The Ford Barn

rotorwrench · 03-06-2023, 10:27 PM

The earlier model T generators worked with four poles but the poles use opposing polarity across the shaft centerline, ie north to north and south to south but the surprising thing is how the brushes are set 90 degrees to each other instead of a more common nearer 180 degrees across the center of the commutater This likely forced a curved magnetic field in the pole sets. This might be what retired that design unless the diagrams are a misprint.

The powerhouse is likely set up N-S-N-S-N-S. With this configuration, it would have three cross-over magnetic fields for the armature to rotate through. The major difference between the five brush and the three brush it that the armature can draw current from two sets of brushes on the five brush but only one set on a three brush. The consensus is that the powerhouse had a large diameter armature and a lot more field coils so it could manage heat better. This may be why folks could get away with higher output than the Autolite designs.

Tom always put his litte electronic control unit in them. The things worked really well configured that way. As long as the battery and circuit connections were maintained in clean & tight condition, the system would be very reliable.

steamgas · 03-07-2023, 11:01 AM

thank you sir so very much for replying back. when i checked the commentator from bar to bar i used a multi-meter and checked the resistance and it measured .9 ohms with all bars. i see where some other's would have a spring perch bar that needed re soldered. i have a hard time understanding that when the brush lead and the field lead come together at the top of the spring post and fasten to each other with a screw thus bypassing a problem with a loose post(what am i missing here?) i have a new set of brushes coming in the next few days maby that will do some good, i checked the brushes for continuity and they checked good but who knows something may be breaking down during the generating process.thank you so much for taking the time to help me.
tex

rotorwrench · 03-07-2023, 12:42 PM

I think what was happening is that the spring post was sort of riveted to the base but could get an intermittent flow path if the bond between the post and the base would get a little loose. Soldering the post to the base would insure a constant flow pathway. I think Tom Wessenberg would solder them just to make sure they always could flow electrons. It has to be done quick so a large soldering iron has to be used to do that. That phenolic ring can't take much abuse or heat at all and no one makes new parts for all that stuff. The ground posts on the 5-brush units were likely the most vulnerable to that problem.

steamgas · 03-07-2023, 01:45 PM

dear sir
when i started on this powerhouse generator the brush holder ring just fell to pieces in my hand. i made a ring out of delrin material. i wish i could post a picture of it here but i don't have a camera. to me the path of least resistance would be the connection of the brush wire and the field wire.
with the growler setup how do i check the amperage output of the winding? i just set my multi-meter to amps and placed one lead to a commentator bar and the other to ground but that showed me nothing. what is the process to do this amperage test?

rotorwrench · 03-07-2023, 03:46 PM

Testing for opens is a test probe of adjacent commutater bars while the armature is in the active field set up by the growler. A good armature will have approximately the same indicator reading with the probes setting on adjacent bars. A person rotates and checks between all the bars around the circumference of the commutater. All indications taken should be about the same reading all the way around.

Kurt in NJ · 03-07-2023, 04:43 PM

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it’s sort of crude, a experiment, light duty lamp cord — this is a shunt, bent the prongs of the plug to touch 2 bars, the voltmeter is measuring the voltage drop of the thinner than the windings wire when shorting the commutator bars, different positions on the commutator give different readings, i usually find the highest reading area and move the armature.
I just bought another growler that has a ammeter, it is different because the ammeter measured the amp draw of the growler (shorting the bars causes the growler to draw more.
some growlers have probes that measure directly.
a full short using ammeter directly just collapsed the magnetic field, (failed experiment), using diode to make dc for dc ammeter failed too.
a paperclip �� used to short bars can be used , look at spark and feel the paper clip get hot ( may need quick reaction to prevent burns!
the clamp on ac ammeter showed about 15 amps, and a little over.6 volt drop through the cord shunt.

steamgas · 03-08-2023, 10:13 AM

well guy's i don't know what to tell you. the only thing that i could get to work is the paper clip tool. it did produce heat but not on all the bars. dose that indicate a problem? my milt-meter tool are from harbor fright which might be a large part of the problem. thank you for the effort you are making to help me out. i have a set of new brushes coming and i will try them first and if no success i am going to order a used rotor. not many options left.
tex

Kurt in NJ · 03-08-2023, 12:22 PM

you have to rotate the armature and check at the same place in reference to the growler, just going around the commutator with the armature stationary will give different readings in different areas.

steamgas · 03-17-2023, 05:26 PM

please look closely and see if you can see something wrong. please let me know if you do.
tex

rotorwrench · 03-17-2023, 06:42 PM

The power and ground brushes look to be properly connected and the 3rd brush is connected to the beginning of the field coils. I can't see the ground connection to the case at the end of the field coils so I can't confirm that.

Did you ever check the field with a compass to insure each of the 3 north/south pairs have the proper polarity?

steamgas · 03-18-2023, 07:12 AM

thank you sir for checking things out for me. i will get a picture of the field ground screw poster here soon. no i haven't checked the polarity with a compass. i need to find one that is small enough to get down in there with. i will be working on them.

Kurt in NJ · 03-18-2023, 07:23 AM

you should be able to use a compass on the outside

steamgas · 03-18-2023, 07:24 AM

field ground screw

rotorwrench · 03-18-2023, 10:43 AM

If the field has been polarized in the amperage check of the coil set then the pole shoes are magnetized with a fair amount of residual magnetism. Some of that magnetic field will be detectable on the outside of the case but even more so on the inside with the armature removed. On the outside the polarity will be opposite of the inside. Where there is a north pole on one side there will be a south pole on the other side. The inside it where it matters since it is facing the armature core. A cheapy little compass will show the polarity, ie North or South. A person would need a gauss or field meter to check how strong the field is but I'd suffice it to say that it should be enough if properly polarized by flashing the field.

The residual magnetism is enough to generate a voltage just above the battery voltage to allow the cut out relay to bring the generator on line with the battery. Once the generator is on line, the 3rd brush will draw more power off the armature and strengthen the field depending on the position of the 3rd brush. The battery will regulate the voltage pretty well since these generators usually only put out from 4 to 10 amps depending on that third brush adjustment.

Are those new field coils and if so, where did they come from?

steamgas · 03-18-2023, 01:49 PM

dear sir
thank you for your interest in my problem. i think the heart of my problem is the residual magnetism. the coils are new ones that i wound myself. i used tom wesenburg's information for the winding data. here it is,#20 gauge magnet wire(.033),103 turns. it checked 6.0 ohms. from the ground screw as a reference and going in a clockwise direction,the first coil is a ccw,the second coil is a cw,the third coil is a ccw,the forth coil is a cw,the fifth coil is a ccw and the sixth coil is a cw. the lead out of the sixth coil goes to the moveable brush. i don't think the residual magnetism is enough to pull the cutout points together to start the generating process. what can i do to increase the residual magnetism?

Gene F · 03-18-2023, 06:30 PM

Where can you get the 600 wat these days? I have several, and they all seem to be wimpy. Drives me crazy.

rotorwrench · 03-18-2023, 07:31 PM

It only takes a few moments to flash a field. Each pole shoe will build a magnetic field according to the way the coil is wound and to the polarity of the battery or power source in the way it is connected. If power source polarity is reversed then the magnetic fields will also be reversed. A small compass is the only way to check the magnetic polarity of each pole shoe after it's magnetized.

6 ohms seems to be a high reading for a powerhouse. They are usually lower than that according to Tom Wesenberg's information.

I did Magneflux inspections for a time and used a big machine that magnetized the parts to find cracks. The parts always had a fair amount of residual magnetism whether doing a DC coil shot or a straight through DC head shot. We had to pass the parts through a big AC coil to demagnetize them. They couldn't have any residual since it would draw metal particles to them and that ain't good on internal engine or transmission/drive system parts.

steamgas · 03-19-2023, 06:37 AM

i will double check the ohms on the field coils and let you know.i just checked it again and it is 6.0 ohms. if this resistance is too high what effect dose that have on the overall workings of the generator?

rotorwrench · 03-19-2023, 08:56 AM

Tom always checked the current draw so he didn't always get too concerned about the Ohms reading. He pulled a coil apart and checked the wire gauge, length of wire, and number of windings and they are all pretty close to what you have mentioned. Direction of winding, ie clockwise or counter clockwise and it appears that you observed that. Tom noted that the CW wound coils are North pole coils and CCW were south pole coils. He also noted the the coil at the ground end in the case is a north pole coil and then alternating clockwise in this succession as N-S-N-S-N-S toward the 3rd brush end of the field. This is very important to the proper operation of a positive ground generator.

I'm sure you probably have seen Tom's thread on the VF forum about this. It's titled "More Powerhouse Generator Information".

The only other thing I can think of is if the connect up pigtails for each field coil connection was stripped of any insulation varnish where the pig tails are twisted and soldered together. They need good clean wire to wire contact. I don't know if they would even solder together if varnish was on there but I figured I'd add that just to be sure.

steamgas · 03-20-2023, 06:47 AM

yes i did clean the varnish from the magnet wire before i soldered them together. could there be that i am missing a wire connected to the field terminal to the battery post at the commentator brush post? if i get the generator spinning and take a wire from the battery - post and connect it to the field post wouldn't this give me the magnetic field to start the generating process to get things started?

03-06-2023, 10:27 PM	#21
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: powerhouse generator question The earlier model T generators worked with four poles but the poles use opposing polarity across the shaft centerline, ie north to north and south to south but the surprising thing is how the brushes are set 90 degrees to each other instead of a more common nearer 180 degrees across the center of the commutater This likely forced a curved magnetic field in the pole sets. This might be what retired that design unless the diagrams are a misprint. The powerhouse is likely set up N-S-N-S-N-S. With this configuration, it would have three cross-over magnetic fields for the armature to rotate through. The major difference between the five brush and the three brush it that the armature can draw current from two sets of brushes on the five brush but only one set on a three brush. The consensus is that the powerhouse had a large diameter armature and a lot more field coils so it could manage heat better. This may be why folks could get away with higher output than the Autolite designs. Tom always put his litte electronic control unit in them. The things worked really well configured that way. As long as the battery and circuit connections were maintained in clean & tight condition, the system would be very reliable.

03-07-2023, 11:01 AM	#22
steamgas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: va Posts: 138	Re: powerhouse generator question thank you sir so very much for replying back. when i checked the commentator from bar to bar i used a multi-meter and checked the resistance and it measured .9 ohms with all bars. i see where some other's would have a spring perch bar that needed re soldered. i have a hard time understanding that when the brush lead and the field lead come together at the top of the spring post and fasten to each other with a screw thus bypassing a problem with a loose post(what am i missing here?) i have a new set of brushes coming in the next few days maby that will do some good, i checked the brushes for continuity and they checked good but who knows something may be breaking down during the generating process.thank you so much for taking the time to help me. tex

03-07-2023, 12:42 PM	#23
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: powerhouse generator question I think what was happening is that the spring post was sort of riveted to the base but could get an intermittent flow path if the bond between the post and the base would get a little loose. Soldering the post to the base would insure a constant flow pathway. I think Tom Wessenberg would solder them just to make sure they always could flow electrons. It has to be done quick so a large soldering iron has to be used to do that. That phenolic ring can't take much abuse or heat at all and no one makes new parts for all that stuff. The ground posts on the 5-brush units were likely the most vulnerable to that problem.

03-07-2023, 01:45 PM	#24
steamgas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: va Posts: 138	Re: powerhouse generator question dear sir when i started on this powerhouse generator the brush holder ring just fell to pieces in my hand. i made a ring out of delrin material. i wish i could post a picture of it here but i don't have a camera. to me the path of least resistance would be the connection of the brush wire and the field wire. with the growler setup how do i check the amperage output of the winding? i just set my multi-meter to amps and placed one lead to a commentator bar and the other to ground but that showed me nothing. what is the process to do this amperage test?

03-07-2023, 03:46 PM	#25
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: powerhouse generator question Testing for opens is a test probe of adjacent commutater bars while the armature is in the active field set up by the growler. A good armature will have approximately the same indicator reading with the probes setting on adjacent bars. A person rotates and checks between all the bars around the circumference of the commutater. All indications taken should be about the same reading all the way around. Last edited by rotorwrench; 03-07-2023 at 03:57 PM.

03-08-2023, 10:13 AM	#27
steamgas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: va Posts: 138	Re: powerhouse generator question well guy's i don't know what to tell you. the only thing that i could get to work is the paper clip tool. it did produce heat but not on all the bars. dose that indicate a problem? my milt-meter tool are from harbor fright which might be a large part of the problem. thank you for the effort you are making to help me out. i have a set of new brushes coming and i will try them first and if no success i am going to order a used rotor. not many options left. tex

03-08-2023, 12:22 PM	#28
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: powerhouse generator question you have to rotate the armature and check at the same place in reference to the growler, just going around the commutator with the armature stationary will give different readings in different areas.

03-17-2023, 06:42 PM	#30
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: powerhouse generator question The power and ground brushes look to be properly connected and the 3rd brush is connected to the beginning of the field coils. I can't see the ground connection to the case at the end of the field coils so I can't confirm that. Did you ever check the field with a compass to insure each of the 3 north/south pairs have the proper polarity?

03-18-2023, 07:12 AM	#31
steamgas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: va Posts: 138	Re: powerhouse generator question thank you sir for checking things out for me. i will get a picture of the field ground screw poster here soon. no i haven't checked the polarity with a compass. i need to find one that is small enough to get down in there with. i will be working on them.

03-18-2023, 07:23 AM	#32
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: powerhouse generator question you should be able to use a compass on the outside

03-18-2023, 10:43 AM	#34
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: powerhouse generator question If the field has been polarized in the amperage check of the coil set then the pole shoes are magnetized with a fair amount of residual magnetism. Some of that magnetic field will be detectable on the outside of the case but even more so on the inside with the armature removed. On the outside the polarity will be opposite of the inside. Where there is a north pole on one side there will be a south pole on the other side. The inside it where it matters since it is facing the armature core. A cheapy little compass will show the polarity, ie North or South. A person would need a gauss or field meter to check how strong the field is but I'd suffice it to say that it should be enough if properly polarized by flashing the field. The residual magnetism is enough to generate a voltage just above the battery voltage to allow the cut out relay to bring the generator on line with the battery. Once the generator is on line, the 3rd brush will draw more power off the armature and strengthen the field depending on the position of the 3rd brush. The battery will regulate the voltage pretty well since these generators usually only put out from 4 to 10 amps depending on that third brush adjustment. Are those new field coils and if so, where did they come from?

03-18-2023, 06:30 PM	#36
Gene F Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,975	Re: powerhouse generator question Where can you get the 600 wat these days? I have several, and they all seem to be wimpy. Drives me crazy.

03-18-2023, 07:31 PM	#37
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: powerhouse generator question It only takes a few moments to flash a field. Each pole shoe will build a magnetic field according to the way the coil is wound and to the polarity of the battery or power source in the way it is connected. If power source polarity is reversed then the magnetic fields will also be reversed. A small compass is the only way to check the magnetic polarity of each pole shoe after it's magnetized. 6 ohms seems to be a high reading for a powerhouse. They are usually lower than that according to Tom Wesenberg's information. I did Magneflux inspections for a time and used a big machine that magnetized the parts to find cracks. The parts always had a fair amount of residual magnetism whether doing a DC coil shot or a straight through DC head shot. We had to pass the parts through a big AC coil to demagnetize them. They couldn't have any residual since it would draw metal particles to them and that ain't good on internal engine or transmission/drive system parts. Last edited by rotorwrench; 03-18-2023 at 07:44 PM.

03-19-2023, 06:37 AM	#38
steamgas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: va Posts: 138	Re: powerhouse generator question i will double check the ohms on the field coils and let you know.i just checked it again and it is 6.0 ohms. if this resistance is too high what effect dose that have on the overall workings of the generator? Last edited by steamgas; 03-19-2023 at 06:47 AM.

03-19-2023, 08:56 AM	#39
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: powerhouse generator question Tom always checked the current draw so he didn't always get too concerned about the Ohms reading. He pulled a coil apart and checked the wire gauge, length of wire, and number of windings and they are all pretty close to what you have mentioned. Direction of winding, ie clockwise or counter clockwise and it appears that you observed that. Tom noted that the CW wound coils are North pole coils and CCW were south pole coils. He also noted the the coil at the ground end in the case is a north pole coil and then alternating clockwise in this succession as N-S-N-S-N-S toward the 3rd brush end of the field. This is very important to the proper operation of a positive ground generator. I'm sure you probably have seen Tom's thread on the VF forum about this. It's titled "More Powerhouse Generator Information". The only other thing I can think of is if the connect up pigtails for each field coil connection was stripped of any insulation varnish where the pig tails are twisted and soldered together. They need good clean wire to wire contact. I don't know if they would even solder together if varnish was on there but I figured I'd add that just to be sure. Last edited by rotorwrench; 03-19-2023 at 05:49 PM.

03-20-2023, 06:47 AM	#40
steamgas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: va Posts: 138	Re: powerhouse generator question yes i did clean the varnish from the magnet wire before i soldered them together. could there be that i am missing a wire connected to the field terminal to the battery post at the commentator brush post? if i get the generator spinning and take a wire from the battery - post and connect it to the field post wouldn't this give me the magnetic field to start the generating process to get things started?