1914 Model T touring

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill

...but what remains to be seen is what caused it. Overheating? Freezing? How thin is the iron? and most of all, is that the original motor for the car...

The engine number is 346779. If I'm reading my reference book correctly, that would have been around August 1913. The date stamp on the block just above the putty knife blade is: 3 11 13

So if it's not the original motor, I think it's safe to say we're still in the ballpark which is good because the earlier engines had the thicker metal, right?

Once you pull the motor for some work it turns into "shoulda fixed this and shoulda fixed that"...

I hear ya. I'm not going to drop the motor and transmission without an overhaul. I really know nothing about this car and I wouldn't want to drive it any further away from home than I would mind to push it back.

I've heard the gouge on the thrust washers, Kevlar bands and Rocky Mountain brakes. It's these kind of improvements that would make me feel more comfortable about the car's roadworthiness. So this project might take a while. I try to think of it as a journey.

Thanks for the raw egg tip. I think I'll just leave that white cotton fiber stuffed into the radiator fins where it is. Got two of my four new tires mounted and they're both holding air! (My first experience brandishing a tire iron). Those flaps are an excellent investment for a novice like me.

[jesselashcraft]

Howdy -

When I spin the front wheel, there is a slight wobble to it. In other words, there is a 1/2 inch side-to-side difference per revolution. Is that telling me there's a roller bearing issue? As far as I can tell, nothing looks bent and the outside bearing looked OK but I haven't looked at the inside bearing yet.

Also, my owner's manual says the front wheels were slightly "dished." The spokes flared out a bit - concave looking at it from the outside - making the bottom spoke perpendicular to the street since the wheels were cambered outward at the top about 3" more distant from each other than at the bottom. Apparently, this had something to do with taking side stresses better in a turn with less rigid resistance. The back wheels had a flat configuration however.

My question is: how was that accomplished? In a couple of the catalogs, there doesn't seem to be a differentiation between front and back spokes so were all spokes made the same and their angle on the front wheel achieved by the shape of the hub or was there a time when the front spokes were shaved with the appropriate angle making them different from the back spokes?

Since the cars aren't being driven that much anymore (and when they are it's all on improved paved roads), is it possible that people have just transitioned to straight spokes all around over the years?

[jesselashcraft]

My reference book says that car numbers from 332501 to 539000 were produced from 1 Oct 13 to 31 Jul 14. If you take the difference of the two, you get 206449. Divide by 10 months to get 20,650 cars manufactured roughly every month.

My car's ship number is 409023. Would it be safe to assume it came off the line sometime in mid January 1914?

[Royce P]

There are no spokes sold in the catalogs for 1914 model year. The spokes in the catalogs are the type used from 1919 - 1927 when the cars were equipped with demountable wood wheels. Those wheels are completely unlike the wheels that go on your car.

The front 30 X 3 wheels (24" rim diameter) that came on your 1914 originally are slightly "dished" in towards the center when viewed from the outside. The rear wheels on your 1914 are 30 X 3 1/2" tire size. The rear rim diameter is 23". The rear wheels are not dished.

The wheels on your car have to be made or repaired by wheelwrights. Several good ones provide this service. The shape of the spokes determines the "dish" on the front wheels. It is very complex yet archaic technology that is now yours to preserve for future generations.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

Howdy -

When I spin the front wheel, there is a slight wobble to it. In other words, there is a 1/2 inch side-to-side difference per revolution. Is that telling me there's a roller bearing issue? As far as I can tell, nothing looks bent and the outside bearing looked OK but I haven't looked at the inside bearing yet.

Also, my owner's manual says the front wheels were slightly "dished." The spokes flared out a bit - concave looking at it from the outside - making the bottom spoke perpendicular to the street since the wheels were cambered outward at the top about 3" more distant from each other than at the bottom. Apparently, this had something to do with taking side stresses better in a turn with less rigid resistance. The back wheels had a flat configuration however.

My question is: how was that accomplished? In a couple of the catalogs, there doesn't seem to be a differentiation between front and back spokes so were all spokes made the same and their angle on the front wheel achieved by the shape of the hub or was there a time when the front spokes were shaved with the appropriate angle making them different from the back spokes?

Since the cars aren't being driven that much anymore (and when they are it's all on improved paved roads), is it possible that people have just transitioned to straight spokes all around over the years?

[Royce P]

The reference books are referring to the motor number. This is not the number on the firewall patent plate. Your engine block has a casting date. The car would typically be shipped within a week after the engine block was cast.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

My reference book says that car numbers from 332501 to 539000 were produced from 1 Oct 13 to 31 Jul 14. If you take the difference of the two, you get 206449. Divide by 10 months to get 20,650 cars manufactured roughly every month.

My car's ship number is 409023. Would it be safe to assume it came off the line sometime in mid January 1914?

[jesselashcraft]

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Originally Posted by Royce P

The shape of the spokes determines the "dish" on the front wheels.

Hi Royce -

Since I made that post, I put a square on an extra hub that came with the car and concluded it must be the shape of the spoke that created the concave "dish." Appreciate the confirmation.

I've been in touch with the Noah Stutzman. As it turns out, their establishment is about an hour from where I grew up and will be spending Thanksgiving so I'm planning a side trip. My understanding is they're pretty good at it.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

Your engine block has a casting date. The car would typically be shipped within a week after the engine block was cast.

In the back of "From Here To Obscurity," they list the car number and the engine number with inclusive dates. They caution that some minor discrepancies exist between all the lists out there but I'm starting to think the engine for this car was replaced with a 1913 motor at some point. The engine number cold stamped into the block just above the water inlet is: 346779 (according to my book, probably put together in the summer of 1913). The raised casting date just to the right of the inlet is 3 11 13.

Incidentally, there is a number on the right backside of the radiator in the
"Ford Motor Co. Detroit Mich." stamp: No. 0722640
Not sure if that's helpful.

[Royce P]

Sounds like the block has been re - stamped too. Your car has the look of a 1950's or 1960's restoration that was not stored well. I would pick a different block if I were going to restore that car, one with a 1914 model year casting date. The 1913 block will sell for enough money to pay for the upgrade to a block that matches the body.

[Royce P]

Tell Noah hello for me. His family does fabulous work. I have more wheels to send to him right now for my '15.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

Sounds like the block has been re - stamped too.

Hi Royce -

I made a mistake on the block casting date. Checking with a flashlight this time and getting right up next to it, it's not 3 11 13 as I mentioned before, it's: 8 11 13.

Does that make more sense?

I'll pass your regards to Noah. I'm looking forward to seeing their operation.

[J Franklin]

People forget that Ford used up old supplies in later cars and your block could have been taken off line for re-machining and put in a later body.

[Royce P]

OK that block is a good match for that body. The dash tag is now the part that does not work exactly right. You can get a replacement dash tag. RV Anderson can stamp it with a number that is more appropriate.

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

Hi Royce -

I made a mistake on the block casting date. Checking with a flashlight this time and getting right up next to it, it's not 3 11 13 as I mentioned before, it's: 8 11 13.

Does that make more sense?

I'll pass your regards to Noah. I'm looking forward to seeing their operation.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

The dash tag is now the part that does not work exactly right. You can get a replacement dash tag.

You lost me. Are you talking about the brass plate on the dashboard?

[Royce P]

Right.

Something on your car was changed over the years. The dash mounted "Patent Plate" number is way higher than your engine VIN. The easy fix would be to replace the dash tag with a number that is more believable. Here's a comparison of original VS reproduction:

Originally Posted by jesselashcraft

You lost me. Are you talking about the brass plate on the dashboard?

[jesselashcraft]

Hey fellas -

Going through the process of pulling the engine and transmission for a total makeover and I see I have this switch below the coil box. One wire went to ground (the same post goes to a screw on the hogshead cover plate) and the other wire is broken off. The switch itself is a simple pull/push type.

Anyone have any guesses of what this might have been used for? After market accessory? I doubt if it's electric running lights. I don't see where those lights would have been mounted. That would have left a mark.

Give me your best guesses.

[Steve Jelf]

Whatever that switch is for, it didn't come from the factory that way. I don't believe Ford ever mounted a switch in the dash shield, and there were no electric lights on Fords before the 1915 model year.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill

...POSSIBLY indicating a crack that is leaking.

Hey fellas -

My biggest concern, the block, is repairable. Having the "drill & stitch" method done this holiday season.

Got the radiator back from the shop. Had a new core installed. More tubes, oval tubes and a louver arrangement on the fins for more surface area. I hear the brass cars were notorious for overheating. I plan on installing engine pans on this car in another attempt at sufficient cooling.

The radiator looked a little rough when I got it back but it cleaned up well.

Fenders, splash aprons and running board are in the paint shop. There's a little rust that will have to be addressed. The wheels are cleaning up nicely.

[jesselashcraft]

Originally Posted by Royce P

The date, followed by a body maker's assembly number, is stamped into the wood seat frame where the yellow arrow points.

Finally found it. It was almost worn off and in a rough cut part of the board.
So I think this is all the numbers:

Body date/number: 1 14 70535
Transmission stub shaft date: 2 7 14
Ship number: 409023
Engine/serial number: 346779 (9/25/13)
Engine casting date: 8 11 13
Head casting date: 2 6

Are there any other numbers of interest?

Originally Posted by Royce P

The dash tag is now the part that does not work exactly right.

Tell me more about the "FORD CAR NO" on the brass plate fellas. Larry Smith was saying the engine number is normally a higher number than the ship number which leads me to believe that the motor may have been swapped out for an earlier made engine at some point. J Franklin has an interesting theory that the engine could have been taken off line for re-machining and put in a later car.

I got to tell you, I'm pretty relieved I don't have to go looking for another block.

[centaurdave]

Ron Miller in Shandon, OH. has a couple of 1614 Ford Tourings. He is a great source of information. He is on the west side of Cinnci. Give him a call. His shop phone is, 513-738-7353. Dave

[centaurdave]

Typeing is not my strong suite. Should have been 1914 Ford. Dave