoming increasingly intriguing. While the body carries most of the design characteristics of the Murray body it DOES NOT appear to be the same. While the door windows do appear to have a subtle arch it seems much less than the Murray doors. Additionally the tops of the doors at the jam appear to have essentially no arch giving it a roof line similar to the Briggs bodies.

I'm intimately familiar with the construction, design, and even the subtle characteristics of both Murray and Briggs bodies so I'll be able to outline much more as Jim offers more detailed photos of the body and doors. I would expect there to be more survivors of Fordor bodies in Australia so I'm surprised this hasn't been documented. Maybe nobody has been interested? It's worth noting that the records show ONE Town Sedan imported in 1929 so that would have provided a body to pattern from.

I'm curious what the aluminum door sill plates look like and if they have any markings on them.

Great work on the car Jim. By looking at remains of the upholstery, if original as it looks, is more like the standard fordors here except has the buttoning. All of the Town sedans Ive seen here in NZ had the mohair with buttons & pleats, also dome light [oval] over the rear seat area, not central.The interior window frames do not look the same as Nth American Murray body; interesting.
I notice it has the bottom half of the Canadian 2 piece gear lever ball, which is the same as the AA gear ball. I have seen this on original Canadian 1930 cars here & my late '29 Tudor has one also. Bick in NZ & myself have just been discussing this topic & Im glad to see another one, or remains of!

Marco, I know most American Model A'ers would find it hard to believe Sedan body building outside Nth america but it is well documented by Ford Australia. The Australian govt. only allowed Ford to establish a large plant at Geelong in 1925 if it were to be a manufacturing plant, not just assembly.The long term plan was to start a large Ford exporting facility which did come to pass.
The imported Sedans to which you refer to noting in Dave Slaters article are the '1928 '29 Tudors & Briggs Fordors [ leather back] imported until the start of 1930 Sedan fordor production in Australia.Most Model A's built in Australia were open types, not closed models. On the Çanadian export sheets, you will see all the 'passenger chassis' imported in 1930.

[hugeal]

Hi,
here is the rest of my message on i.d ing town sedans
another thing is the 29 and 30 shades. Both originals have a diamond weve, but the 29,s and the so,s arnt tha same. Also the shades on the 29 have a sewn edge where as the 30,s have a selvaged edge. The assist strape arnt the same from 29,s and 30,s. I hope this helps some.


Al

[1930artdeco]

Is it possible that they 'improved' the car at the dealership to sell it? Maybe making a standard fordor into a hybrid just to sell it?

Mike

[Terry, NJ]

Marco, from what I'm seening of the wood around the rear window, It looks identical to my Briggs. Of course Jim is new to this and some of his pics come tantalizingly close, but leave out a critical detail.
Terry

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Dave Slater's article states that the Fordor bodies were imported. With that said, I've been going over the few body photos from Jim and it is becoming increasingly intriguing. While the body carries most of the design characteristics of the Murray body it DOES NOT appear to be the same. While the door windows do appear to have a subtle arch it seems much less than the Murray doors. Additionally the tops of the doors at the jam appear to have essentially no arch giving it a roof line similar to the Briggs bodies.

I'm intimately familiar with the construction, design, and even the subtle characteristics of both Murray and Briggs bodies so I'll be able to outline much more as Jim offers more detailed photos of the body and doors. I would expect there to be more survivors of Fordor bodies in Australia so I'm surprised this hasn't been documented. Maybe nobody has been interested? It's worth noting that the records show ONE Town Sedan imported in 1929 so that would have provided a body to pattern from.

I'm curious what the aluminum door sill plates look like and if they have any markings on them.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Marco, from what I'm seeing of the wood around the rear window, It looks identical to my Briggs. Of course Jim is new to this and some of his pics come tantalizingly close, but leave out a critical detail.
Terry

It's pretty clear that I was not direct enough in my previous post as it appears it was misunderstood by all.

First, Murray and Briggs bodies are very similar from the standpoint of the wood. However the overall design characteristics are CONSIDERABLY different in many areas. Second, what you are seeing around the window in the pic above is the interior trim panels which cover the wood. Note the upper corners of the quarter window moulding. Both Murray and Briggs Mouldings have rounded rear top corners. Now note the rear window moulding. the Briggs bodies used the standard Ford moulding which was a "quarter round" configuration with the screws inserted diagonally. Murray bodies used a special rear moulding with a cross-section design the same as the upper three sides of the upper three sides of the quarter window mouldnings. Look at the rear moulding above on Jim's Australian Town Sedan. It is made like the Murray rear moulding except it has square corners whereas Murray rear window mouldings were rounded on all four corners.

Ok, back to what I was said indirectly in my previous post. after seeing more photos and studying them all VERY closely I was essentially concurring with Tom that this was indeed built by Ford of Australia and NOT a Murray body from Canada. And to repeat for clarity, Briggs Fordor bodies (with the exception of the 60-A leather back) were never used in or exported from Canada.

Again as noted previously, ONE Town Sedan was imported to Australia from Canada in 1929. From what has been discussed here it is my belief that it was imported for the sole purpose to copy (albeit loosely) and engineer Australia's own version to be manufactured locally.

There are many interesting features in Jim's car. As would be expected the floor side sills are designed like the Murray bodies which have a vertical door sill and the lower belt moulding as part of the doors. The door windows are slightly arched across the top whereas Briggs doors are straight and Murray doors have a greater arch. The roof line over the doors however is fairly flat like our Briggs bodies.

The bottom line is that from what I can see in those few pics that Jim posted, there are few if any body parts which would interchange with Model A Fordor bodies built anywhere else in the world.

[Tudortomnz]

The Australian Model A's are very interesting. Those with Geelong produced bodywork would have many features different to Nth American Fords. They did a great range of open cars & their 'Sports' models were unique ; coloured fenders; Phaetons with 'double seat cushions'; slightly longer rear bodywork etc. I believe the Geelong bodies carried a small badge 'Coachwork, Ford Geelong', with an Australian map outline & Union Jack emblem. This was attached to lower cowl;in their advertising
Ford is mentioned a being 'A British Empire Product'.
Marco, I think you are correct about the '29 fordor used as a 'template' by Geelong, not just for their 1930 fordors but also the 'fabric' sedans., which closely resemble the Murray type fordor except for the cowl . I believe there are only a couple of fabric sedan survivors in Australia. The extensive use of wood framing in Australian Model A bodies would probably not just have been for economy [low production, therefore metal stamping not cost effective] but they got assistance from an American body building expert ex Fisher ; Fisher in that era used extensive wood framing in their bodywork.
I have just been loaned two excellent [ out of print] books by Ian Irwin about Australian Model A 's & really the information [ plus some era photos & adverts] is as good as anything that has been published on Model A in USA.
Tom