Interesting bore dimensions

[GB SISSON]

My friends here on fordbarn have enriched my life greatly. I finally know people that 'get what I do'. Most folks around here just think I'm some kind of obsessed mechanical nut. Duh. And they don't know the half of it.

[flatford8]

“Most folks around here just think I'm some kind of obsessed mechanical nut. Duh. And they don't know the half of it”........when people around here ask me why I do what I do....I just point to my head and say.....”you have NO idea what’s going on up here”........Mark

[38 coupe]

GB, you might find out that you now have a nice piloted reamer for doing king pin bushings, Your wife might just get to keep her wooden spoons...
Nice collection of stuff. Did you get any high speed steel (HSS) blanks with everything? That grinder should have adjustable rests so you can get the perfect angle when sharpening a tool.

[cas3]

38 coupe, on that grinder the tables tilt for one angle, and then a miter in the track for another angle, so you grind the bit on 2 sides . Truly a fine machine

[GB SISSON]

No High speed steel blanks, but I see they can be had quite reasonably. And Skip, I have lusted after a big baldor pedestal grinder for years and this falls on my lap on the island, just before I get the lathe.....I thought about mentioning that the poor old wooden spoon may have to be put out to pasture. Never seen an adjustable reamer before, now I have a couple handfuls of them. Just got back from a jobsite. I hate this work stuff interfearing with my new tools. Oh well, it's Friday. I'll get a fire going down there early tomorrow morning.

[cas3]

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2 angles, I should have said in above post. Thats whats so special about it, made really for sharpening lathe tools, not lawn mower blades and chisels. In my shop I have 3 grinders. One, wire wheel and corse stone for whatever. two, my nice smooth runner,
a green stone for carbide tool bits, and a brown stone for steel that I keep true for grinding the steel back a bit before dressing the carbide...never put steel on your green stone, and dress them often for true. three, is for doing tungsten tig welding rods. A normal gray stone on one side to rough in a tip, and a diamond face disk on the other side to finish the point and remove the stone contamination. And still...Like GB I have always lusted a big ol' baldor grinder.
Anyway, that is a special grinder GB got, like I said I've only seen one other. I'll bet Kube could tell us all about it as a tool and die maker. I'm no machinist, I just own machines.

[cas3]

GB, here's a book you will enjoy, "how to run a lathe" put out by SouthBend in....I dunno,
my copy is 1940. After owning a lathe for 30 years I still look at it to refresh my memory on some topics. Mine was an ebay buy, there are reprints and originals there, pretty cheap, I think you will like it. lousy pic, maybe Pete Can fix it!

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by cas3

GB, here's a book you will enjoy, "how to run a lathe" put out by SouthBend in....I dunno,
my copy is 1940. After owning a lathe for 30 years I still look at it to refresh my memory on some topics. Mine was an ebay buy, there are reprints and originals there, pretty cheap, I think you will like it. lousy pic, maybe Pete Can fix it!

[GB SISSON]

Thank you Skip, Thank you Pete. I now have a used version heading this way from amazon. I have been researching the valve seat cutter and come up with more questions than answers. I found some complete sets on ebay with good photos and that is really helpful to know what stuff from my piles goes with this set. Still unsure it that huge 'drill motor' came with the set, or if you were to drive it with your own big drill. Found some more interesting parts last night. Will get some pics.

[flatjack9]

Look in to Neway valve seat cutters.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

Look in to Neway valve seat cutters.

Thanks, I checked it out, but it now seems I actually have everything I need to cut the counterbores in the kit I got last weekend. Here's something I don't understand about the terminology used here. Some seat cutters are conical, actually cutting a 45 on a newly pressed in seat. Some seat cutters shown under the same terminology are square shouldered and cut what I would call a counterbore for pressing in perhaps an oversized seat or even seats in an 8ba type to convert to hard seats. Way back in this thread there is a photo of an ugly job someone musta botched on an 8ba in my collection. I also have 2 nos ford seats and a third marked .020 OS . I had thought at first that this mandrel (over a pilot) was driven with a large drill. But I also see mention of a T handle to hand crank the cutter. The written instructions inside the box lid are very hard to read. There are a couple of these same kits on ebay, and though I won't be buying them, they show quite well the few things I'm still missing. I have the correct universal cutter for our fords and a very large one. I'm missing the sizes in between, which makes little difference to me. I'm also missing the driver which looks like a heavy knurled slug with the appropriate pilot hole. First lathe project? and the T handle (easy). Also, would a kit like this normally have the 45 degree cutter for putting the angle on the new seat? I had initially thought the seat angle (or all 3) would be ground in with the stones, but that is not likely the case. You can see I have a lot to learn, but the subject is very interesting to me. I still have a few pics of unidentified tools from the trip I will put up tomorrow for a quiz. Edit: The red and orange cases are the seat cutter and seat grinder all cleaned up and organized.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Thanks, I checked it out, but it now seems I actually have everything I need to cut the counterbores in the kit I got last weekend. Here's something I don't understand about the terminology used here. Some seat cutters are conical, actually cutting a 45 on a newly pressed in seat. Some seat cutters shown under the same terminology are square shouldered and cut what I would call a counterbore for pressing in perhaps an oversized seat or even seats in an 8ba type to convert to hard seats. Way back in this thread there is a photo of an ugly job someone musta botched on an 8ba in my collection. I also have 2 nos ford seats and a third marked .020 OS . I had thought at first that this mandrel (over a pilot) was driven with a large drill. But I also see mention of a T handle to hand crank the cutter. The written instructions inside the box lid are very hard to read. There are a couple of these same kits on ebay, and though I won't be buying them, they show quite well the few things I'm still missing. I have the correct universal cutter for our fords and a very large one. I'm missing the sizes in between, which makes little difference to me. I'm also missing the driver which looks like a heavy knurled slug with the appropriate pilot hole. First lathe project? and the T handle (easy). Also, would a kit like this normally have the 45 degree cutter for putting the angle on the new seat? I had initially thought the seat angle (or all 3) would be ground in with the stones, but that is not likely the case. You can see I have a lot to learn, but the subject is very interesting to me. I still have a few pics of unidentified tools from the trip I will put up tomorrow for a quiz. Edit: The red and orange cases are the seat cutter and seat grinder all cleaned up and organized.

[GB SISSON]

Thanks again Pete! And Flatjack, I just now watched a video of a guy using quickway valve seat cutters in an old 4 cyl jeep block. In my mind a hardened valve seat is just like incredibly hard steel, yet that little yellow quickway carved it out like butter. Maybe all this stuff I dragged home is sitting around in piles, for pennies on the dollar because these new type cutters have made it all obsolete. The guy just cranked it around by hand about 8 times and a perfect seat angle. No vibro motor action, no diamond dressers for the stones, no 40 lb steel boxes. I'm guessing those cutting edges are made of kryptonite. They probably make cutters to recess a valve seat ring down into the block too. Like I said, I know very little on this subject, and I tend to harbor romantic notions about the past and 'the old guy working in the back of the gas station'.... Thing cut that hard seat like it was butter. Amazing.

[38 coupe]

In my very limited experience helping a friend do valve jobs on Model T blocks and flathead V8 blocks the cutters got used on blocks without hard seats (valve seating on the cast iron of the block) and the grinding stones got used on hard seats.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

In my very limited experience helping a friend do valve jobs on Model T blocks and flathead V8 blocks the cutters got used on blocks without hard seats (valve seating on the cast iron of the block) and the grinding stones got used on hard seats.

That is what I woulda thought too, but I see a lot of youtube videos made by what seem to be experienced valve people in well equipped shops using some of each on hard seats. Seems grinding is for seats with light wear these days. As far as counterboring for a seat, I am impressed with the Goodson adjustable counterbore and another modern innovation seems to be the SBI system where the cutter has a 4 digit number and so does the seat. The .004 interference fit is built into the system. I am by no means going into the valve grinding trade, but since I happened across this old sioux counterbore setup, I just may attempt to pull that hideous mashed up ring from an otherwise excellent 8ba block and see what I can do. Keep in mind, the machine shop is an all day trip, or two days if you include picking it up. Besides, my little mechanical brain is getting a lot of exercise soaking up all this info.

[Bored&Stroked]

There are various tools used to cut out the hard seats and install new ones. It is important that you have Flathead Ford specific mandrels that pickup the lifter and guide bores to drive the cutters on. One should not attempt to use a valve guide and an OHV pilot to do any of the seat work. The stock guides are too loose in the guide bores! I'm fortunate to have located both Sioux and KwikWay mandrels - for both my valve seat tooling setups.

There are carbide cutters that can be used to cut seat angles, thought they are surely not more accurate than using correct stone procedures. Also, some seat cutters will cut multiple angles in one pass --- like 30, 45 and 60.

Here are a couple video links that I made at the end of last year that show an ancient KwikWay seat cutting tool (glad I found one!), the resulting new/wider seat pockets (for 1.72" valves) and then my friend Jeff Fowler driving in a new seat.

Cutting New Seat Pockets With KwiKWay Seat Cutter:

https://youtube.com/shorts/ZdR1zZLZaTw

59L Race Block - Showing New Seat Pockets:

https://youtube.com/shorts/5Z-EheS73zM

Driving in New 1.75" Seats:

https://youtube.com/shorts/aCrNzCg4W1A

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

There are carbide cutters that can be used to cut seat angles, thought they are surely not more accurate than using correct stone procedures. Also, some seat cutters will cut multiple angles in one pass --- like 30, 45 and 60.

The carbide cutters do a more accurate job if used in the proper machine like a Serdi.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

There are various tools used to cut out the hard seats and install new ones. It is important that you have Flathead Ford specific mandrels that pickup the lifter and guide bores to drive the cutters on. One should not attempt to use a valve guide and an OHV pilot to do any of the seat work. The stock guides are too loose in the guide bores! I'm fortunate to have located both Sioux and KwikWay mandrels - for both my valve seat tooling setups.

There are carbide cutters that can be used to cut seat angles, thought they are surely not more accurate than using correct stone procedures. Also, some seat cutters will cut multiple angles in one pass --- like 30, 45 and 60.

Here are a couple video links that I made at the end of last year that show an ancient KwikWay seat cutting tool (glad I found one!), the resulting new/wider seat pockets (for 1.72" valves) and then my friend Jeff Fowler driving in a new seat.

Cutting New Seat Pockets With KwiKWay Seat Cutter:

https://youtube.com/shorts/ZdR1zZLZaTw

59L Race Block - Showing New Seat Pockets:

https://youtube.com/shorts/5Z-EheS73zM

Driving in New 1.75" Seats:

https://youtube.com/shorts/aCrNzCg4W1A

PERFECT! Exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks so much for all this. I just came up from the 'Wannabe machine shop with training wheels', and my wife (best wife ever) served me a hot lunch. Now I'm going to scour these videos. I am also very fortunate to have the Ford pilots for both my B&D seat grinder and another for my Sioux seat cutter and grinder setups. The two pilots don't interchange as the Sioux is larger. You can see the Sioux has only one taper that indexes onto the guide area. It still seems solid, but not like the B&D double job. Now for a bonus, last weeks lathe haulback also netted a quick coupled T handle for removing the B&D pilot. I have done two engines with that pilot and was always confounded by the effort to unstick it. I took to tapping it out from underneath. Everything else in that haul was Sioux andb the T handle won't fit them. OK, it's movie time. Thanks again in advance. Gary

[GB SISSON]

B&S, Your movies were very informative while being concise. If that were me, I woulda told my life story, then described the whole process I was demonstrating even if I didn't know jack **** about it. Was that about .004 interference on the seats and did you heat the block and or chill the seats? They seemed to go in with authority.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Pete

The carbide cutters do a more accurate job if used in the proper machine like a Serdi.

I'd agree with you as far as consistency goes --> same locations, widths, etc.. which is much harder to do in a consistent fashion using multiple stones, but Jeff Fowler believes that when it comes to final seat sealing surface quality, that stones will be as good or better than carbide (depending on who is doing them).

With that said, seat machines like a Serdi sure speed up the whole valve job process in a big way.