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09-28-2013, 08:34 PM | #1 |
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Crank misaligned with FAM
Hi,
I *think* I have this figured out, but I wanted to be sure before I do something stupid. I am trying to get the timing correct on my '30 Coupe (it was not running right, points were way off, and the distributor body had a lot of play, etc. The car has sat for over three years). Anyway, I can't adjust the crankshaft position to accomplish the timing, since I cannot engage the crank nut through the crank hole - the crank is hitting the bottom edge of the crank nut. The front of the engine is too high by maybe 3/8" or so. The Coupe is equipped with Float-A-Motor aluminum motor mounts in the rear. The thick rubber pads are on the bottom, and it appears that having thinner ones would only make the problem worse, as lowering the rear of the engine would raise the crank nut even higher. I'd prefer not to mess with the rear engine mounts if it can be avoided. It appears that I could tighten the front engine mount bolt - it looks like there's enough space in the spring to do that. What I want to know, is this: am I approaching this right? Have I missed something? Will tightening the front mount cause me more problems? Thanks Ed
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09-28-2013, 08:40 PM | #2 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
the rear FAM mounts on the clutch housing have an up and downside. they are probably installed wrong, flip them over should fix your problem.
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09-28-2013, 08:59 PM | #3 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Hi huddy,
Timing for now, (with help of another person), can be done by: 1. Removing 4 plugs. 2. Jack up one rear wheel & place transmission in gear. 3. Rotate rear wheel in forward direction until timing pin slips in. Hope this helps to make it run better. Motor mounts can be done later. |
09-28-2013, 09:03 PM | #4 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
huddy it should be pretty easy to rotate the crank pulley by hand in neutral with the plugs out or if you have the space just roll it in gear
Last edited by Mitch//pa; 09-28-2013 at 09:44 PM. |
09-28-2013, 09:04 PM | #5 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Quote:
I might take a photo tomorrow and seek further comments. Thanks Ed
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09-28-2013, 09:06 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
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Ed Quote:
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09-28-2013, 09:06 PM | #7 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Quote:
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09-28-2013, 09:07 PM | #8 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Mitch,
Thank you. I will certainly try that! I knew someone would offer something helpful. I was way too focused on the hand crank issue. (Still want to fix that eventually, though). Ed
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09-28-2013, 09:09 PM | #9 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Definitely first check the rear mount installation per Mitch/pa above. Also, have you installed the rear transmission support? The FAM system is less rigid than the stock mounts and needs the rear trans support, although it is often not installed. The rubber donuts compress over time and the rear support is needed. Once you check these things, you can then adjust the front mount to fit.
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09-28-2013, 09:25 PM | #10 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Here's photos of the mounts and crank misalignment.
I don't know if the tranny mount is installed, as I didn't do the installation and the previous owner (my very good friend) has gone to that great garage in the sky, 3+ years past. I will have to do an inspection underneath and such, and had planned to do so as I doubt the car has been lubed for quite some time. Anyway, here's the photos; I hope someone can tell me something from them. The left mount is first, then the right, and finally the crank.
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09-28-2013, 09:42 PM | #11 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Some mounts are marked top but not all so be careful
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09-29-2013, 12:24 AM | #12 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Be careful if you use the crank pulley to turn the engine. They can break pretty easily. Also, don't use your fan either, for the same reason.
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09-29-2013, 08:12 AM | #13 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Ray
Thanks for the heads-up. Coupe has a plastic 5-bladed fan so no problem there, won't touch it. Hadn't heard about the crank but I'll be careful if I ever can get it to engage. I've ordered the tool from Bratton's that accesses the hex nut on the pulley and will use that for setting timing after today. Today I'll probably just do the "remove the plugs and jack a rear tire" trick and confront the engine mount issue later. I'm not driving for a few days anyway because I'm waiting for some parts to arrive, including a new wiring harness (the old one is pretty bad) and some ignition parts (old disty is also pretty worn). I wanted to start it up so I could back it out onto my gravel drive and give the engine a good cleaning, along with a coolant flushing. --Ed
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09-29-2013, 10:11 AM | #14 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Quote:
Are we sure this is true? It seems to me that "lowering the rear of the engine" would lower the whole drive train, engine front and all. There is nothing holding the end of the driveshaft and U-joint, etc. in place that would force the motor to teeter-totter as though the rear mounts were a fulcrum. (Of course, the front mount could be tightened to forcer teetering.) I vaguely recall hearing years ago that some of the FAM rubber pads had to be cut down. My understanding is that you are supposed to tighten the FAM center bolts until you have just begun to further visibly compress the bisquits. Similarly for the hold down nut and the springs on the front mount. Probably not but maybe this would buy you enough to engage the hand crank? Steve |
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09-29-2013, 10:40 AM | #15 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
the float o motor system has another mount that attaches to the U joint housing and rests on a rubber block which rests on the rear cross member. These are often omitted, which causes the rear of the engine to sag. Is yours there?
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09-29-2013, 10:58 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
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I've spent a lot of time taking mine in and out while trying to perceive any difference in vibration isolation. Installing my F150 trans finally relieved me of the decision. Steve |
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09-29-2013, 11:15 AM | #17 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Guys, my front mount appears to be original (car was made mid-June 1930) and doesn't look to have been disturbed for a llllong time. Motor has been out as my friend put in a balanced crank & cut down flywheel about 15-yrs ago. I think that's when he put the FAM mounts in.
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Owning an antique car is "start fixing one thing, find four other things that need fixing." Lather, rinse, repeat. Last edited by huddy; 09-29-2013 at 11:25 AM. |
09-29-2013, 11:30 AM | #18 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Just jack up on the flywheel housing until you get the nut lightned up with the hole. It won't take much. Then fix the motor mounts when you can.
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09-29-2013, 03:52 PM | #19 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Quote:
In my experience it's highly unlikely you have the original front mount springs. Did you check out the link in post #10? I'm betting on that being the problem. The good thing is appropriate springs are now readily available.
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09-29-2013, 04:02 PM | #20 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Huddy, I didn't mean to imply that using the crank might damage the pulley; that is the right way to turn it. I meant applying some kind of pry bar or long screwdriver from the side might cause damage. Your crank should work fine if the ratchet bolt is in good condition.
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09-30-2013, 08:47 AM | #21 |
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UPDATE: Crank misaligned with FAM
Hi guys
Latest is that we were able to accomplish the timing by jacking a tire & removing all the plugs. Couldn't hardly budge the engine with the plugs in, so I suspect I don't have a compression problem. We did this in 3rd gear. After being timed, the engine ran better than before. It was probably off time, plus the points were in horrible shape. They are new style and I have ordered the parts to convert it back to old style (points looked like something borrowed off an old garden tractor - we used a fine file and emery cloth to clean them, and the rotor was in contact with the plastic cam follower, pushing them off center). Once we had the car running, we decided to check the rear mounts. Jacking the bell housing did not improve the alignment of the crank, and reversing the mounts would only make the problem worse. There's not much clearance to raise the back of the engine anyway - the battery cable hits the firewall, and even relocating the cable would only yield a half inch or so, and I don't want the engine that close to the body. Lowering the rear of the engine did no good either. I'm going to see if anything can be done with the front mount. I don't know if it's original parts - the springs are conical rather than cylindrical. The replacements (Bratton's) appear to be cylindrical in the photos. Again, thanks to all who responded for your words of wisdom. Rgds Ed
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Owning an antique car is "start fixing one thing, find four other things that need fixing." Lather, rinse, repeat. |
09-30-2013, 08:51 AM | #22 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
No problem here. I'm careful with anything that old anyway. I've ordered the crank wrench from Bratton's which has a hex box end to engage the pulley nut at the rear, and is bent to clear the pulley. It doesn't use the ratchet teeth on the front of the nut.
Quote:
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09-30-2013, 08:54 AM | #23 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Marco,
Thanks, yes I did. The two top springs are conical shaped and appear to be held with drilled bolts & castellated nuts. The mount is yoke shaped. There appears to be some space left in the bottom spring and I may see if I can pull the front of the engine down with that bolt. Ed
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09-30-2013, 10:05 AM | #24 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
I've had a couple of those conical springs and they were connected to each other. I removed them and bought the correct springs. Adjusting the bottom spring then pulled the crank into perfect alignment to use the hand crank.
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09-30-2013, 11:07 AM | #25 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Oh, those conical springs always mess up the crank alignment, as well as increase vibration. In the long run, the connection between them vibrates deep into the cross member, weakening it. The original mounts ( front and back) work the best because they were designed for the job by Ford engineers.
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09-30-2013, 11:09 AM | #26 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
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Owning an antique car is "start fixing one thing, find four other things that need fixing." Lather, rinse, repeat. |
09-30-2013, 04:09 PM | #27 | |
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Re: UPDATE: Crank misaligned with FAM
Quote:
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09-30-2013, 08:01 PM | #28 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
My old friend Urb Stair, now long gone, told me years ago take those things out and install stock mounts. They can't be beat. Urb posted regularly in The Restorer for years under his nom de plume, Red-E-Power and is also a contributor in the Tiny Tips book sold by MAFCA.
I now remove them and install stock rear mounts and stock front mounts in all my cars. Richard Anaheim CA. |
08-12-2014, 07:18 PM | #29 |
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UPDATE: Crank misaligned with FAM, from 2013
From last year, believe it or not. I've been traveling a lot and haven't had a chance to do much actual wrenching until this week.
I removed the old front engine mount, which was NOT stock and had the two conical springs attached together, plus no spring below the crossmember. I had the excellent repop front engine mount from Snyder's, and installed that (which was no picnic - there's not much room to work with if you don't remove the radiator*). Amazingly, the crank hole now aligns correctly with the crankshaft pulley. The engine looks "right" now, whereas it didn't look "right" before. So here's a belated thanks to all those who provided advice and moral support! * To remove the old front mount and install the new, I had to remove the hood, loosen the side/rear FAM mounts, remove the FAM transmission mount, and remove the alternator to make space to work in. I had to jack the engine upward an inch or two, which really made me uncomfortable. To install the new mount, I found that I had to put the lower spring, bushing, and nut on first, just a couple threads in place, then put the two upper springs on. In order to get them to fit, I threaded a cargo strap thru the bolt holes in the new mount, tightened over the radiator braces, first on one side, then the other, to pull the mount upward enough to force the springs in. Then I lowered the engine and bolted the mount in place. Finally I tightened the nut on the lower bolt so that the crank would engage, lined up the hole for the cotter pin, and installed the pin. Then, of course, undo everything I removed or loosened. Whew! But it was worth it. I'm sure there's an easier way but I couldn't figure out anything better, and it worked for me.
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08-13-2014, 12:31 AM | #30 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Thanks for reporting back, Huddy, we been holding our breath, (WHHHEEEW!) It's been 11 months, you're slower than me.
Bill W.
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08-13-2014, 12:16 PM | #31 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
I had the same problem with mine, not as bad as yours, I just put in the front float a motor mount and now the motor sets were it's supposed to. I already had the rear float a motor mount. worked for me, It also made my coupe run smoother. Mine also had an after market front mount and woulden't let the motor come down far enough.
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08-13-2014, 12:31 PM | #32 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
I'm not a fan of float-A-motor mounts. I do use the conical joined front mount springs and feel that they are an improvement. I have no pronlem with hand crank alignment. I don't use the rubber parts with the aftermarket mount springs but use a spring under the castillated nut under the front crossmember. I have found the aftermarket front mount springs to remove chatter when taking off in some cars with chatter. They may be called a band aid by some. Sometimes the easy way is best when it works. A lot of others must like them as well because they have been offered for many, many years. Just my experience with them. I can't guarantee that everyone will have the same results.
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08-13-2014, 02:51 PM | #33 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Quote:
Bill W.
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08-13-2014, 04:18 PM | #34 |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Enrico* doesn't have a chatter problem - balanced crank & V8 clutch, starts & shifts smoothly. I didn't like the aftermarket front mount as I felt it kept the front of the engine too high. I don't have a problem with the FAM rear mounts - even if I did, I don't know where the originals are so I'm basically stuck with them.
*Enrico = Spanish for "Henry" since it's a SoCal car originally
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08-13-2014, 04:34 PM | #35 | |
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Re: Crank misaligned with FAM
Quote:
I installed float-A-motor mounts in our 31 coupe back in 1980, still in it till this day. They aren't that bad if the rear mount part that connects to the universal joint housing is used. It did develope some chatter shortly after installation. I installed the aftermarket front mount springs and a Mallory dual point distributor and that mostly solved the chatter. I was told by one guy that the Mallory advanced so smoothly that it helped relieve the chatter. My daughter now has the coupe and drives it quite a bit. I've got a bunch of rear mount blocks but they would be a real pain to replace. My daughter is happy with it and I probably will never change them out, being as I don't have to.. |
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