why no blowers in daily drivers?

[bugsiegel]

I see some women wear their best diamonds when the leave the house but I never see a blown engine unless it's at a show.
It is price, wear, reliability, visibility, are they illegal, fuel economy, too much attention?
Do they have to be full on all the time?
Can they go the distance, will a blown engine make it across the country and back?

[HOTRODPRIMER]

Blowers are really more suited to hot rods. HRP

[PeterC]

Lots of good questions - I have a S.Co.T blown 59A Flathead in my stock bodied 35 Coupe.

For a higher performing flathead a blower aids in the bigger weakness of our beloved flatheads - breathing in an optimal fuel mixture under higher performance expectations - of course for reliability and performance - you don’t just plop a blower down on the intake side. As with any engine -all the aspects of the engine must be considered - i.e. each action has a potential reaction - so carburation, intake flow, valves, heads, ignition, exhaust and gearing must be considered for all to work well.

Cost is of course fairly steep for price of admission, and wear, economy and reliability are all a part of thoughtful full design, execution, maintenance and driver inputs.

At lower RPM the blower has minimal effect - as you get closer and closer to WOT the power climbs rapidly - so in a sense you can control economy with your right foot - and yes - they can they go the distance, and make it across the country and back many many times when consideration is given for all of the above.

There are many experts on this forum with far more knowledge and experience that I - so am sure will add much to your questions - perhaps oppisite of my thoughts - my comments are just my humble opinion as experienced running one on my little 3 Window Coupe.

[Ol' Ron]

I do think this is possible and one of the tests I'll be preforming id just that. The Eaton blower is available at a very reasonable price they were available on Buick's since 1992 until the mid 2000 on their 3.9L engines. Unfortunately there isn't an intake available for them. These blowers work on a demand principle where the engine run under atmospheric pressures until Manifold vacuum drops below a predetermined value and you get max boost. This allow the driver a stock engine performance until he needs more power. I've built such a setup for testing and will pass along the results. These are also available from Magnason, They use a different blower , but operate on the same principal. Pics to follow.

[Flathead]

I've got an A-V8 with a 6-71 GMC blower on it. I drive it on the street with no problems. I put a lot of thought into the set-up and it has turned out well. It has been together for about 20 years, and makes 12-15 lbs of boost max.

[PhoenixFear]

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I've been thinking of putting a small blower on my '53 engine once it is done. However, I want to know the engine will hold up for a long time because I plan on driving the truck often. Something like a 3-71 or 4-71 I've been thinking about, with a small amount of boost. But if it means I'll have to upgrade a ton of internal parts and beef up the engine considerably I probably won't do it.

[jake197000]

i have some blower experience and they can be reliable and long lived if done as a package. having said that ill never forgot what my dad taught me years ago,you can wear em out slow or you can wear em out fast,take your choice. rpms kill,my foot has a mind of its own.

[expavr]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I do think this is possible and one of the tests I'll be preforming id just that. The Eaton blower is available at a very reasonable price they were available on Buick's since 1992 until the mid 2000 on their 3.9L engines. Unfortunately there isn't an intake available for them. These blowers work on a demand principle where the engine run under atmospheric pressures until Manifold vacuum drops below a predetermined value and you get max boost. This allow the driver a stock engine performance until he needs more power. I've built such a setup for testing and will pass along the results. These are also available from Magnason, They use a different blower , but operate on the same principal. Pics to follow.

Old Ron. The operating principle you describe is how the supercharger is setup on my engine (photo attached) in a daily driven car. Under normal street operation the engine runs naturally aspirated on the carb's primaries. As engine vacuum decreases the valve bleeding off the supercharger's boost closes at which time the 6#'s of boost is sent to the engine. The trick is maintaining engine RPM to stay on the torque curve without getting into it and making boost. (For some reason my 73 year old brain and legs don't communicate like they used to.) As you know CR, Cam design and Boost all play a role in making a supercharged engine street friendly. Another equally important element in balancing performance and fuel economy is getting the power to the ground. In setting up my car as a driver I used an automatic transmission with O/D and 3.73 gears. In retrospect I think any supercharged engine that produces good low and mid range torque coupled to an O/D trans a better compromise might be 3.54 gears. Just food for thought when you get around to the actual build.

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by expavr

Old Ron. The operating principle you describe is how the supercharger is setup on my engine (photo attached) in a daily driven car. Under normal street operation the engine runs naturally aspirated on the carb's primaries. As engine vacuum decreases the valve bleeding off the supercharger's boost closes at which time the 6#'s of boost is sent to the engine. The trick is maintaining engine RPM to stay on the torque curve without getting into it and making boost. (For some reason my 73 year old brain and legs don't communicate like they used to.) As you know CR, Cam design and Boost all play a role in making a supercharged engine street friendly. Another equally important element in balancing performance and fuel economy is getting the power to the ground. In setting up my car as a driver I used an automatic transmission with O/D and 3.73 gears. In retrospect I think any supercharged engine that produces good low and mid range torque coupled to an O/D trans a better compromise might be 3.54 gears. Just food for thought when you get around to the actual build.

Ya need to leave those shoes with the lead lined soles at home....

[Fordors]

I like your set up expavr, you take "Dare to be different" to a new level.
PeterC gives some good tips and I will expand on what he said. I have a 6-71 on an overhead (yes, it's a Chevy) but this discussion needs all the input it can get so I will add my 2 cents.
Any short block for a blower application should have a quality piston; I'd invest in forged pistons and a modern ring package, rebuilt rods done by a competent shop and pay close attention to bottom end clearances and the oiling system. In my case I run 8.7-1 compression, but it is an overhead, I'd keep a flathead in the 6.5 to 7-1 range. I run my blower at 15% underdriven and it is a bit on the loose side, never more than 7 lbs. boost and it has two 600 Holleys on it with direct linkage, not progressive. The total timing is set at 28* and I run a fairly conservative camshaft with .445 lift and 222* duration @ .050. Reliability has never been a problem, I have not driven cross country but have gone to Oklahoma City two times from the Chicago area and done numerous other long distance road trips and never had any problems.
Build a reliable short block, maybe with the L100 cam that many here like, add the blower and start up with a reasonable amount of total timing, sneak up on the best total advance, not too much right off the bat. I would probably go with a 600 carburetor, but even with two Holleys on mine and direct linkage I have no concerns. Mileage on the road has been 17.5 mpg with 3.36 gears and a 31" tall tire. The engine will run like a stocker at idle and in normal driving; only when you give it some serious throttle will it get enough air to build boost and at that point hang on! Read all you can, plan out a good combination, and build for the street- leave the hard core race stuff and gearing out of the picture and you will see that performance, reliability and mileage can be had in one package.

[Ol' Ron]

Thanks for the input, yes we need more people to address this kind of project. In my case the engine is stock and the boost will be in the 3-5 lb range the blower has a 2:1 overdrive, the same as the Buick.

[Ol' Ron]

These pictures were taken along tim ago at my other shop. I'll up date them when I install it on the present engine.

[sturgis39]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

These pictures were taken along tim ago at my other shop. I'll up date them when I install it on the present engine.

Ol Ron

What did you use for the crank shaft pulley?
I always enjoy your posts.

Thanks

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, I spotted this car on the field at the EFV8 National Meet in Hiawassee last summer. The day after I took the photos, I found myself having lunch with the owner, a really nice fella from Albuquerque. He has a restoration shop and they did the car and engine. He'd driven from ABQ to Georgia and was driving back. He said she'd do 70mph all day long and I don't doubt it. I don't recall the guy's name, but here's a couple websites for his shops. He had some good stories about the folks/fools who bring him cars to restore.

-VT/Jeff

http://www.worldwideautomotiveinc.com/
http://www.oldcargarageltd.com/

[Flathead]

And still 6 volts, I love it!

[Ol' Ron]

Used a GM pulley and bored it to fit the ford crank. Have 2:1 and 3:1 OD. Blower Max RPM is 14K. Would like 3-5 lbs boost between 2500 and 3500 RPM. Engine is stock.

[Richard]

blown flattys are cool.

[elwood]

I like blowers, and I love flatheads, so this is what Im currently working on.

[expavr]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

These pictures were taken along tim ago at my other shop. I'll up date them when I install it on the present engine.

Its hard to tell from the photos how the runners are setup on the intake manifold but with the carbs mounted to the back it seems like the front cylinders might run somewhat lean when the blower's boost is vented at cruising throttle settings. Have you noticed that happening?

[Talkwrench]

Do you guy come across the little SC14 Toyota blowers.. Cheap N easy.. You cant rebuild them as such as the bearings are set and glued in.. The blades are basic and flat but if you dont rev them the're fine.
I used one on a 192 Ci inline 6 I had [Holden 186 red motor] with a 465 Holley [modified] Damn it went hard !!
Ive still got one under the bench and Im eyeing it off for the flattie..

[Talkwrench]

Pics SC14 on a Flattie

[Ol' Ron]

The Eaton blower off the Buick has the air input in the rear. The AF is directed into a throttle bore where The AF either goes into the engine or the blower. Smething like progtrssive linkage. You only get boost when the vacuum drops to a certain level. Your question about the distrobution of fuel in the intake manifold is a good one. I'm using an old Fenton Intake and the runners are small and of the 180 deg design and should distribute the AF equal, but we won't know till we try it.
The Buick had Port injection so this is not an issue. I'm using a single 2GC.

[lowandratty]

Ron, did you use a 4bbl. intake to make the adapter for the blower ? The bottom of those Buick blowers have the big hole and a small round hole, why ?

[Ol' Ron]

The big hole is the blower output. The small hole is the by-pass system. I started to use a small 4bl but there isn't enough room behind the blower to fit one. Besides a 2GC will pass enough air for a 239 past 4k and I boubr it will ever see that.

[lowandratty]

Ron
So in theory the blower is not producing any boost at idle and all the af mix go's through the small hole, then when you open it up and drop vac. it builds boost and puts all that through the big hole.
So you could use a blow-thru 4bbl carb on the manifold and mount the blower over top of 1 of the heads and build a basic tube from the bottom of the blower to the top of the carb. with just an air filter mounted to the rear of this blower, or get as fancy as you want and even pipe in a intercooler.
This type of blower on the buick is for air only, no fuel, I was under the impression that a blower just for air has tighter fit between the rotors, and a blower with fuel going through it has a looser set up, as the fuel helps make the seal. Am I totally wrong on my thoughts ???
This is very interesting to me, I have thought about using this set up many times before but never went past thinking in my mind. I really want to know how this works out for you.
I haven't hit the lotto yet so buying a set up from H&H is out of the question for now.

[Ol' Ron]

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Magnason uses the Eaton blower in a carburetaded system, using a blower similar to this one. You can Google both Magnason and Eaton to get a feel of the blower it's self. Their Kit uses a larger blower, but operating on the same principal.
The Ford Thunderbird also used this system back in the mid 90's and I know of several modified for flatheads.

[3quarter32]

I have a blower and manifold for my 60hp, but decided not to use it. Needed make an adaptor plate, but was wanting to get the ole gal on the road.
Lee

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Another thought with the blowers. A blower will create quite a bit of additional heat and engine load.
The front main bearing should receive some attention as increased stress is applied with the blower drive.

[elwood]

like what bubba ?
more lube ?
can I run one of your distributors on my blower engine ? or would I need a mag ?

[Blownflatheaddeuce]

I love the blown 8BA in my 3W.

[Ol' Ron]

Nice picture, so what's in it? What timing? How are the carbs set up.? What kind of gas mileage does it get?

[Blownflatheaddeuce]

Sorry Ron I was on the fly when i posted the pic

Pls see the spex below :

3 5/16" + .030", non relieved 8BA block, short fill of Hard Block (mixed with iron shavings
Scat 4 1/8" crank
Scat 7" H Beam rods
Ross forged pistons
Custom Doug King steel caps, ARP SB MoPar mains studs
Studded heads and mains
Ported int and exhaust
1.6 Chevy valves
Custom Tatom blower cam, adjustables, Isky springs/shims, c/moly retainers
Edelbrock 1116 CNC, deep chambered heads
Hayden Mitchell blower intake
Modded pan with crank scraper and windage tray
Elec dist/MSD 6BTM/recurved Mallory dual point dist with and single point triggering the MSD box. No vaccum advance.
GMC 4-71, 2 x Stromberg WW carbs
Exhaust has been changed to Belond type headers with a mandrel bent 2" OD exhaust running through Smithy type glasspacks.

My distributor has around 16 deg of mech timing built into it - all in by 2K rpm. From the outset I had dialled in around 6 deg of initial timing and combined with the mech adv (no vac adv on this puppy) I had a total of around 22 deg of timing. Usually I like to run around 10-12 initial timing on a blown engine to keep em kool on the street and run the balance of timing via mech advance to suit the engine combo, weight of the car etc.

I have fitted an MSD 6BTM ( BTM = Boost Timing Master). As you guys know, controlling spark timing in a blown engine is of the utmost importance.This would enable me to lean on this engine while removing timing with a boost referenced setup that would (or should) protect the thing from lunching itself. From this MSD box, there runs a vac tube that connects to a bung I fitted to the intake plenum to provide a source of vacuum to allow the MSD to work correctly.

The way it works is as follows. The box has a plug in adjuster in that allows you to dial in either 1, 2 or 3 degress of timing reduction per pound of boost. So if you set it at a 1 degree reduction, then it would remove 1 degree of timing per pound of boost. Im my case at the 1 deg setting at 7 psi boost it will remove 7 deg of timing. If I set it at 2 deg, then it will remove a total of 14 deg of timing at full boost and so on.

It works brilliantly and I've yet to pop a head gasket or do any damage. This is with Premium pump gas.

The Stromberg WWs flow around 250 cfm each which is what I wanted and have a mechanical type power valves. They are set up with a direct linkage. I cant remember the actual jetting (id need to pull out my build folder) but from memory jetting was in the 50s with great EGTs and plugs look great. I've also run a boost referenced 600 Holley DP blower carb - works even better and less chance of leanouts up top, but IMO does'nt look as nice. It does fit under the hood though !

Fuel economy wise? Well, I run 3.9s gears (really would like to swap them out for 3.5s) and run a 5 speed trans with around 2400rpm @ 60 mph/100kph. She pretty good on the old benzene unless I stand on it all the time - at low rpm, there is very little boot and when coasting under no throttle vacuum reads around 18-20" Hg.

To be honest I don't really care about fuel economy as she's not a daily driver (easily could be though hehe)

Hoe this helps !

BFD

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by elwood

like what bubba ?
more lube ?
can I run one of your distributors on my blower engine ? or would I need a mag ?

Tighter clearance and more lube if possible.
Sure we do distributors for blown engine , not a problem...

[Ol' Ron]

Thanks Blown Flathead, that's just the kind if information we need. Bet it moves pretty good. Tks again.
Ol' Ron

[saltracer]

hey Ron, have any progress on this setup?

[Ol' Ron]

Well this project was nipped in the bud by a crack in the #5 exhaust port. This happened befor we put the blower in the engine. So we had to go to plan "B" and install the 280 Flathead with a 3 spd with OD. Other than the pistons (3 5/16 +.020) the engine is a stock Merc. Money is hard to come buy and I don't have another 8BA block or I'd go for it. I do have a 59 engine (248), but that won't bolt to the trans. Been looking for a "Hogs head" but again running out of funds. Have to get the truck on the road and stop putzing with all this stuff. This is very disapointing, had two side draft carter carbs for the blower, which would fit better under then hood.

[Graeme / New Zealand]

Saw a T shirt at a hot rod show once "injection is nice but I'd rather be blown" ( sorry had to throw that one in, I'm not really offering anything useful to this thread)

GB

[Fordestes]

Aquestion for Blown flathead deauce,
Are you running a backfire relief? If so can you post a pic?I have a couple of 471 blowers already built and two mitchell intakes, what is the length of the blower snout? I will use an L-100B cam in one and I have quite a few ignition choices, Modified GM, Mallory yl,Mallory Unilite ,vertex mag. with 10 deg. advance, modified chry. electronic dist. etc. I am considering an early327 balancer. flatattack main support mainsupport with the plate to main cap setup, the engines will be 3-5/16" x4" with Ross forged pistons,Original n.o.s Zephyr or Isky valve springs. 1.5 Milodon valves.I havent decided on heads , Iam considering either E.A.C Merc.,8-B.A ford,OFFY 425"S or offy 400"s, Fenton coated headers, my main concern is the crank drive, what are the rest of you all using for the crank drive? I need some ideas here. I want to run v-belts if possible.
Thanks,
Fordestes,

[Ol' Ron]

The amount of boost will determine the blower drive system. The more the boost the more belts. You have to consider the Compression ratio VS amt of boost. The ignition for a street blown engine is quite complicated. and detonation is the enemy.

[elwood]

Hey Ol Ron, just a thought, I was told you could use water injection to compensate for detonation.
I knew a guy that ran big boost on a bike and he ran water injection..
Fordestes, I sure would like to see a couple pictures of your Mitchell manifold..

[Fordestes]

I'll pull one off the shelf or find one on line, I picked two up a few years ago from Canada and Sweden , I was thinking about machining the side for a relief but I am always open for suggestions, they are a bolt on already for the 471, a little pricey though.
Iwas wanting to use ready made drive parts such as for a sb chev.( less machine time).
and plentiful, ellwood I see you have an austin manifold, will you post the mounting flange dimentions, I am also toying with 53 series blowers I was able to buy some good cores for aronud 10 to 40 dollars each, I think they would look at home on a 59A.
I am working on a drive snout and end plates to install bearings and better seals.
the Austin looks like what I think I need, I hope Mr. Austin is still making manifolds.
I grabbed some M-90s from the thunderbirds ,It looks like they would work good after seeing what ol Ron has set up, it may be the most cost effective way to go.

Regards,
Fordestes,

[Ol' Ron]

Water and alcohol injection has been used before wwII in race and aircraft engines, and yes It could be used in a street application. So could a shot of Nitro . I had a ride in Ed Burquest (Sp??) dRed duce coupe with a S.C.ot blower, Saw 7 lbs of boost on the gauge and the engine ran harder than any SBC I ever owned. The acceloration was fantastic. He told me that after the engine was built they had a hell of a time tuning it. Finally a guy in Mass figgered out the answer and it ran like a pussy cat, untill you wanted more. So I know it can be done

[expavr]

Originally Posted by elwood

Hey Ol Ron, just a thought, I was told you could use water injection to compensate for detonation.
I knew a guy that ran big boost on a bike and he ran water injection..
Fordestes, I sure would like to see a couple pictures of your Mitchell manifold..

Another way of controlling detonation is to run a boost referenced timing system which retards the spark advance as the boost increases. Its a less costly way of dealing with the danger of detonation. On the plus side for water injection the cooler more dense AF mass will allow you to increase the boost with an associated increase in HP. I'm looking at both options for the supercharged hemi. The best way to minimize the danger of detonation is to insure that the effective CR at operating boost pressure is designed into the engine build to start with. BDS has a chart that shows both design boost and design CR with the effective CR at design boost. Its a good starting point in designing a supercharged engine. As I've discovered the process of supercharging an engine for street use involves more than putting on some hardware and hoping for the best.

[Fordestes]

Expavar,
when this weather warms up a bit maybe this weekend , I'll get one from the warehouse and post it , that is if I can find a 5 year old to show me how, if I cant post it I will scan it to someone who can, The mitchell is a neat manifold , It does not have a place for a gen.adapter mount (not that it is necessary).
I am going to add a 1/2" T-6 plate to separate the blower from the manifold an to be able to move the blower fore and aft to fine tune the belt alignment and if the blower takes a dump it may not harm the manifold. I have a 3 groove crank pulley from a french army truck and a N.o.s war surplus wide belt 3 groove I picked up from England some years ago, I really want to run a vibration dampner as I stated earlier, I really would like to see what others are using on the crank, The 327 Chev. looks like a candidate with a little
machine work to bore out about .060 more to fit the ford and broach a 1/4" keyway in the dampner and maybe mill a keyseat in the crank to utilize the chev. keway making double keways 180 Deg. apart. I figure with the low compression heads and this corn whisky they call gasoline maybe the alcohol chill factor will aid in detonation control.
I noticed M.S.D has two types of boost timing controls I understand that the 6 BTM,is an all in one ignition box as the other unit has to use something like mabe a 6AL.
when I get ready I will do some more research into the timing controls and see what works best for me.

Fordestes,

[saltracer]

speaking of fitting another type of harmonic balancer , seems the crankshaft snout is 1.3125. Would you bore the balancer .002 over for a snug fit?

[Fordestes]

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Saltracer racer, According to my HeliOs micrometers and the readings I get from about a half dozen 49 to 53 Merc cranks the difference is as I remenber at or near .060 I considered turning the crank snout down to fit the Balancer, and the cranks I checked varied a small amount, a custom fit would be to determine the crank to be used and fit accordingly , this has always to me been the norm when mixing parts. According to my notes .060 was just an average reference point , when the actual fitting takes place I always measure twice and cut to size and hone to fit as desired.

[uncle max]

I am uncle max and I approve of this post!

Originally Posted by PeterC

Lots of good questions - I have a S.Co.T blown 59A Flathead in my stock bodied 35 Coupe.

For a higher performing flathead a blower aids in the bigger weakness of our beloved flatheads - breathing in an optimal fuel mixture under higher performance expectations - of course for reliability and performance - you don’t just plop a blower down on the intake side. As with any engine -all the aspects of the engine must be considered - i.e. each action has a potential reaction - so carburation, intake flow, valves, heads, ignition, exhaust and gearing must be considered for all to work well.

Cost is of course fairly steep for price of admission, and wear, economy and reliability are all a part of thoughtful full design, execution, maintenance and driver inputs.

At lower RPM the blower has minimal effect - as you get closer and closer to WOT the power climbs rapidly - so in a sense you can control economy with your right foot - and yes - they can they go the distance, and make it across the country and back many many times when consideration is given for all of the above.

There are many experts on this forum with far more knowledge and experience that I - so am sure will add much to your questions - perhaps oppisite of my thoughts - my comments are just my humble opinion as experienced running one on my little 3 Window Coupe.

[scooder]

Just wondering with the timing control, would as an example, using a converted chevy ignition. Say you want 10 degrees max advance when in boost, and you want say 5 degrees at idle could you not use the chevy ignition with 5 degrees max centrifugal advance. + 5 degrees idle timing. This would be your 10 degrees advance under boost conditions.
Now add a vacuum advance that gives you another 10 degrees or so for cruise condition. This vacuum advance is plumbed in below the blower. In cruise the blower manifold is in vacuum, so I'm told. This setup will allow 20 degrees total in this cruise stage.
Now, put your foot in it, blower manifold goes from vacuum to boost, this will shift the timing back to your 10 degrees for boost, as the vacuum can will also go from a vacuum signal to a boost signal
The numbers I've used here are just numbers used in example.
I know this isn't as controlled as a MSD type of retard device. But possibly a cheap way to time a blown engine ?
Just wondering out loud why this is not done. I'll never get to play with this idea, the cost is to much for me.
What say you guys?
Many thanks,
Martin.

[Fordors]

Martin, I do something similar, but not matching. I run 10° on the crank and 14° distributor for a total of 38° and I use an old, obsolete Accel vacuum advance/boost retard vacuum canister on a '57 Chevy iron distributor fired by an MSD-6 box. The Accel 730012 vacuum can gives 20° advance and 8° retard under boost, although I did adjust the length of the slot to limit vacuum advance to 15°.
A blown engine acts just as you describe, adequate throttle must be provided to see boost, if it can't get the air it cannot pack it in. My combo runs a 3.36 gear with 31" tall tires, two 600 vacuum secondary Holleys on a 15% under 6-71. Cruising at 70 MPH is 2550 RPM. Down shift to third and roll into the throttle and it's off to the races, with never a sign of detonation on pump gas. Strictly a street car built 30 years ago with the available technology at the time. An MSD 6 BTM does the same thing at more cost but also more adjustability. Many told me my system would not work but the key was the 730012.
Fordestes, I agree with your choice of a harmonic balancer but I do not see the need for even one 1/4" key especially if you will use v-belts and likely only have 5-7 pounds boost. I don't think a set-up like that will tax the strength of a single 3/16 key, but should you decide to use one or two 1/4" keys make sure the diameter of the balancer hub will accommodate them with adequate strength.

[Fordestes]

Fordors,
I agree , I thought about just broaching the chev. balancer to the flatheads 1/4"key
and leaving it at that, I somtimes get a little carried away, The engine would probably live ok without the Main bearing support plate and the scat rods.
I am a stickler for dependability, I am trying to find someone local to ex-ray the crank
or what ever they use these days for non destructive testing.
I dont like breakdowns, it is difficult to find someone to line bore these days , I have inquired around and havent found anyone here in Okla, city yet. who in okla, still line bores blocks? Do any of you fellow barners here in okla. know anyone??
Fordestes,

[PeterC]

I replied earlier in this post - just attached a more current picture of the candy

[barnnone51]

The candy is Dandy!!

[Ol' Ron]

When I think of the cost of building an engine, weather it blown or not. I don't believe in compromising. If you're going to build a mild engine, so be it. If you're going to build a blown engine, so be it. Why compromise the ignition system to something that just works? most cars spend 90% of their life in cruise and the ignition system is the most critical part of that,, requiring as much as 28-30 degrees of advance. We're stuck with old technoligy heads and combustion chambers and plug locations. This could be solved by aftermarket suppliers, but the market is too low to invest the money. MSD is probably the best bet. However the real answer is TBI/ign for the street, and should be considered as the price to pay for a well running engine in all phases of operation.

[Fourdy]

I don't drive this every day but very often.



276, C4 15.5 mpg on the highway

Fourdy

[Flathead]

+1 for the Merc Heads.

[Fordestes]

Elwood, I have an issue with my computer, If I forward the pics. of the Mitchell to you will you post them for all that are interested, also will you let me know the mounting flange for the Austin blower manifold, I am trying to determine a ready made manifold to mount a 53 series blower to a 59 engine it looks as if the manifold you have will be the right one or atleast close to what I am looking for, I have a person who says he will make one on a c.n.c but that is a lot to ask of him and will have to be done when he has spare time, that could take months.
Fordestes,

[scooder]

Fordestes, would a B&M or Roadrunner manifold not work for you? They both use those little 142-177 B&M/Weiand/Holley type blowers that are based on the 53 series ones?
Martin.

[Fordestes]

Scooder, I have looked at the many manifolds and the ones you mentioned I think are a little to low for what I am wanting, I need one a little higher from the intake surface of the block, I am taking into the consideration that the tops of the cylinder heads protrude closer to the centerline of the of the intake mounting surface and the mounting surface of the blower is about 71/2 inches wide the radiator hoses, temp senders not to mention the throttle linkage hook up may be a little too close for my liking, the Austin appears to be a little higher from the deck surface and may be a little easier to connect the throttle linkages, wiring harness , temp senders, upper hoses etc. with less inteference. Thanks anyway for your suggestion. however I need the measurements to help me decide what I want to use

Fordestes

[scooder]

Be interesting to know how wide those B&M type little blowers are, I have seen them fitted on there manifolds with the 59A type heads. I'm sure that by the time you get to the hight of the throttle linkage, the hose have already started traveling forward to the radiator, and therefore they don't interfere with the throttle linkage.
Martin.

[Fordestes]

scooder,
This is my project and as you should realize I am paying the bill , therefore I will build it to suit myself therefore I am entitled to do whatever research, design and development as I choose to achieve the results I expect, in your previouse post # 48 you stated (I will never get to play with this Idea the cost is too much) I do respect your input and I am not trying to be offensive but I am participating in the discussion with the intent to move forward and not buy a bunch of parts that will never suit my future needs, that is why I asked these particular questions, I tried to purchase the same style manifold as the one ellwood pictured from a gentleman in Canada , he advised me he no longer has it and was unable to be of assistance,I am trying to put together a more affordable blower setup and who knows it may be more affordable for you as you stated ( for you to play with). I also think aesthetics is an important thing to a lot of people as well, I have used the milled out intake methods on different engines for research and to cut costs, and it did do the job. though I was the only one that had to look at it,I myself like a lot of go and a lot of show too.
regards,
fordestes,

[scooder]

My posts 're the B&M style manifolds, were just idea's, not telling you to buy them, just idea's of similar blower style mounting. These idea's were intended to help you move forward. To maybe
Help a bit with your research. Which you're, as you stated completely entitled to do.
Martin.
Genuinely just throwing ideas about, in a hope that they be helpful.

[Fordestes]

Scooder ,
please accept my apology , I really had no intention of being sarcastic or offebsive.
All of you here mean a lot to me, I have called, googled, knocked on doors in an attempt to locate what I have pictured in my mind and on paper, I would like to know what the flange dimentions are on that particular manifold, I guess I will try and find out if Mr,Austin is still making manifolds ,if so theres no doubt he can get me fixed up
This project is not a real high priority, will someone walk me through the posting of the mitchell pictures? I have them on computer but can't get them to post.

Thanks
Fordestes

[scooder]

Fordestes, thems only words, takes more than them to offend me buddy.
That Austin manifold does look ideal for a 53 series blower.
I've sent Elwood a pm asking for the flange and height dimensions, so hopefully we'll have them soon.
All the best,
Martin.

[Fordestes]

I sent the pics. to elwood to post for me of the michell intake and my freshly built and overpriced 471 Blower.I was wondering what lenght drive snout everyone else is using on an 8 B.A. and michell manifold.

[41merc]

What's TBI/ign?

[elwood]

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sure would like to see the top of that intake ..

[saltracer]

[/IMG][/IMG]

[Bored&Stroked]

Another option is to talk to H&H, they have the Navarro blower manifold - which does include some pop-off valves (which is not a bad idea). Another manifold and complete system that I like is the one that Tom Roberts has (I believe the Magnuson system uses it). It has a much bigger plenum - which may or may not work (depending on your setup), but worth checking out.

http://www.tr-designs.com/FlatheadMain.htm

Tom is a good dude, is partners in crime with Tony Baron . . . great guys. The manifold shown up above reminds me of the original SCoT, the Navarro, etc - one has to wonder what fuel distribution is like (with that small opening and a long way to reach the outer cylinders). Anyway, checkout all the options.

B&S

Manfold Base - very different than the small opening ones from Navarro, Mitchell, etc.:

BlowerManifold3.jpg

[Fordestes]

Sorry I must have forgot to wind the film,
They are on my puter but didn't post, Thanks Saltracer for the help,
Saltracer do you think there would be enough area on the sides of the manifold to machine a pressure relief?
A racer told me a blown BB.Chev. requires only a 7/8 inch relief hole, sounds a little small but any relief valve is better than no relief valve I suppose.
fordestes

[Fordestes]

I viewed the t/r offerings, looks to be cost effective , and a lot simpler ,just plug and play, what needs to be done to the carburetors to make them blower friendly besides enrichenig the fuel air mixture? as it says Modified carburetor.

[saltracer]

Fordestes I don't own one of those intakes, just had the picture on my Facebook page Fullrace Flathead. This is my current project intake, efi with blower

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Fordestes

I viewed the t/r offerings, looks to be cost effective , and a lot simpler ,just plug and play, what needs to be done to the carburetors to make them blower friendly besides enrichenig the fuel air mixture? as it says Modified carburetor.

Typically the power valves need to be 'boost referenced' - so they understand blower boost and can still enrich correctly. Also, in many cases the overall fuel circuits and associated fuel curves are modified. For the price he's quoting on the carb, probably just boost referencing . . . as a "built carb" will cost a lot more than that!

[Diavolo]

I live in the same town as Joe Abbin, he apparently ran his coupe with a blower for a good many miles and sells kits. His book also has the recipes for what he's personally dyno tested.

My OT is a tiny little motor with a blower on it and it's a daily driver. No issues, very reliable.

For me, the main issue is cost. I can't see spending the same amount of money for internals, only to then drop 2K on the blower on top of it all. For practical reasons, bolting on one for a street engine is just a waste of money. After all the specialty parts inside, the extra cost of fuel, etc. I might as well just go with a slightly less expensive setup that will last me 100K miles without the worry and expense.

[IndianapolisRacer]

Building an 8 BA blown with 471 and a Navarrow intake,I require information on drive snout, idler, and pulleys for drive , want to run v belts .Any help appreciated.

[slowforty]

One thing about superchargers on a Flathead,You get really good at changing Head Gaskets.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by IndianapolisRacer

Building an 8 BA blown with 471 and a Navarrow intake,I require information on drive snout, idler, and pulleys for drive , want to run v belts .Any help appreciated.

The thing to note right from the start is that you'll be working with a custom setup no matter what. I'm not aware of any "off the shelf" setup that will have everything you need.

Are you talking dual "wide belts" like the early engines had, modern v-belts, how many?, or ???

Crankshaft Hub/Drive: You could probably get a crankshaft hub from somebody like H&H, though a better approach might be to take a SBC dampner and bore it to fit the flathead crank - than you can mount your v-belt drive pulley to it. You'll most likely have a custom belt pulley made for the crankshaft end of this.

Water Pump Belts and Drive: Depending on how you want your belt setup to work, you may have from 1 to all of them on your water pumps - so you might need new pulleys there.

There are all sorts of different lengths of snouts available - though they are all designed for a modern blower belt type of pulley (they bolt on). Somebody will have to custom make you a v-belt drive pulley for the blower.

Belt Tensioner: Many ways to handle this - just needs to be designed and have a place to mount. In the old days, lots of folks used a tensioner that mounter off the snout - you don't see that much these days. My guess is that whatever you need, it will be custom made - and probably bolt to the front of the blower intake manifold.

Intake and Mounting: The Navarro intake was designed for a small blower - more like a SCoT . . . has a very small opening. You'll have to make a mounting plate of some sort for the 471 to bolt to. If you want to make the 471 look a bit better, you can have the case "pruned" (getting rid of the wide mounting flanges), then new mounting holes can be drilled/tapped on the outlet flange - then this can be bolted to whatever adapter plate you put on top of the manifold. Obviously somebody has to ponder how to actually get to, install and tighten the bolts - so it needs to be thought through.

Room in the Car: As you can imagine, all of this takes room on the front of the engine. So, if you're in a tight environment, you'll need to consider ALL of this and determine what you have to work with (it just may not fit!). You may also have to go to 59x water pumps and a different front setup - just another belt location option. Mounting a fan will undoubtedly be an issue - so you'll most likely be going to an electric fan - so plan on it.

Okay - enough of a brain dump for this morning!

B&S

[Tim Ayers]

I know this comment may be off topic, but most of my friends run SBC's. Most of them are switching over to LS1's with turbos. I was amazed at how much HP they are getting with these junk yard set-ups.

Besides looks, what keeps us from running turbos on our flatheads? Seems like a win/win. No parasitic HP drain running the drive, belts, etc. May help with cooling since under boost, the turbos are helping to pull the exhaust out. Plus, you are getting extra efficiency to help the "poor" breathing of the L-head design.

Just a thought...

[scooder]

Turbo's don't pull the exhaust out, quite the opposite. The exhaust blows the turbo which is on a common shaft as the compressor, and this bit pushes the inlet mix in.
As far as exhaust gas is concerned, the turbo is in the way. And they certainly don't help cool anything! You seen the heat these things operate at? They often glow red under boost conditions! The compressor being bolted to and on a common shaft as the turbo gets mighty hot.
An incorrectly sized turbo setup is not pleasant, the sizing is much more critical than a proper supercharger, you can easily change the speed of the supercharger and compensate for a size miss match, with turbos you need to change the hot side of the turbo to achieve this, much more spendy than a different size pulley.
Martin.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by scooder

Turbo's don't pull the exhaust out, quite the opposite. The exhaust blows the turbo which is on a common shaft as the compressor, and this bit pushes the inlet mix in.
As far as exhaust gas is concerned, the turbo is in the way. And they certainly don't help cool anything! You seen the heat these things operate at? They often glow red under boost conditions! The compressor being bolted to and on a common shaft as the turbo gets mighty hot.
An incorrectly sized turbo setup is not pleasant, the sizing is much more critical than a proper supercharger, you can easily change the speed of the supercharger and compensate for a size miss match, with turbos you need to change the hot side of the turbo to achieve this, much more spendy than a different size pulley.
Martin.

Hey Martin:

Thanks for the correction. Correct, the exhaust pushes the impellor, but once it starts spinning there isn't a vacuum effect created?

I'm truly asking for that's how I thought they worked. I may be completely off base on this.

I also know some set-ups use either an air to air and air to liquid intercooler set-up that to cool the charge.

I have seen some red hot turbo units and can imagine the heat they produce. So I guess you are saying the heat in then transferred to the incoming charge since they share the same impellor, thusly the need for an intercooler.

Tim

[1952henry]

Most over the road trucks use air to air systems

[flatheadmurre]

Its the pressure in the exhaust that powers the turbocharger, so it will always be a restriction compared to an open exhaust.
For the turbo to start vacuuming out the exhaust it has to be driven by the intake air flow.

[scooder]

Tim,
The turbo doesn't create a vacuum behind it once it's started spinning. It does a bit when you come off the loud pedal after stomping it, due to some inertia. But not when your under boost conditions. The inlet side of the turbo, the compressor under boost, of say 8lb has that same 8lb pushing against it (pressure being equal all over the area being pressurised) inturn, the exhaust side also "sees" this, due to the common shaft. So the exhaust gas has to overcome this 8lb pressure to spin the turbo.
You see, no vacuum behind to pull the exhaust gas out. A turbo works like a centrifugal supercharger (Frenzle and McCullouc (sp?) and the Paxton, to name a few) only the drive is by exhaust gas rather than belts from the crankshaft.
Under cruise conditions the turbo does turn freely, as there's no boost pressure in the inlet manifold pushing back.
And yes, the common shaft and the fact that both sides of the turbo are touching, a bunch of this heat gets sucked up by the inlet charge as it passes through the inlet manifold side of the turbo. Hence the need for intercooling.
In a blow through setup, using a (hat) on top of the carb piped to the turbo, so the whole carb is seeing boost pressure, the carb does somewhat cool the charge due to the latent heat evaporation of the fuel through the carb. This does remove a surprising amount of heat.
Hope that helps your questions.

P.S. There was an aftermarket turbo setup in the early 50's, for the flathead, it was developed by Bessia (sp? Again) not very successful, though not due to it being a turbo, it made 7lb pressure if I recall, more like money was the killer here, along with it being "new" untried and untested. I've only seen 1 pic of this, vary poor pic you can't really see what's going on under the hood.
Martin.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by scooder

Tim,
The turbo doesn't create a vacuum behind it once it's started spinning. It does a bit when you come off the loud pedal after stomping it, due to some inertia. But not when your under boost conditions. The inlet side of the turbo, the compressor under boost, of say 8lb has that same 8lb pushing against it (pressure being equal all over the area being pressurised) inturn, the exhaust side also "sees" this, due to the common shaft. So the exhaust gas has to overcome this 8lb pressure to spin the turbo.
You see, no vacuum behind to pull the exhaust gas out. A turbo works like a centrifugal supercharger (Frenzle and McCullouc (sp?) and the Paxton, to name a few) only the drive is by exhaust gas rather than belts from the crankshaft.
Under cruise conditions the turbo does turn freely, as there's no boost pressure in the inlet manifold pushing back.
And yes, the common shaft and the fact that both sides of the turbo are touching, a bunch of this heat gets sucked up by the inlet charge as it passes through the inlet manifold side of the turbo. Hence the need for intercooling.
In a blow through setup, using a (hat) on top of the carb piped to the turbo, so the whole carb is seeing boost pressure, the carb does somewhat cool the charge due to the latent heat evaporation of the fuel through the carb. This does remove a surprising amount of heat.
Hope that helps your questions.

P.S. There was an aftermarket turbo setup in the early 50's, for the flathead, it was developed by Bessia (sp? Again) not very successful, though not due to it being a turbo, it made 7lb pressure if I recall, more like money was the killer here, along with it being "new" untried and untested. I've only seen 1 pic of this, vary poor pic you can't really see what's going on under the hood.
Martin.

Martin:

Thank you. Learn something new every day. I guess I was wrong about how a turbo set up works. Makes sense how you explained it.

Tim

[flatheadmurre]

The need for an intercooler comes from that compressing air gives heat.
Doesn´t depend on what type of compressor root/piston.
And when you start turning up the boost you come to a point where you cant really benefit from it without a intercooler.
The heat transfer between hot/cold side of the turbo isnt the big problem.

[Ol' Ron]

This summer a 35 PU will be roaming the streets of CT. With a Blown 294 flat motor.

[scooder]

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Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

The need for an intercooler comes from that compressing air gives heat.
Doesn´t depend on what type of compressor root/piston.
And when you start turning up the boost you come to a point where you cant really benefit from it without a intercooler.
The heat transfer between hot/cold side of the turbo isnt the big problem.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the heat transfer, yes compressing the inlet charge will create heat no matter how your compressing it, and yes an intercooler will always help in cooling this charge. However, the turbo system does add more heat to the charge due to the heat transfer in the turbo. The temperature the turbo gets at high rpm boost is substantial and a good deal hotter than a proper supercharger, this fact can't be ignored surely.
A turbo setup most all the time needs an intercooler at the same boost pressure a supercharged setup is happy without the intercooler. An intake temperature sensor at the inlet manifold will tell you how much hotter the turbo setup gets without an intercooler. With a normal sized intercooler on the turbo setup, the intake charge temps are mostly equal to a supercharged setup with no intercooler with the same boost pressure.
Martin.

[flatheadmurre]

I agree you got heat transfer but its not the main reason for an intercooler.
Plenty of turbochargers around running happily without intercoolers.
Modern turbochargers are often also watercooled to deal with heat problems.
Are you compairing the same type and size with the only difference being direct driven ?
Or are we talking different types of superchargers ?

[scooder]

Different types bud, just using the 8lb number for comparison, turbo and a roots type gmc or Magnusson or Scot or whatever.
Martin.