1935-36 Phaeton seats/hardware

[336Ford]

I am working on a '36 phaeton. It came without seat springs, so I ordered them from Snyders. The front seat support structure on the floor and across the back from B pillar to B pillar is intact. The pivoting back seat support is also there. What I don't have, and don't have a clue about, is the wood that attaches to the front seat springs, back and bottom. I've scoured the net....nothing. No notion of fastening, no clue about fastening the rear cushions in place as well.



So, does anyone have FIRST HAND knowledge about '36-'36 phaeton seat spring/wood assemblies and hardware? If you don't know or know anyone who does, please don't answer. (Replies that start with "I don't know but..." mystify me in an info forum.) Any help would be appreciated.

[Brian]

I know something else you don't know- etiquette!
You don't need to come on here with an attitude; you're new here [3 posts], but if you knew anything at all about this forum, you'd get all the help you need FIRST HAND from any number of guys here that are fortunate enough to own a 35-35 phaeton, they will give freely! Might I suggest you go back to your post and edit out your second paragraph?

[Don Rogers]

The bottom seat bottom cushion spring attaches to a wooden frame that sits on top of the floor support. See first (3) photos. The seat back cushion spring attaches directly to the seat back wooden frame. See last (2) photos.

[DavidG]

With respect, Brian, not all of us appreciate well meaning, but way-off-target responses. They muddy the water and leave the poser of the question wondering which are worthwhile and which are not. It is the flip side of etiquette not to respond if you cannot provide a helpful response.

[336Ford]

Thank you so much, Don! I appreciate your response as well, DavidG. Funny, after scouring the net for pix, I found this hidden away in a folder on my computer. The last piece of the puzzle. I'm still not clear on the method of fastening the front seat back spring, but that's workable.





Brian, I understand your perception, but I wasn't trying to be rude. I made what I think is a simple request. I don't understand what prompts people who don't know the answer to a question to fill the forum with, "I don't know, but..." answers. Asking them not to answer isn't really rude. Frankly, Brian, I would have appreciated your response much more if it had something to do with 1936 Ford Phaeton seats, but alas..... It's the internet. The reason I only have 3 posts is because people here have been very rude. Best regards.

[Viv W]

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Your questions are also of interest to me, as I'm building a 35 phaeton. I too got new back rest springs for front and rear, from Snyders, but could not find any pictures to show exactly where the springs attach to the wood frames.
ALL my front seat wooden frame was long gone and I have made up new ones thanks to pictures on this forum and on the net, so I have no old mounting holes to guide me.
I'm assuming the front back rest springs are mounted just above the wooden cross piece at the bottom of the frame, but a couple of pictures showing their positioning would be useful.
It may also be of interest to you that Lebaronbonney and Roy Nacewicz enterprises both offer the front seat base wood to mount your springs onto, however if you compare the offered products, they are not identical. If you need them the choice is yours,
Regards
Viv

[336Ford]

Viv W, I spoke to Roy Nacewicz yesterday. He's no longer carrying any wood. His friend who did the work passed away. Lebaron Bonney no longer carries wood either. The front wood attached to my car is intact, but is different from what is pictured here. I'm noticing that they had several designs, but the base is basically the same. The last pic I posted has a couple of clips on the back cross piece. That front seat upper spring must be fixed with those clips, as the upholstery on that cushion is also affixed to the whole structure. I believe that cushion is the only one that is stationary. The other 3 are removable.

[DavidG]

That's correct, only the front seat back cushion is permanently attached once installed.


The attached photos may be helpful in orienting the front seat back cushion to the front seat back structure.

[336Ford]

Viv W, as I see it, in the last pic I posted you will see a piece of wood that is attached at the top of the front seat structure. It's transverse, and looks to be about 5/8. It's the piece with 2 clips still attached. You'll notice that your front spring is recessed at the top to allow it to fit against that transverse piece of wood. You'll also see that your front backrest spring has 3 clips with screw holes. Those affix to that transverse piece of hardwood. If you look at the pics posted by Don Rogers, that transverse piece of wood is not there. It's also missing from my car, and I'll have to fab it because I don't think anyone makes it.



It seems to me that the best strategy is to upholster the bottom cushion first, then position the top spring to allow the cushions to butt together snugly without gap, but not so tight to displace either. I'm sure Lebaron Bonney could help with a bit more detail on that strategy, or it would be a routine thing for any upholsterer.


If I am wrong about the extra piece of wood that runs from b pillar to b pillar at the top of the structure, I invite someone with a better understanding to bring some clarity to that.

[DavidG]

The two photos that Don posted are of the front seat back from my '35 phaeton (which in regard to the subject at hand is the same as that on a '36, as with mine in the two photos that I posted). Don's photos are part of a series of them that I took for Viv's use awhile ago. I'm the second owner of the '35 and its original upholstery was intact when I started its restoration.


There was no additional piece of wood on either the '35 or the '36 front seat back. The photo below is a closer view than that Don posted and you will note three equally spaced holes where the spring was attached to the wood.


Or perhaps my recollection of the '36 is incorrect and the construction was changed from '35 to '36 as I note that your seat back has three vertical stringers rather than the two on my '35 seat back.


By adding an additional piece you would be decreasing the space between the seat back cushion and the steering wheel, which is already a tight fit for someone of today's average size.


If you would like any additional photos from the series sent to Viv so that you can readily enlarge them, please let me know via a p.m. and I can e-mail them to you.

[uncle buck]

Can I please get some close up pictures of each of the steel brackets used to tie the frame work together? Also maybe some upper corner shots and possibly an upside down shot of how the bottom fits together. Thanks

[336Ford]

I'm convinced at this point that the construction of both front and back seats changed over time. I see some back seats have locator pins, others have tabs that the spring catches on, like mine. Some front seats have locator pins, others use a block of wood, as in the pictures of the seat bottom posted by Don Rogers. That seat bottom had no accommodation for the locator pins. My front seat structure may have been modified, as it has steel strap welded in. I can't tell if that's a repair of original, or a modification. The bottom piece is not angled, like the one posted by Don. My front seat structure back side is solid sheet metal in 3 pieces that covers the whole structure, different from Don's picture. You'll also notice that the seat structure that I'm re-posting (1st pic) does have an extra piece of approximately 5/8 wood running transverse at the top. It's not butted to the upright strips of wood, but is clearly proud by about 5/8". That corresponds to the offset on the new spring that I'm posting as well. That offset is about 5/8".


My back seat wood pivoting structure is quite different from others I've seen, but clearly stock.



Thanks to the swap meet picture posted by Don Rogers, I've extrapolated the measurements of the front seat base and will draft a drawing for anyone who needs to copy it.

[DavidG]

With respect, the front seat bottom base posted by Don does have the two holes for the locating'retaining pins on the seat foundation. That block of wood shown is not to retain the seat cushion in place as it is located at the back of the wood base, not the front. Rather its purpose is to prevent the seat from sagging as it fills the space between the seat bottom frame and the top of the tunnel in the floor pan.


The 5/8" inward offset of the vertical stringers do not show up in Don's photos, but they are there as shown in the photo below.


Also shown is a photo of a '36 seat back from another phaeton that I've had. As with yours, it has the three vertical stringers and is not angled along the bottom horizontal edge.


So there is a difference between at least some of the '35 and '36 phaeton front seat backs (that in Don's and my photos is from a very early '35).

[336Ford]

Terrific help, DavidG! OK, so I was turned around on the seat base, and now that makes sense. I appreciate you explaining the block support under the seat bottom, as well as the homing pins, (for lack of a better term). I talked with Roy Nacewicz, and he doesn't carry those pins. Can anyone explain the backset or routed edge under the perimeter of the seat base? I'm assuming that it just provides for a neater way of finishing the upholstery?


Thanks to everyone who responded. Great help!

[mercman from oz]

Just checked these old pictures of my Australian 1936 Ford Phaeton and notice that the front seat base does not have 10 large holes drilled into it like the base photo that Don posted ? Maybe in Australia, Ford did them differently from the USA factory?

[336Ford]

The pivoting support for the back seat back-rest on my car has no holes either. I see no rationale for them except to keep weight down, but that gain seems nominal compared to the labor. My friend jokingly calls them "speed holes". Everything's faster with speed holes. Note the middle support stringer on your base is 90 degrees to the one Don posted. They may have had breakage and just changed the design.

[Viv W]

Hi,
This is some pictures I have gained over the years from a Kiwi and images from Ebay postings which I thought may be of use to you. Interesting that some seat backs had 2 upright slats and others 3 slats. I had not picked up on that difference, but it would figure that Henry must have decided that only 2 were necessary and it would cut his costs.
Looking at the pictures you have posted, I would say your front seat back has been replaced by a previous owner, at some time in the cars history.
My car was a complete basket case, with most of the wood in the rear tub , the front seat area and the cowl wood all missing. I have downloaded tons of pictures over the years of cars and parts for sale and it has helped me immensely with my project. David too has been very helpful and I am grateful to him and Don for their inputs.
Hope these pictures may help you.
Viv.
35 backrest on ebay.jpg

35 ford seat.jpg

35 ford seat 2.jpg

35 ford seat 3.jpg

35 ford seat 4.jpg

35 V8 rh door pillar.jpg

35 V8 rh door pillar rear.jpg

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[336Ford]

I had a '36 Club Cabriolet. The wood under those seats was not oak or ash, but looked more like poplar or another softer wood. I'm thinking that Henry cut cost and switched to a softer wood, then re-engineered the structures to reflect that, eliminating holes as weight and strength were both less.

[Viv W]

Just seen Davids reply about the 36 seat frame not having an angled piece at the bottom, interesting!!. so perhaps early 35 and late 36 were different.
Btw, I had a scrap spare rear floor from a sedan and took the 2 rear seat locating pegs off that to use on my front seat base frame.
My upholsterer advised, the holes in the seat frame base are to allow air to escape from the seat cushion, when you sit on it. This applies to the seat back too, if you look carefully at my last picture you will see the series of holes along the bottom piece of wood, these serve no other purpose but to allow air to escape.
Viv

[DavidG]

The routed edge on the bottom seat platform is for where the upholstery is tacked into and trimmed to the inner edge so that after tacking it is more or less flush with the surface of the surrounding wood surface.